Talk:Doner kebab/Archive 1

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Archive 1

donairs in nova scotia

No mention of the fanatic devotion to donairs in Nova Scotia? My wife (bluenoser like I) would inflict severe trauma to an unsuspecting victim to get her hands on a donair. Also, the donairs that I grew up with look different. Will try to find a digital pic that I took last year.

Jerry Deveau -Sleepingbear (13:31, November 24, 2004)

I'm from Nova Scotia, I would add something about it, but I don't know what to say. All I know is that I can get a donair just about everywhere around here, but once you start going west it becomes harder and harder to get one, all the way to just about impossible. I don't know the history or what makes them special in Nova Scotia. -- elykyllek 05:02, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

I'm skeptical about the "donair" sauce being made with vinager. The vinager would cause the sauce to curdle into an unapetizing mess. I'm guessing the sauce is made using yogurt/Kefir to give it an acidic tang. Klonimus 06:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

No, it's true. (It might constitute part of a new solution to the Incompatible Food Triad puzzle.) You can find recipes online. You use condensed milk, though, not just milk. Possibly that, or the high amount of sugar, prevents the milk from ccurdling--maybe milk needs a higher water content to curdle. Anyhow, I've made it successfully from condensed milk, sugar, vinegar, and garlic powder, and it does work, for whatever reason. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.142.22.9 (talk • contribs) 03:14, September 17, 2005 (UTC)

Unify döner kebab, gyro, and shwarma articles?

Gyro, döner kebab, and shwarma are really the same food under different names, with regional/national variants. Shouldn't these three pages be unified?--Macrakis 04:03, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Shwarma and döner kebab are basicly the same. Gyro's sandwhiches are sometimes made using meat prepared in the Shwarma style, but at least in the US, often made from strips of spiced and salted ground lamb that are cooked on a grill top.

In the U.S. Most shops call this product shawarma unless the owners are specifically turkish in which case they will call it döner kebab, or shwarma because that's what everyone else calls it. In israel this product is called shawarma. Klonimus 06:33, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I feel like they taste different to me. Comparing what I've eaten in Germany and in the U.S., I must say I have not been able to find anything that comes close to the awesomeness of the doener kebab. Kwikstah

I comnpletely agree. Shawarma that I've had are nothing like the doeners that I grew to love in Germany. --Morbid-o 18:28, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

After reading the Doner kebab, Kebab, Gyros, and Shawarma articles & ‘talks’, I have come to the following conclusions. It is significant that despite its diverse heritage, the fast food concept of meat grilled on a vertical spit and served in bread with generally Mediterranean garnish/sauces is taking over the world regardless of whether you call it a Doner, Kepap, Durum, Shwarma, or Gyros! As such, I think this concept deserves a unified page that then describes the various varieties both in preparation and name. And, yes, I know this may make many Greeks, Turks, and Arabs angry who believe their version of this concept is the first, best, or even the only true way to make it.

I smell a thesis or dissertation in there! I can just see the color-coded maps indicating where it’s called what and the most popular preparations. Just think of the historical, cultural, culinary, and even business aspects that could be studied. And, of course, it would have to involve travel around the world! Hmm, where could I get a grant to study this? --Froese 16:43 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I do not think the heritage is "diverse". Indeed, the heritage is common -- they all come from the Turkish döner kebab (and I am Greek!). Indeed, an older name for gyros in Greece is "doner" (ντονερ). I hadn't heard the name "durum" before -- where is that used, and what does it refer to? --Macrakis 17:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I have seen the term "Durum" being used in numerous Turkish restaurants here in Germany (Cologne, to be exact). The dish, however, was called "Döner Dürum" - i.e., the two terms must be used in combination. --Vargher 12:45 (GMT), 30 Dec 2005

Dürüm means something like "rolled", so I would guess that Döner Dürüm is a rolled-up sandwich of Döner Kebab meat. Does that correspond to what you see in Köln? --Macrakis 15:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, that's a good question: to be honest, I have not yet ordered a "döner dürüm" as such yet: I have simply seen the term multiple times in a number of restaurants. I myself have only eaten the "normal" döner kebab so far, which is sold in the ordinary sandwich form. Perhaps anyone else has actually seen a real Döner Dürüm? I can't be the only one living in Cologne who posts on this page, after all. --Vargher 23:48 (GMT), 1 Dec 2005

I´m from a town in central Germany where all mentioned varieties are served. From my huge - döner-expericence

