Talk:Dialogues of the Carmelites

France Low‑importance

	France portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Opera

This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Opera, a group writing and editing Wikipedia articles on operas, opera terminology, opera composers and librettists, singers, designers, directors and managers, companies and houses, publications and recordings. The project discussion page is a place to talk about issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!OperaWikipedia:WikiProject OperaTemplate:WikiProject OperaOpera articles

Classical music: Compositions

	Classical music portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music articles
	This article is supported by Compositions task force.

Comment[edit]

This doesn't have redirection from Dialogues des Carmélites, so I wasn't able to find it at first. Kleinzach 21:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what the official standard is, but browsing on the Category:Operas page, it seems to me that the majority of the operas are listed by the title in the original language, but there are exceptions such as The_Flying_Dutchman_(opera) or The_Queen_of_Spades -- perhaps because these operas are better known in the US by their English titles? I suggest that you create a page for Les_dialogues_des_Carmélites and either have that page redirect here, or the other way around. (I'd do it myself but it apparently requires signing up for a Wikipedia account.) 67.186.28.212 21:01, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

was EMI recording cast the premiere cast?[edit]

Hello, I was wondering if the cast on the EMI recording is exactly the same as the cast in the Paris premiere. If so, then I (or anyone else who owns it) could just type in the rest of the cast from the CD liner notes. Thanks. --Kyoko 12:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The EMI recording is also available as disks 11 and 12 of the "Francis Poulenc: Oeuvres Completes" box set. The cast appears to be the same, in which case the accompanying booklet expands the incomplete names of some of the singers: Michel Forel, Janine Fourrier, Gisele Desmoutiers [with a grave accent on the first e of Gisele], Raphael Romagnoni. 86.4.253.180 (talk) 16:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Title: Dialogues or The Dialogues?[edit]

Re this page move: Can we have a cite, pls? Even with a cite, I'd need some convincing to be happy with this move, as the opera is almost always referred to, both in French and English, without the definite article. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I have never heard it referred to as The Dialogues of the Carmelites. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 21:05, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Song at the scaffold[edit]

I have had to make repeated reverts to the entry, as many people seem to be under the impression that the hymn the nuns sing on their way to execution is the Salve Regina. The opera guide by Charles Osborne is quoted as referring to it as being this. If the quote is correct, it would appear that author's knowledge of Catholic practice is not as extensive as it is of the opera world.

The doxology which Blanche sings is not a part of the Salve, but is the concluding part of the Veni Creator Spiritus. The texts are provided in the entries on both and can be compared.

Furthermore, the Veni would be the appropriate hymn for the situation, as it is used for the ceremonies at which people offer their lives to God, such as the ordinations of the clergy and the religious profession of a monk or nun. By extension, it is the appropriate one for the self-sacrifice of martyrdom offered by the nuns.

I hope that this can be agreed upon and the text left undisturbed. Daniel the Monk (talk) 16:56, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The nuns do sing the Salve Regina as they ascend the scaffold; Blanche then sings 'Deo patri sit gloria', from the Veni Creator Spiritus as she goes to join them. I can't comment on the theological sense or nonsense this makes, but it is still what happens. The following links are active as of the time of writing, and show recordings of the final scene; the words are unmistakable - and the first link even has subtitles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RGSLSYXIek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lb3LYai5-4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ubBODy4N0

The Metropolitan Opera's synopsis of the opera also refers to the Salve Regina:

http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/history/stories/synopsis.aspx?customid=38

41.42.22.36 (talk) 10:18, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that video. It does answer my questioning. The issue was not theological, but rather the simple logic of the text. I am so used to the general public misidentifying religious matters, both here and elsewhere, that I am skeptical of something that doesn't make sense until it is verified.

Actually, from a religious perspective, and knowing Carmelite spiritually, seeing the actual combination of the two hymns shows how either Poulenc or Bernanos, both of whom certainly knew Catholic traditions, took a rather powerful and innovative step with this text. Daniel the Monk (talk) 22:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you're convinced - but this does beg the question, what were you doing making "repeated reverts" to the text, back to the wrong information, if you hadn't heard the opera or read anything else about it? I've never seen gut instinct listed as an acceptable justification for making an edit... 41.42.16.111 (talk) 12:18, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Misidentification of Lavery as librettist[edit]

Several articles that incorrectly identify Emmet Lavery as the librettist of Dialogues of the Carmelites include these:

New York Times, John J O'Connor, 6 May 1987
New York Times, 23 February 1994 (but, unlike O'Connor, and to be fair to Allan Kozinn, it is the 'credits' text that is incorrect, and I suspect that he did not write that list himself, because he correctly identifies Joseph Machlis as the English translator]