Talk:Denton E. Rebok

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WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 11:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sources about Rebok[edit]

This section intends to make available for interested editors sources which may be helpful to this article: DonaldRichardSands (talk) 23:10, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Primary Sources by Rebok:[edit]

(none listed yet)

Secondary Sources published by the Seventh-day Adventist Church:[edit]

1. Rebok played a pivotal role in the church's christology.

  • Zurcher, Jean Rudolf (author); White, Edward E. (translator) (1999). Touched with Our Feelings: A Historical Survey of Adventist Thought on the Human Nature of Christ: Translation of: Le Christ Manifeste en Chair. Review and Herald Publishing Association. pp. 153–155. ISBN 0-8280-1330-6. {{cite book}}: |first1= has generic name (help)

Some facts about Rebok mentioned in this work:

  1. In 1949 the Review and Herald Publishing Association requested Professor D. E. Rebok, president of the Adventist Theological Seminary, Washington, D.C. to review the text of the book Bible Readings for the Home Circle,(3) in preparation for a new edition.
  2. Rebok oversaw changes in the wording appearing in the 1958 edition of Bible Readings for the Home Circle. These changes altered the presentation of the human nature of Christ.

The copyright page of this book contains a disclaimer:

The views of this book are those of the author and not necessarily those of the publisher. They are presented to facilitate further exploration of this subject. The author assumes full responsibility for the accuracy of all facts and quotations as cited in this book.

This book is unusual in that most books published by the church do not address controversial matters so openly. The church is divided regarding the human nature of Christ. Some advocate that Christ inherited "sinful human flesh" while others oppose that teaching. Neither group advocates that Jesus sinned.

Rebok's role in changing the wording to Bible Readings puts him in the midst of this controversy. The wider Christian community have criticized Adventists for holding to the "sinful human nature" of Christ doctrine.

Knight writes:

...we should note that the controversial notes in the 1915 through 1949 printings of Bible Readings had not appeared in any of the printings between 1888 and 1915. W. A. Colcord had added them in 1915. It was his additions that Rebok revised in 1949.

2. Delafield recommends Rebok's book, Believe His Prophets, to the church.

...A rather large assortment of pamphlets and books have been prepared,

down through the years, with a view to informing the church concerning the prophetic gift in its midst and answering these questions and many similar ones. We will not take the space here to itemize this list of books and papers, but we do wish to call the attention of our people to an excellent volume that has just come from the press entitled, Believe His Prophets, by Denton Edward Rebok, who for some time was associated with the Ellen G. White Publications office in Washington.

This volume was prepared by Elder Rebok in response to frequent demands for his studies in printed form. Those who have attended Elder Rebok's meetings in our churches, at gatherings of our workers, and in our summer camp meetings Will remember the deep impressions that were made as he spoke on such themes as, "The Relation of E. G. White to the Bible," "Mrs. White's Message on Health," or "Bible Tests of a True Prophet."

His new book, Believe His Prophets, is a combination of the very finest material that he has given in his public work in behalf of the prophetic gift—at the Bible Conference in 1952, workers meetings at home and overseas, and more particularly at the camp meetings. For those who wish to be better informed concerning Mrs. White and her work, we heartily recommend this excellent volume by Elder Rebok. It may be secured through your Book and Bible

House. ...

Secondary Sources published independent of the SDA Church, yet related:[edit]

(none listed yet)

Secondary Sources with no relation to the SDA Church:[edit]

1955, Rebok serves as a General Field Secretary of the SDA General Conference.

This is a minor mention of Rebok as a speaker. It is useful as a third party source to note his leadership status with the church.

  • Derby, Errol H. ed. (Thursday July 7, 1955). "Convention Opens". Greensburg Daily Tribune, City edition. 71 (26). Greensburg, PA: Tribune Review Publishing Company: 2. Retrieved 2012-January-4. {{cite journal}}: |first= has generic name (help); Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)

Somerset, Pa. (UP) - The annual summer Bible convention of the Western Pennsylvania Converence of the Seventh - Day Adventists begins tonight at Edgewood Grove, near here.

Andrew J. Robbins, president of the state conference, will deliver the opening address.