I'm sorry but the above is flat out nonsense. While I cannot speak for the taste of Shwarma, Donner kebabs and gyros are no more the same thing than a ham sandwhich and a bacon sandwhich are the same thing. Purely for reasons of accuracy, you cannot claim that the three are "the same thing" even if they do share a basic concept (meat cooked on a vertical, rotating spit and served in pita), they are not. --Madashell 29 December 2005

They are not the same thing, they are closely related things. A ham sandwich and a bacon sandwich are not the same thing, either, I agree, but they are both sandwiches. Those things that are common to them belong on the "sandwich" page, not on separate ham and bacon sandwich pages. Doner/gyros/shwarma are not only very similar in result, they share a common origin. And the funny thing is, though people consider them to be different, the definitions of what exactly they are vary considerably from region to region. It would be interesting to know where you have observed these dishes, and what the differences are in your area. --Macrakis 17:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to chime in that I was quite frankly offended when I browsed this article and saw that there was a motion to combine the three. I do not know about Shwarma, but I live in Germany and have a Döner stand and a Gyro stand nearby, and what comes out of them is miles different. Gyros use a differently seasoned chunk of meat (and never chicken meat, as döners often do), and usually only come with tzatziki sauce that is more acidic and less sweet and garlicy than the garlic sauce that comes on döners, as well as in pita instead of the turkish flatbread that döners come in. Also thinking about it (I have never really picked out the differences between the two), döners like you say have pickled red and white cabbage in them which Gyros do not. Most of the döners around here also have a orangish herb sauce option and a red sharp sauce option, while Gyros have only tzatziki. Also, to answer an earlier question, yes, a Döner Dürüm is a Kebap rolled in thin white bread, usually with a bit more filling than a Kebap would have.--80.144.190.225 16:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Please read the discussion on Talk:Shawarma. It is true that in a given place, shawarma and gyros may be different in some systematic way. However, in some other place, they may be different in a completely different way -- or may be exactly the same thing. Wikipedia needs to discuss all this in a universal way. Here in Boston (Massachusetts), for example, I have never seen pickled cabbage in any of these sandwiches. --Macrakis 17:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

removal of picture of Donor kebab meat being cut from spit

if you look in the recent history (see date below) you will notice that a picture was removed with no reason given, seeing that it is logical to show the meat being cooked (the meat being the a key component of the Donor kebab) in an article about Donor kebabs the picture ought to be restored.

If no one can give a convincing reason why the picture should be out then I think it would be better to have it in, especially as the picture would be an aid to recognition for those who have trouble putting a face to the name/name to the face and especially for those who have not seen the vertical rotating spit of the Donor kebab. If possible, the picture should be made into a split picture showing both meat and chicken spits.

--I 15:05, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

who is passionate about Kebabs and has tried them in different shops all over Sydney

-- I've never seen doner kebabs sold in partitioned trays and I'm in the UK. Is this a regional thing? Secret london 19:53, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it is. I saw "donner meat and chips" and "tray of donner meat" from time to time when at University in the Midlands, despite never having encountered them at home in the South. Personally, I consider them both (especially the latter) to be something of an abomination. PeteVerdon 15:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Two Dots over the letter 'o'

I don't think the squiggle over the "o" in Doner ought to be there. Any opinions? --Khendon 20:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

If there's a squiggle over the "o", there is some problem with your browser/font/OS. It should be two dots. --Macrakis 21:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I was being a bit whimsical. I meant the two dots, yes. I don't think they belong on the English word "Doner". --Khendon 07:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The 2 dots come from the turkish to turn "döner" = "it turns". since it is a foreign word in english, it makes sense to write it both ways, just as "naive" can be written with 2 dots over the 'i'.--Brallan 23:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually it comes from ther German language. The "Ö" represents an OE placement in a word. These "oomlaughts" (incorrect spelling I do believe) replace the "ae", "ue" and "oe" in certain words. For our example, Döner is really Doener. Both are pronounced the same (a sound that I cannot find a word to mimic it with, the oe I mean, the German Ö in Döner.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.209.93.223 (talk • contribs) 15:33, January 5, 2006 (UTC)

No, it comes from Turkish, which shares the letter ö with German. The fact that this made the word easy to pronounce in German may have helped it become accepted there, but the word döner has no intrinsic German meaning. ProhibitOnions 19:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

well, the correct spelling is Umlauts...

it is pronounced similar to the 'u' in 'urgent'. --141.84.69.20 15:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Oltu?

