Talk:Dnipro/Archive 3

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

High time to rename the article

It is high time to rename the article. Finding news in English from the last month in Google does not indicate that the name of Dnipropetrovsk prevailed: https://www.google.pl/search?q=dnipro&oq=dnipro&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l2j69i61j0l2.1914j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=dnipro&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:m https://www.google.pl/search?q=dnipropetrovsk&oq=dnipropetrovsk&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l2j69i61j0l2.1914j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#tbs=qdr:m&tbm=nws&q=dnipropetrovsk The old name in the search results mainly refers to the name of the Dnipropetrovsk region (unchanged) and the proper name: "FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk". The new city name is used in most city articles (f.e. Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/article/auchan-ukraine-acquisition-idUSL8N1JH4QV). The new name is also used in Encyclopedia Britannica https://www.britannica.com/place/Dnipropetrovsk-Ukraine (check the article, not only address) Ales sandro (talk) 15:20, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Your google links are from Polish, not English. So they are completely irrelevant to this discussion. The Reuters article, however, is a high-quality source and is actually what we have been asking for proponents of the article name change to provide for months--evidence in contemporary English language sources that the usage of Dnipro has caught on. Do not mistake our desire for evidence that English language sources have made the change for any political agenda or desire. That is a personal attack and is unacceptable behavior here. Are there more articles like the Reuters article out there? I look every couple of weeks and they are still hard to find (given the fact that Dnipro is rarely mentioned in the English language media). If there are other sources like the Reuters source, then I can be convinced that the time has come for the article name change. But if you post uncritical Google searches, especially ones from Poland or other non-English countries, I will ignore them. Give me solid sources from non-governmental English language venues like the Reuters source above. --Taivo (talk) 16:29, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
No, Google links are from English, not Polish. Do not suggest the domain. Search options related to English (check it Yourself). Despite limiting the search to English, google also displays results in other languages.
Examples of sources from last 30 days:
Older source:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/an-on-the-ground-look-at-the-deadly-surge-of-violence-in-eastern-ukraine/2017/02/03/29d1c37c-ea1a-11e6-903d-9b11ed7d8d2a_story.html?utm_term=.a82b31b2b481

