Talk:Deaths in February 2009

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Ivan Cameron[edit]

Now, it says at the top of this page that it is a list of notable deaths, not of deaths of notable people. Ivan Cameron may not have been notable in his own right, but his death certainly was. It has garnered multiple press coverage, and caused a suspension of the British parliament. Let's put him on the list and have a discussion here about it, not just engage in a revert war. Admins in particular should know better. Chris (talk) 16:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think that the arguments for/against Ivan Cameron's inclusion will be identical to those for/against Jett Travolta:[[1]] so here is a quick link to that discussion. I agree with Rodhullandemu. sgleason818 (talk) 16:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC) fixed my login name and Rod's spelling[reply]
This is a perennial issue, and consensus seems to be strongly that we do not report deaths of non-notable children of famous people; policy is that notability is not inherited, and my view is that we should stick with both policy and consensus. As for "Admins should know better", how about WP:AGF that we understand both? --Rodhullandemu 16:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the BBC have it as their lead news story, as do ITV. It has been reported all day above the plane crash in the Netherlands, which has made the front page of the entire site. Prime Minister's questions was postponed - the first time any death has caused this, so how can it not be noteworthy? Ade1982 (talk) 20:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whilst I will agree that the aftermath of Ivan's death is somewhat unusual, that in itself doesn't make him, or his death itself, notable within our policies. The page header is misleading, but it is generally taken that deaths of notable people (and, FWIW, animals) are reported here; notability is generally predicated on that they have either passed our standard to have their own article, or are likely to do so- that's why we tolerate redlinks for up to a month, to alert interested editors that an article may need to be written. But throughout the encyclopedia, both policy and consensus prescribe that notability (however tragic) is not inherited. For example, we have Kidnapping of Shannon Matthews, but not Shannon Matthews (except as a redirect}, the reason being that she herself is not notable at present, yet the circumstances of her kidnap are. One might try to argue from that that, OK, we shouldn't have an article for Ivan Cameron but we should have an article for Death of Ivan Cameron; however, historically, we have never had such an article as far as I am aware, and nor (IMO) should we, unless it's almost an earth-shattering event. Sympathies aside, I don't believe this is what an encyclopedia is intended to provide. --Rodhullandemu 20:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying there should be a seperate article for Ivan. What I'm saying is that it is completely pointless to omit the information here, and have a redirect page.--HootlePooch (talk) 23:00, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With the best will in the world, an encyclopedia, even an online one, is not a news service; we have Wikinews, and there exist other services for that function. It is in the traditional nature of encyclopedias that they retrospectively provide cogent information, mostly based upon a considered, but not necessarily unbiased, review of available sources. Britannica, for example, cannot claim to be up to date, because their principal mode of distribution is through sales or subscription, and their print version cannot hope to be as up to date as we can. Having said that, Britannica is a different type of encyclopedia. --Rodhullandemu 23:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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