What is the "special L shaped Oltu shish along the surface" mentioned in the article. A google search didn't give me any clue. It needs some sort of explanation for that information to be worth including. Ilkka Kaukoranta —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.231.89.44 (talk • contribs) 12:01, January 12, 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merge

I have made some comments on this issue at Talk:Shawarma. Perhaps we can discuss the ins and outs of it there. Palmiro | Talk 10:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Döner kebab isn't the same as shawarma or gyros, so I don't see why this should be merged. Rhobite 00:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The logic given by those who want to merge these articles could equally be used to split the method of meat preparation from the sandwiches. I ate döner kebap in Merzifon, Turkey (far from the usual tourist areas) as a sandwich with yogurt sauce in the late seventies. I also ate it as a part of a dinner, on a plate with rice and saled. The confusion caused by having a fourteen year old doing the translating left me with the mistaken impression that "döner" meant lamb and "şiş" meant sheep, but the taste was unmistakeable, and the reference clearly was to the meat, and used in the same way you might use "roast beef" or "grilled chicken". The sandwich variations in that instance would go into the article on sandwiches.

However, I'd rather see the articles kept separate, with links back and forth, to encourage more information about variations around the world.

(And the picture should definitely show the meat being cooked.) —the preceding unsigned comment is by 129.44.174.69 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be okay having an article döner which refers to the cooking method and a separate page for the sandwiches; however, the mergist argument against separate pages is that no one of the pages could be good enough to be featured, but a single article could — quite easily, in my opinion. --Mgreenbe 15:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

DO NOT ADD TO GYROS

Let me explain something: while the two foods SEEM similar, as a whole they are not. Being from Chicago, where Gyros is served everywhere, i am familiar with a particular style of this food. Often traveling to Berlin, I am familiar with Doner Kebap, these two styles and tastes couldnt be more different! They ARE different foods! however there should be a link between both of them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Victorgrigas (talk • contribs) 20:22, January 19, 2006 (UTC)

Please take a look at the discussion in Talk:Shawarma. The basic argument is that not only are they all basically the same food, and of the same origin, but also that there is no systematic relationship between the names and the foods. --Macrakis 20:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Having the privilege (and the extra calories) of trying the food in Turkey, Germany, Belgium and Greece I have to admit:

Fact: There are significant variations in taste between the dishes. Döner is different than gyros.
Fact: the name döner refers to a whole genre of dishes, unlike gyros, which is more specific. I assume that the core etymological meaning of döner and gyros is derived a verb meaning to revolve. I am sure about the gyros, see gyroscope but can't prove this for döner.
Fact: In every case I tried gyros, the meat was not as thinly sliced as in döner. And this is a fundamental difference.
Fact: All these dishes are principally prepared around a vertical spin, but most similarities stop there. There is different meat, different sauces, different vegetables, different spices and flavours
Fact: The ways of serving differ considerably, e.g. with or without pitta.
Fact: As in every dish, the result in taste depends on various factors, ranging from the restaurant to the meat and the consumer's taste.

Therefore, I am against merging the terms. But the similarities and differences should be discussed. Donnerstag 00:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Donnerstag, I certainly agree that there are different varieties of meat-roasted-on-a-vertical-spit. The problem is that, as far as I can tell, there is no systematic correspondence between the names and the varieties. When a Greek makes it, it is called "gyros", when a Turk makes it, it is called "döner", when an Arab or an Israeli makes it, it is called "shwarma". I have also had döner/gyros/shwarma in many countries (Greece, Turkey, US, UK, France, Germany) and that is my observation.

As for the names, Greek "gyros" (turning) is simply a loan-translation of Turkish "döner" (from the verb dönmek, to turn). In fact, the dish used to be called ντονέρ (doner) in Greek. Shwarma is from a different Turkish verb, çevirmek, which is also related to turning.

The thickness of slicing varies, the meat varies, the sauce varies, etc. No question about it.

See fuller discussion at Talk:Shawarma. --Macrakis 02:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

To explain, why merging does not make sense.. 1. the meat: gyros = pig / döner = lamb or hash of lamb+beef or chicken 2. spice: gyros = salt, pepper, garliac, oregano, thyme (+ caraway, marjoram, coriander by time) .. in original tzatziki added / döner = salt, spice, eggs, orion, oil, milk, yoghurt 3. sauces: whole different 4. gyros can be side dish .. döner is always main dish with pide or something bread like 5. whoever started the discussion about merging should start another one merging black+white —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.135.155.118 (talk • contribs) 13:06, January 30, 2006 (UTC)