And check the newest sources with the "Dnipropetrovsk" name. Most of them (all?) refer to the football club name or region (oblast) name. Newest city-related articles mostly contain a current, officiall name. Ales sandro (talk) 17:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
I think that sources like Kyiv Post won't be accepted here. It is English language newspaper, but Ukraine based. Chrzwzcz (talk) 18:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
You obviously didn't actually look at your Google links. The first page of them from the first link you provided were all in other European languages, not English. You need to pay closer attention. And Chrzwzcz is right, the sources must be from England or the United States, not just translations or from non-English country sources. Reuters is good, OSCE is not (government). I'll examine the links you've given. As I said, I'm about ready to switch, but will need a sufficient number of appropriate sources like your original Reuters item. --Taivo (talk) 21:20, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
There were only six acceptable links in the above list. Chinese and Ukrainian news agencies are not acceptable since they don't reflect usage in the US and UK. Government sources are not acceptable because they don't reflect common usage, but official government standards. Two of your links (the Privat Bank issue) are the same story printed in two different sources, so they only count as one. Overall I think that the actual six links (plus the Reuters link previously supplied) are sufficient to convince me that it's time to change this article to Dnipro. (But be aware that I am not the only editor to have objected to the change.) --Taivo (talk) 21:29, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Is it enough, just 6 sources from last year to convince that new common name in English is Dnipro? It may be, just asking. If not, maybe some tweaking to first sentence can be done. Now it looks like "common name" in Ukrainian and Russian is also Dni/epropetrovsk, which is not true. And note about gaining English usage of Dnipro may be added too. Chrzwzcz (talk) 22:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
These sources aren't from last year. Of the six, almost all are from June and July of this year. It shows that current English is fairly firmly becoming "Dnipro". And look at the variety of sources and topics: Mythbusters, Popular Mechanics, Business Insider, banking, sports, aerospace. --Taivo (talk) 02:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
And remember what I and the other skeptics have been saying all along: show us evidence that common English usage has changed. Google searches don't cut it. Government documents don't cut it. Pronouncements in Kyiv don't cut it. Carefully selected data from English-speaking countries do. While most of the data provided above is unacceptable to demonstrate common English usage, there is enough there of good quality and wide variety to demonstrate that the change has come. --Taivo (talk) 02:37, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Few sources? With all due respect, it's not Paris or Berlin. The city is not much interested in English-speaking media. Could the opponents of the change be able to provide evidence that currently in use in English dominates the name Dnipropetrovsk? (please provide sources that do not refer to the airport, region/Oblast and football club names)? Could you prove that the current city name in English is different from the official one? Why is the burden of proof being passed on to change advocates? Is there a presumption that the name Dnipropetrovsk is an English name of the city? In my opinion, the starting point is the official name, and if there is any exon in any language, this should be proven. For the moment we have Dnipro in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Reuters, Washington Post, The Herald, New Zealand Herald, The Australian, Newsweek, Fox News, US News, The Independent, CNBC and many others.
Next several sources:
Ales sandro (talk) 10:41, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
It is not about number of sources, but also about percentage, right? You provided 15 sources that do use the new name, but there can easily be 85 prominent sources which still use the old name in current articles and you are not telling us about (?). Is is correct to do the move then? "Airport, region/Oblast and football club names" - you can see where Ukraine made mistake. If they renamed it properly and everywhere, old name would vanish sooner. Chrzwzcz (talk) 10:51, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Could you provide these 85 sources, please? (again, provide sources that do not refer to the airport, region/Oblast and football club names) Airport, region and football club have proper names. These names may theoretically remain unchanged over the years and it does not have any bearing on the name of the city. Ales sandro (talk) 10:22, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
You want the change so you provided only the sources which support the move. Is it fair? Hardly. Tell us honestly if the old name is still used and how much (yeah you can exclude football and airport and oblast...). Is it 15:85 or 15:5?
Someone accused us here that keeping Dnipropetrovsk here on wikipedia are political games or what and Dnipropetrovsk is old awful communist name. Sorry but I make connection - if so, why does it matter when talking about the city, but not about airport and oblast etc.? Is it OK to have football club with 'awful communist name' and act like it is not related? Chrzwzcz (talk) 12:24, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
The only name derived from the law is Dnipro. You say that English exonym is different so you should prove it. If I say that the English exonym of the official name of Barcelona is Chukupuku, I should prove it. Such should be the burden of proof. I provided the sources which support the move and ask you for sources against the move. You say the ratio is 85:15, please show these sources. I have provided arguments for excluding links referring to names of specific places / entities. The name FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk is listed on the club's website, although the name of the city was changed a year ago. The club must make changes to the relevant registry. Omission of the club authorities should not affect the name of the article. By analogy with the name of the airport. The article on the airport should have the current name until the relevant legal changes - so in most other language versions we have articles about the city of Dnipro and Dnipropetrovsk airport. The name of the region is enshrined in the constitution and it is not certain that it will be changed in the near future. What does not matter for the name of the article about the city (or maybe I'm wrong and the article about St. Petersburg should be changed due to the name of the Leningrad Oblast?). Soon English wikipedia will be the only source using the name Dnipropetrovsk in relation to the city. Ales sandro (talk) 13:02, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
"English wikipedia will be the only source using the name Dnipropetrovsk in relation to the city" - it may be, because English sources may be the most conservative (or slow or ignorant, you decide :)) Bottom line - Would you be interested in this?: The first sentence of the article will change to emphasize increasing usage of Dnipro in English sources, but acrticle name stays and first word of the article will be still "Dnipropetrovsk". Let's say for another trial period of 3 months? I think it is a good compromise. Chrzwzcz (talk) 13:08, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