Speakers Friday will include Denton E. Rebok, general field secretary of the General Conference and Leslie Hardinge, head of the Bible department of Washington Missionary College, Takoma Park, Md.

An ordination ceremony for two ministers, Harvey Sauder, DuBois, and John Kroncke, Lewiston, will highlight the Saturday session of the 10-day convention, which ends July 17.

  • This is both a mere bare-mention ("Speakers Friday will include Denton E. Rebok, general field secretary of the General Conference") and bltatantly WP:ROUTINE coverage ("routine news coverage of such things as announcements"). It therefore does not add notability, nor is it (per WP:NOTNEWSPAPER) suitable for inclusion in the article. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 02:57, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

routine news coverage of such things as announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism are not sufficient basis for an article.

  • As I look over the WP:ROUTINE paragraph, it seems to me the concern is not to base an article on a routine item. The event announced, in this case, is not the benefit of the news item. Rather, it is a third party source for Rebok's position as a general field secretary of the General Conference. The routine paragraph mentions obituaries. An obituary is not the basis for an article, but certainly it provides a secondary source for information about the person. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 15:24, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • (i) Please reread WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, referenced above -- which is about inclusion, not just notability (and 'basing an article'). (ii) Patchworking together an article from slivers of tangential mentions (like Rebok's position) makes for very poor articles. This is explicitly why WP:Notability demands that coverage be "significant" (which it defines as "sources address [that] the subject directly in detail"). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 16:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. Thanks. I have been patchworking, I guess. Your point is well-taken. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1940s, in China, Rebok is described as a severe, dogmatic, authoritarian principal: Gu Chang-Sheng describes his school experiences. Rebok served as his principal in the lower grades. The principal and teachers in the school of the higher grades receive a more positive description.

The school's English name was the China Training Institute. The principal was Pastor Rebok. p. 21

Chang-sheng grew up in an Adventist home and attended the China Training Institute, an Adventist school. His description of the school and Rebok, in particular, is less than flattering, to say the least. Chang-sheng provides a rare insight into Adventist education in China in the 1940s. Though Rebok and a few others are described as severely authoritarian, some of the other teachers receive positive treatment from Chang-sheng.

Rebok preached against evolution for the entire week of "Prayer Week". He pressured students to confess their sins and denounced Chang-sheng for his unsupportive attitude. Chang-sheng describes a disturbing book-burning incident led by Rebok. Chang-sheng next attended an Adventist senior high school and junior college. He found the staff at this school more positive and helpful.

  • "AuthorHouse, formerly known as 1stBooks, is a self-publishing company based in the United States". Please do at least a basic check of the publisher (particularly those with unknown and/or generic-sounding names) before offering them as sources. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 04:51, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And please observe chronological order on talkpages, and sign your posts -- so we can work out what was added when. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 04:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC) [reply]

The Delafield piece[edit]

I took the liberty of OCRing the full piece:

The office of the Ellen G. White publications, at the General Conference headquarters in Takoma Park, receives many letters of inquiry from Seventh-day Adventists at home and abroad seeking information about Sister White, her life, and her writings. Not only lifetime Adventists, but new converts are eager to know more about this remarkable person and the prophetic gift that she exercised in the remnant church.

"Are all her writings inspired—not only the books, but the unpublished manuscripts?" "Will there be another prophet in the Seventh.dav Adventist Church?" "Do the counsels given to this people during the seventy years of Mrs. White's ministry (1844-1915) apply with equal force to the church today?" These are a few of the questions raised by our people who are eager to know the truth about these vital matters.

A rather large assortment of pamphlets and books have been prepared, down through the years, with a view to informing the church concerning the prophetic gift in its midst and answering these questions and many similar ones. We will not take the space here to itemize this list of books and papers, but we do wish to call the attention of our people to an excellent volume that has just come from the press entitled, Believe His Prophets, by Denton Edward Rebok, who for some time was associated with the Ellen G. White Publications office in Washington.