I´m from a town in central Germany where all mentioned varieties are served. From my huge döner-expericence I can tell the following: Ceratinly döner, shwarma and gyros are close in concept, but nevertheless there are huge differences for the connaisseur. The meat of greek "gyros" is usually spiced, which is not true for döner and shwarma, and usually comes only with thick "tsatsiki" garilc-yoghurt-sauce. Döner and shwarma usually differ by vegetables and sauce. Döner comes with rather "domestic" vegetables as red or white cabbage, tomatoes, cucumbers, onions, sometimes carrots and typically thin garilc-yoghurt-sauce. Shwarma seems to be somewhat more oriental, containing also melon stripes and mince and being topped with spicy sesame-sauce. The "dürüm" mentioned below exchanges the pita with a wrap of tortilla-like arabic-bread. Gero 5 Feb 2006 (unsigned contribution by User:84.58.196.174)

Melon? Mince? Sesame sauce? Shawarma is nothing like that here in Israel. (Though melon does sound interesting. And some prosciutto...mmm.) It should also be noted that shawarma here is always spiced; gyros in Providence, Rhode Island is never spiced. I appreciate your connaisseurité, but I hope you understand that it is provincial; I mean this without insult — you are clearly quite experienced, and I solicit your advice on German street food. How are these foods different in a general way? --Mgreenbe 22:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Gero, I understand that in your town in central Germany there may be systematic differences between döner, shawarma and gyros. The problem is that those systematic differences are not the same elsewhere. For example, if I remember correctly, döner in Turkey never contains cabbage, although I understand that that is typical in Germany. Shawarma in Boston never contains melon (!!). One finds similar differences in any dish. For example, roast chicken may be made with no herbs, with rosemary, or with thyme. It may be stuffed or not. It may be basted with butter or not. It may be trussed or not. But these are all variants of roast chicken! --Macrakis 22:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what gyros really is, but as a kebab enthusiast and a true professional at destroying bulk kebab meals: kebab simply means "grilled meat". Any meat. And döner, again, is a way to process the grilled meat, by rotating it and then slicing with a knife or a special cutter machine. Shawarma is basically identical to kebab. I'd insert shawarma into this article with its section which would state that it's identical, or simply ignore the similiarity and keep them linked only with a section called "Identical dishes" or "Similiar dishes". As far as I can say, kebab is exclusively referred to as the lamb/beef döners in Europe, so when someone says "I want a kebab", they mean that they want a döner kebab with salads and sauces rolled in pita. "I want gyros" would be chicken or whatever it usually is and not (usually) being rolled in pita (?). At least in Finland people mention seperately if they talk about kebab with French fries etc. (as opposed to the standard beef pita kebab), gyros, shawarma (actually, never referred to as "shawarma", but simply kanakebab (chicken kebab) etc. Still, the dishes have gone their own ways like languages, which have similiarities, but are different and should be recognized as different concepts. --84.249.252.211 19:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Update to the Donair Section in regards to Halifax Nova Scotia and it's History

This article was recently featured in the Chronicle Herald (one of Halifax's two daily newspapers) It discusses the history of the Donair in Halifax and it's founding father's retirement. If someone wants to read the article and add the information to the wikipedia I think that would be great. http://www.halifaxherald.com/Front/490335.html alexisatk 09:16, March 16, 2006 (AST)

Confirmation of Locality

It was mentioned above that in the maritime provinces, particularly NS, donairs are very common. Any canadian points west of this have probably never heard of a donair. Upon a description given, a western Canadian may suggest that they have a similar thing called a gyro, but it is quite different from a NS donair. [unknown user] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.177.78.23 (talk • contribs) 18:03, April 11, 2006 (UTC)

German section straying from the topic

An article on food is not the place to describe immigration. Joncnunn 18:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Unless of course the situation of the immigrants led to the popularization and development of the food, which is certainly the case with Döner. I see no problem with that section of the article as it is. --84.153.59.131 08:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

donair, kebab, gyro, shawarma is all the same - merge

It doesn't matter that the variations taste differently..that is to be expected with the myriad spices and sauces available around the world. They are all spiced meat grilled on a vertical spit served on bread with condiments and vegetables. An analogy is soup. There are infinite types of soup that can be served around the world that all taste and look different, but they are all just soup. People - swallow your silly national pride and accept a merger of the articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.81.16.207 (talk • contribs) 00:08, May 25, 2006 (UTC)

What do you propose we merge them as? Soup has a common name for all its variations. These things do not. Plus, though say, leek soup and potato soup are the same thing, do they not deserve seperate articles?BovineBeast 16:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