The most conservative does not mean not reflecting reality. There are no compelling arguments in favor of the fact that the English name differs from the current official one (it is subjective opinion of several users not backed up by sources). Why wait another trial period od 3 months? If the name of the football club, the airport and the region does not change, after 3 months there will be new articles referring to these 3 things with the Dnipropetrovsk name. I ask you for sources that confirm your position, it would facilitate the discussion. Here next part of "pro-change" sources (I tried to choose sources only from English-speaking countries, If there are other sources, I apologize in advance):
https://www.lonelyplanet.com/ukraine/dnipropetrovsk
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/former-spurs-keeper-out-to-thwart-kane-and-silence-his-former-club-pffw6pq03
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daily-pnut/why-we-are-undervaluing-u_b_11200282.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-02-06/ukraine-is-fighting-its-own-cold-war
http://www.aol.co.uk/entertainment/2016/09/09/book-your-flights-now-the-eurovision-song-contest-2017-will-be-held-in-kiev-ukraine/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4176994/Model-Ukrainian-wheelchair-star-runway-show.html
http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/once-shunned-this-wheelchair-bound-woman-is-now-a-rising-model-1664352
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2016-11-24/cleaning-ukraine
https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2016/0909/815425-good-evening-kiev-c/
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/story/news/2016/11/21/foreign-exchange-students-grateful-shreveport-bossier-holidays/93962356/
http://if.com.au/2016/12/20/article/Stefan-Bugryn-on-travelling-to-Ukraine-to-shoot-doco-War-Mothers/VPCNEQZLEO.html
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/british-photographer-injured-on-frontline-in-ukraine-backs-fundraising-appeal-for-family-of-woman-killed-helping-him/
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/manitoba-donates-five-ambulances-to-violence-wracked-ukraine-412436183.html
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/fast-cars-space-tickets-luxury-mansions-not-so-secret-lives-ukraines-political-elite-1589162
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/dnipro-metro-extension-contract-signed.html
http://dailysignal.com/2017/02/17/why-russian-military-aggression-has-backfired-on-moscow/
https://eurovision.tv/story/host-city-announcement-for-eurovision-2017-postponed
http://www.escdaily.com/eurovision-2017-kiev-dnipro-odessa-still-race-host/
https://www.thequint.com/news-videos/2017/02/16/alexandra-kutas-from-ukraine-world-first-professional-model-in-a-wheelchair-fashion-week-mercedes-benz-fashion-days
http://www.businessbecause.com/news/emba/4395/this-ie-emba-is-tackling-the-humanitarian-crisis-in-eastern-ukraine
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/232922/in-post-soviet-ukraine-victory-day-is-a-matter-of-interpretation
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=49376
https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2017/05/distillery-fined-over-johnnie-walker-whiskye-rip-off/
http://www.fai.org/news/42837-fai-names-noosphere-ventures-as-its-new-global-technical-partner
http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/once-shunned-this-wheelchair-bound-woman-is-now-a-rising-model-1664352
http://www.calvertjournal.com/news/show/7651/british-photographer-wounded-in-ukraine-conflict
https://www.skymetweather.com/content/global-news/romania-and-ukraine-witness-eight-inches-of-snow/
http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/technology/canso-nove-scotia-chosen-for-canada-s-first-rocket-launch-site/article/487902
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/01/illegal-amber-mining-ukraine/
http://www.kzoo.edu/news/rocketry/
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/02/17/ukraine-dangers-unnecessary-delays-crossing-points
Ales sandro (talk) 17:33, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Best sources would be articles describing the city, not random article about something else which mentions Dnipro somewhere in the middle just "by the way". Prepare the case on a silver platter and it may be ready for vote. You don't expect that it will be agreed here between just 3 people, it requires more people to assemble, it is a pretty huge change (it has to be changes in all different places and articles). I expect it will take some time so in the meantime I offered that compromise in the leading sentence. I will distance myself from the vote - I support it if evidence is clear - but I am not a native speaker (which shows :)) BTW I suspect "Kyiv" won't happen. Chrzwzcz (talk) 17:50, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
User:Chrzwzcz, we have already waited about 6 months to change this article. As you know, I was opposed to changing immediately in order to wait and see what would happen in common English usage and suggested we wait several months. The "compromise" that you offer is what we were already working under--waiting until English media were switching to "Dnipro". Your demand for articles about the city is rather unreasonable since common English usage is not based only on articles about the city, but about usage. That means usage in all contexts, not just articles specifically about the city. We haven't changed "Kiev" to "Kyiv" because we find comments such as, "he spent his youth in Kiev" or "she thought Kiev might be a nice place to live" in articles across a wide range of topics, not just articles about the city itself. On the other hand, User:Ales sandro has provided a broad range of articles on a broad range of topics from a broad range of sources showing that "Dnipropetrovsk/Dnepropetrovsk" is consistently changing to "Dnipro". Your other statement, that "it is a pretty huge change" ignores the fact that the majority of municipalities in Ukraine that had their names changed were moved in Wikipedia almost overnight without serious disruption. That argument is a red herring. I opposed the move in the beginning since Dnipro is one of the larger cities in Ukraine and more likely to be mentioned in English media (unlike Mikolayev, for example). But there is sufficient evidence that English usage is changing. Indeed, "Dnipro" is so much easier to say and write in English than "Dnipropetrovsk" that the change is probably happening faster than it normally would ("Kyiv" is no easier to say and write in English than "Kiev", for example). There is no need for further delay, IMHO. We have waited as I requested and the evidence has appeared--"Dnipropetrovsk" is rapidly changing to "Dnipro" in English usage. --Taivo (talk) 20:12, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Unreasonable? I said "it would be best", not "other usage is unacceptable"! I also said I support the move if watertight nevertheless I don't expect that 2 or 3 people are enough to approve the move. I am not convinced that now Dnipro is used more than Dnipropetrovsk, we were given only supporting evidence. I may do my own research or someone could present fair analysis. Chrzwzcz (talk) 20:27, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
OK, I made quick Google test in English myself - last month sources, it is not easy (you have to read it to know - are referring to football, airport, region or not), of course not all sources switched (weather, tripadvisor...) but newspaper seem to use Dnipro all right. Chrzwzcz (talk) 21:06, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm kind of neutral on the proposed move, but I'm fine if it happens. I'd rather have the issue resolved than it come up on the talk page every few months for years to come. Ethanbas (talk) 21:39, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