This volume was prepared by Elder Rebok in response to frequent demands for his studies in printed form. Those who have attended Elder Rebok's meetings in our churches, at gatherings of our workers, and in our summer camp meetings will remember the deep impressions that were made as he spoke on such themes as, "The Relation of E. G. White to the Bible," "Mrs. White's Message on Health," or "Bible Tests of a True Prophet."

His new book, Believe His Prophets, is a combination of the very finest material that he has given in his public work in behalf of the prophecic gift—at the Bible Conference in 1952, workers meetings at home and overseas, and more particularly at the camp meetings. For those who wish to be better informed concerning Mrs. White and her work, we heartily recommend this excellent volume by Elder Rebok. It may be secured through your Book and Bible House. Those of our people who serve as teachers in our schools, ministers in our churches, conference presidents, Bible instructors, physicians, nurses, and others who may desire a more technical, documented treatment of the subject, should also secure Ellen G. White, Messenger to the Remnant, by Arthur L. White. This little volume is available through the Ellen G. White Publications office in Takoma Park.

This piece is completely lacking in anything even vaguely resembling objectivity. That it isn't even remotely third-party should be abundantly clear. It is a rather extreme example of why many editors, myself included, do not consider SDA publications particularly appropriate sources on SDA topics (the sort that should be used only minimally, and with care). The article in question is clearly promotional and thus a WP:QS (usable here only to the extent that it meets WP:ABOUTSELF). Whilst most SDA publications won't go so far, they are likely to demonstrate a degree of both partiality and tunnel-vision that makes them less-than-desirable as sources. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 03:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree that Delafield does not present an objective report. However, some facts can be derived from his report, nonetheless:
  1. Rebok worked for the White Estate for a period of time.
  2. Rebok's book consists of material he presented in public lectures, including as part of the 1952 Bible Conference.
  3. His book is, in part, a response to requests for printed material following such lectures.

DonaldRichardSands (talk) 07:51, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • (i) Given that he was apparently Chairperson of the Ellen G. White Estate, that he worked for it is hardly new information. (ii) It isn't in the least bit uncommon for academics to repackage lectures as books. (iii) Given the promotional nature of the piece, the rather woolly and self-serving claim that it was "a response to requests" is hardly useful. I'm really not seeing what, of any particular substance, this source adds to the picture. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 08:54, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand your point. Rebok is somewhat notable as an academic, as the AfD discussion addressed. The Delafield piece documents his prominent role within Adventism. Very few authors get such a strong endorsement in the Review. Rebok's book, "Believe His Prophets", added to his notability within the denomination. Compare this to his role in shifting Adventist christology. His book's promotion of Ellen G. White similarly put him further into the denominational spotlight. That being said, I have no wish to include information in the article without a full agreement, including yours. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 14:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, all it "documents" is the complete lack of editorial independence of this publication. Delafield isn't acting as a journalist, he's acting as a PR hack. Because of this lack of independence, it is impossible to ascertain how prominent his "role within Adventism" is without third party commentary. And I'll "compare this to his role in shifting Adventist christology" when you actually provide WP:Secondary sources that explicitly analyse this themselves (rather than relying on your own WP:Synthesis of what appears to be very tangential material). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 16:30, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Froom on Rebok, Secondary Source, Adventist published[edit]

DENTON EDWARD REBOK

  • (b. 1897),
  • trained at WMC, Columbia University, and University of Nanking.
  • Missionary,
  • South China Union (1917-20);
  • president, Shanghai Missionary College—first coeducational and industrial institution in China (1920-23):
  • educational and MV secretary, China Division.
  • Bible teacher, WMC (1940-42);
  • president, Southern Junior College (1942-43);
  • secretary, MV Department, GC (1943);
  • president, SDA Theological Seminary (1943-51);
  • president, White Trustees (1951-52);
  • secretary of GC (1952-54);
  • general field secretary, GC (1954-1957);
  • author of five books (two in Chinese).

