Talk:Djamaa el Kebir

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A fact from Djamaa el Kebir appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 November 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Great Mosque of Algiers (pictured) is the oldest mosque in Algiers and is said to be the second oldest mosque in Algeria?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2010/November.

Wikipedia

Relation to Djamaa al Djazair[edit]

There is also an article named The Great Mosque of Algiers. What is the exact relation between the two? --Dick Bos (talk) 14:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Move (back) to "Great Mosque of Algiers"[edit]

I note that the opposite was done in 2017, but I think this page should really be moved (back) to "Great Mosque of Algiers", as that is what the building is known as in English and in most English-language literature. General English readers won't look for "Djamaa el Kebir", plus that name also applies to all "Great Mosques" across many cities and countries, so it's a bit inconsistent unfortunately to have this page adopt this generic Arabic transliteration as a name while others don't. The spelling of the Arabic transliteration itself also varies and there typically isn't one standard way of spelling it (you also find "Jami' al Kabir", "Djemaa el-Kebir", "Djama'a al-Kabir", etc). I don't know if the move was done out of concern about disambiguating this page with Djamaa el Djazaïr? Since the latter mosque is much more recent and this page is about the city's main historic "Great Mosque" that's been around for centuries, arguably this one should just be titled "Great Mosque of Algiers" period and the other page can either keep its current name (especially since that name does come up if you google it) or use some other disambiguation strategy like adding in parenthesis the year of completion, or the neighborhood it's in, etc; or even translating it literally as "Mosque of Algiers" (without "Great"). Either way, we can of course add a "For..." tag at the top of the page to redirect readers as needed.
I don't want to move the page against consensus, so it'd be great to hear from other editors. Cheers, Robert Prazeres (talk) 17:35, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 25 February 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved.

result:
No consensus. See no agreement below to rename these pages as proposed, so the status quo will remain in place for now. As is usual with no-consensus outcomes, editors can strengthen their arguments and try again in a few months to garner consensus for these page moves. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth ed. ^put'r there 04:24, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Links: current log • target log

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Djamaa el Kebir → Great Mosque of Algiers
Great Mosque of Algiers → ?

– To conform to WP:COMMONNAME (the mosque is normally called "Great Mosque of Algiers" in all scholarly literature), WP:USEENGLISH (the current name is a direct transliteration of Arabic that most English speakers would not look for), and also to disambiguate from every other "Great Mosque" whose name would also be "(D)jamaa el-Kebir" in Arabic (not to mention the problem that there are multiple different transliteration conventions people use). I'm aware there's another page that the current DAB also lists, Djamaa el Djazaïr, but as noted above, if there really is an ambiguity, this should still be the primary topic and a "For" header link should simply be included. See also explanation in previous talk section above. R Prazeres (talk) 00:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC) —Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth ed. ^put'r there 06:19, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Great Mosque of Algiers titles a page with content and so it must also be dispositioned. If this request is granted Great Mosque of Algiers may be deleted or moved to Great Mosque of Algiers (disambiguation) and tagged with {{One other topic}} in accordance with WP:ONEOTHER. P.I. Ellsworth ed. ^put'r there 02:55, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, noted. My suggestion is to delete the disambiguation page, since there are only two possible entries (and there's unlikely to be more) so a DAB is not needed as per WP:ONEOTHER. Both pages already have hatnote links to each other. R Prazeres (talk) 01:54, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose While "Great Mosque of Algiers" is the WP:COMMONNAME of two mosques in Algiers, this one and Djamaa el Djazaïr, there is no question that the latter is the most famous of the two (you'll find that the overwhelming majority of the sources that mention the "Great Mosque of Algiers" and its French equivalent "Grande mosquée d'Alger" will be referring to it); and given its importance (third largest Mosque in the world, tallest minaret in the world, etc) and the fact that it's more than a simple Mosque (with its institute, museum, library, etc.), this trend will only be heading one way. This doesn't mean that we should make Djamaa el Djazaïr the primary target (not yet, anyway) nor does it take anything away from the this mosque and its historical importance; that's why I believe that the current DAB is doing its job perfectly, giving the reader both a choice and an opportunity to learn something along the way. M.Bitton (talk) 01:55, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If so, great, although by far the most common name for this mosque in any English or French source is also "Great Mosque of Algiers"/"Grande mosquée d'Alger" or equivalent, so I don't think it's so clear-cut. But given that, an amended proposal would be to have both titled "Great Mosque of Algiers" and either one or both given some other disambiguation device as I partially suggested in previous section. Either way, this current name doesn't fit WP:CRITERIA at all, so it needs to change. If you can think of any disambiguation strategies that would help (or any other similar set of pages we could compare to), it would be appreciated. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 02:18, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized my first sentence there was poorly explained. But a better point anyways is that "Djamaa El Djazair" seems to be cited frequently as an official, local, or alternate name for the new mosque even in English news and academic publications (e.g. here, here, here, here (see page 276 if you can access the full book), here, here, and here). So at least the current title there is an actual common name for the monument in English sources. It's arguably an acceptable "natural disambiguation" as per WP:PRECISION: "Using an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title." Whereas there's no other good name for the old "Great Mosque of Algiers" I can think of that would be acceptable under WP:CRITERIA, as the current name is not used in English (other than in the trivial case of Archnet and MuseumWithNoFrontiers which use Arabic names indistinctively) and is unfortunately imprecise by itself as it can refer to a large number of congregational mosques in Arabic-speaking countries. But again, other disambiguating strategies would be highly welcome. R Prazeres (talk) 06:34, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose removing the French name for the mosque from the article.[edit]

It is not an official name of the mosque and is not an official language of the country anyway. It feels odd to translate Arabic terms to French on English versions of Islamic articles. Kurdish Elf (talk) 15:57, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a duplicate of a discussion topic about French names on Algerian topics already in progress at Talk:Algeria. Please comment at the original discussion(s) there to avoid fragmenting the discussion. The most recent is one is Talk:Algeria#Noting four similar discussions about French usage at other Algeria-related articles. Mathglot (talk) 03:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]