OK, this article was renamed and fixed. Another renaming request Category:Dnipropetrovsk was issued (whole category tree) and a lot of Dnepropetrovsk elimination can be done where it is fit - [1] [2] [3]. Chrzwzcz (talk) 16:23, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

  • Oh, Ales sandro already renamed everything, even where it is complete inappropriate. It looks like this is the only reason they edit the English Wikipedia.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:29, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
    • Which my edit is inappropriate? Ales sandro (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
      I left the reference yesterday at your talk page. Additionally, I previously blocked you for similar inapproppriate edits.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:35, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
      • I tried to fix the one with the odd apostrophe - Dnipropetrovs'k. To be historically accurate this formulation should be correct, right? - ... he studied in Dnipropetrovsk (now Dnipro) in Ukraine... Chrzwzcz (talk) 17:22, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
        That one is correct; he studied in Dnipro (referring to say 1957) is incorrect.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:53, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Still some apostrophe Dnipropetrovs'ks present for someone to unify it on one common variant if possible and wanted. Chrzwzcz (talk) 19:09, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 Done, taken care of, except for the file names--Ymblanter (talk) 19:31, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Cool. It was just warm-up for Dnekpropetrovsks and Dnipropetrovsks :) File names - maybe those can be managed too - [4] - I would say here applies "why #3 and #4", but maybe also "why not #1". Chrzwzcz (talk) 20:00, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
File names need to be managed on Commons, where (i) they do not have to follow WP:UKR, and (ii) I am sure there are enough POV-pushers to rename everything. I suggest letting the job to them, especially since the file names are irrelevant anyway.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:06, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

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Soviet Union and Nazi rule section

Tho there is a fair amount of info here (well, in the next section, actually) about the Soviet times, there is nothing about Nazi rule, despite the section title. Does anyone have anything? Boscaswell talk 21:04, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Spelling

I suggest remove spelling of the city in Russian (Днепр and Днепропетровск) as it's unsufficient and excessive information. --Crazyalien (talk) 07:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion. This question was discussed before, and the consensus was so far to keep Russian names in localities where the population is predominantly Russian speaking.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:54, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Note that the topic starter, unsurprisingly, was blocked indefinitely for block evasion--Ymblanter (talk) 17:26, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Content about the Holodomor

I have moved the following[5] to the article on Dnepropetrovsk Oblast, since it is about about oblast not the city:

During the Holodomor more than 200 collective farms in Dnipropetrovsk had been put on "Blackboards" which was a complete blockade of trade and food aid to villages under performing in grain procurement quotas;[1] a number representing more than half of all such "Blackboards" throughout all of Ukraine.[1]
  1. ^ a b Papakin, Georgy. "Holodomor Black Boards - Economic Method of Destruction of USSR Citizens".

Toddy1 (talk) 05:00, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Middle Ages

This section is mainly unsourced and possibly incorrect. The section states: "By the mid-15th century, the Nogai (who lived north of the Sea of Azov) and the Crimean Khanate invaded these lands." Please correct me if I am wrong but I understood that the Nogai arrived in the Crimean Khanate in two waves, the first in the mid-16th century under mirza Kazy and the second in the mid-17th century after the Kalmyk invasion of the Nogai's traditional lands around the lower Volga. Kairos1919 (talk) 21:33, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[1]

References

  1. ^ http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CN%5CO%5CNogayTatars.htm

Undefined ref

@Yulia Romero: you need to fill in the actual source for this ref you've named "673225DniproMetro". -- Fyrael (talk) 18:52, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

 Done +  Thanks I was waiting for AnomieBOT to do it for me.... It did do so in the Wikipedia article Tsentralno–Zavodska line..... @Fyrael: do you happen to know if AnomieBOT is less effective in larger Wikipedia articles like this one????? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:15, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Nope, I'm afraid I have no idea at all how that bot works. You seem to be much more familiar with it than I am. Next time I see a ref with a name like that though, I'll just wait and see if it gets acted on. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I have successfully used AnomieBOT before... But it did not always work on larger Wikipedia articles.... Anyhow, better not too rely to much on technology — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

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