Third party sourcing[edit]

  • The LA Times has a 439-word 1953 piece about "Denton E. Rebok, general secretary of the Adventist de- nomination from Washington, " DC, told the delegates that a policy of assistance involving physical ... "(subscription required)
  • And a 215 word 1960 piece about "Too often a minister's work consists of sitting on committees, attending conventions, supervising campaigns and speaking to service clubs, a Seventh-day Adventist leader [apparently Rebok] said at the opening of a ministerial con-..."(subscription required)

I don't have a subscription for these unfortunately. I will add more as I find them. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 17:05, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rebok's association with Prescott[edit]

Valentine, Gilbert M. (2005). W.W. Prescott: forgotten giant of adventism's second generation. Review and Herald Publishing Association. p. 323. ISBN 0-8280-1892-8.

Denton E. Rebok, a teacher from the nearby seminary, was one, for example, who used to spend hours visiting with the professor (Prescott). "I loved to probe into his mind, his heart,...then listen intently as he poured out his thoughts in a flow of rich delightful language." According to Rebok, it was Prescott who taught him to think. He was "an intellectual giant, a prince in Israel."

  • Yes, I noticed that -- but as Review and Herald Publishing Association is hardly third-party, I didn't think it worth bringing up. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 17:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gilbert Valentine is a careful and balanced scholar. Your concern for third-party sources (i.e. non-Adventist) seems too stringent, IMO. I don't think a very informative article can be developed under such stringent avoidance of Adventist secondary sources. Perhaps the question needs to be asked, why is this source unreliable?, unacceptable? DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:28, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps Adventist sources demonstrating balanced scholarship, including citations, should be considered acceptable. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict)Are you claiming that the former Chairman of the Ellen G. White Estate would not have considerable influence (even posthumously) with the Review and Herald Publishing Association? I find that hard to credit. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 17:37, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • And one of my points is that Adventists write quite obsessively (as you yourself demonstrate) about Adventist matters. This means that coverage in Adventist sources cannot be taken as indicative of noteworthiness. Also, if the vast majority of material about Adventism is written from an Adventist viewpoint, it raises issues of balance. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 17:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your concern has not been without its effect. I have been trying to broaden my scope. The John Gribbin article is a recent example. Balance in the SDA articles certainly needs to be valued. In your opinion, regarding this Rebok article, should it be short and dependent on a majority of third party sources? Have we gone as far as we can in improving this article? I have decided that if we work on the same article, I will not get into long disagreements as we have in the past. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:57, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although not subject to the limitations of a paper encyclopaedia, Wikipedia still cannot attempt to include all information ever published in a reliable source. Such a collection would most likely (i) be impossible to make coherent and (ii) most probably not resemble anything recognisable as an encyclopaedia. One of the main filtering mechanisms Wikipedia has in place is coverage by third parties (by which we generally mean sources outside the topic's immediate ideological community, so that the predominant viewpoint is that of outsiders not insiders). This is needed not only for an article topic as a whole, but also for major subtopics. Rebok may have been an ardent butterfly collector (or train-spotter or fly fisherman), but if no third party take significant note of it Wikipedia likewise does not cover this aspect. This is to a considerable extent related to Wikipedia's explicit focus on avoiding WP:Original research. Not only do we rely on what reliable third-parties say, we rely on what they think is worth taking note of. I think there's still a bit more to be mined (e.g. the LAT pieces I cited above), but I'm afraid that the way the outside world saw Rebok was largely as 'an Adventist denomination official who spoke at Adventist conferences'. I'm fairly sure that this isn't a particularly well-rounded assessment, but this is perhaps an indication of the SDA's lack of engagement with the wider community. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 18:29, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Chronology and sources for Rebok[edit]

1917
WE are glad to learn that two recruits are on the way to the Asiatic Division. Brother and Sister Dentoii E. Rebok sailed August 2, on the "Empress of Russia," for China. They have been in attendance at the Washington Missionary College, Sister Rebok was formerly Miss Florence Kneeland, of the Canal Zone, Panama, daughter of Elder W. G. Kneeland, president of the West Caribbean Conference.[1]

References for Rebok chronology[edit]

  1. ^ Wilcox, F. E. editor (August 16, 1917). "We are glad to learn..." (PDF). Review and Hearld. 94 (33). Washington, D.C.: Reveiw and Herald Publishing Association: 24. Retrieved 2010-April-05. {{cite journal}}: |first= has generic name (help); Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
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