So what are the variants, and how do they differ from each other? Palmiro | Talk 23:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Rotting Meat

Can anyone actually cite this translation of Doner Kebab? According to my translation I get the following:

rotten - bozuk

rotten - kokmu?

rotten - kaba

rotten - berbat

rotten - boktan

rotten - rezil

meat - et

meat - li konu

meat - yarak

--Yyem 13:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

"rotten meat" in turkish is "çürümüş et"

Hey, the meat is not rotten, its rotating. Rotate in Turkish is dönmek, and in simple present tense it becomes döner. Bertilvidet 13:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

donair merge

These articles shouldnt have been merged, as they have nothing in common. Donairs should have their own article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.167.215.233 (talk • contribs) 03:30, October 27, 2006 (UTC)

I am from Halifax, Nova Scotia. a DONAIR is a LEBANESE creation, here in Halifax.A family from lebanon invented it from a similar food. It is NOT the same as a doner kebab! I for one, know that an average person not from Canada, might not know about a Donair, but if you came to Halifax, and asked for a doner kebab, you would recieve a Donair. These articles should NOT have been merged! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sololop (talk • contribs) 01:54, November 18, 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetical?

Great care is taken in alphabetizing the country listings under the various continents, but not the continents themselves - of course, Americas would then be ahead of Asia, Europe, etc. which may be the reason that this isn't being done...just another Wiki inconsistency (and no, in alphabetizing you don't consider the "the" which really isn't needed in any case) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.168.113 (talk) 01:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Seriously? A little American envy, huh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.36.219 (talk) 03:28, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Doner Kebab is non-European?

Doner Kebab??? I don't understand why Gyros are redirected here. Just another example of why wiki sucks. All the West-hating liberals can hijack a page to make them selves feel better thinking they can rewrite history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.188.155 (talk) 02:48, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

the article states that: "Also of note is the fact that employees of döner kebab stands (along with those of Indian restaurants) are among the most visible non-Asian, non-European immigrants in Japan."

In the context of the current will-Turkey-join-the-debate this is intresting; Turkey is either in Europe, Asia or both. For sure it's not both non-European and non-Asian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.194.87.163 (talk) 17:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

Couldn't it be considered middle eastern instead ? The borders between Europe, Asia, Africa and the less defined areas where they meet vary depending on who you are talking to, and in which context. --86.144.20.95 (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Döner is a German invention. It was a young Turk in Berlin who invented the Döner Kebab. Normaly you ust say Döner (Doener)

There does seem to be some support for the döner kebab being a German invention (e.g. http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Doner_kebab_creator_dies&in_article_id=489170&in_page_id=34). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.66.103 (talk) 11:53, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

yes and also [1] but the person who invented it was a turk as it says here. I'm dissatisfied with the absence of its origins in this article, I hope someone can clear things up with the link I supplied and the one the gentlemen before me did. --Huss4in (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

إقرا --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 15:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Ridiculous. Gyros are much more known in Europe, North American and much of the Middle East compared to Doner Kabab. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.36.219 (talk) 03:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Döner Kebab (the original) is of course not German, but it seems like the Döner sandwich-style variation where meat and salad is stuffed into a flat bread (and that is what Germans know as Döner) was invented in Germany in the 1960s or 1970s by Turkish immigrants in Germany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.210.114.106 (talk) 13:34, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Merge with "shawarma"?

Could this article be merged with the one entitled "shawarma"? I think these are basically two different terms for the same thing.

Maybe the other way round. The name doner kebap is much more well known that shawarma.

No. Merging is what is getting so many people confused about donairs. I am sick of telling people about halifax donairs and they say "oh, they are just the same as a gyro" which they arent. I dont need them confusing them with shwarmas when i am trying to explain what they are. Gyros and shwarmas look and taste completley different from a donair. Donairs deserve their own article. --Dallin Tanjo22 22:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Shawermas, gyros and doner kebabs are most definitely not the same. I grew up eating shawermas in the Middle East (Gulf), have had plenty of gyros after having moved to the U.S., and doner kebabs a few times here too. Besides the fact that these three types of food really originate from, and are most prevalent in, distinct geographical areas (the Middle East/Arabian Gulf/Egypt, Greece and Turkey resp.), they also taste different. In the case of shawermas, tahina (sauce) is always added, and in the case of gyros, tzatziki (sauce)! Both of these sauces result in different tastes. I don't know if doner kebabs have any sauce on them. Plus, the bread that is used for shawermas (khubs) is completely different from that used for gyros.

In addition, it is exactly articles like these, on topics that might have some overlap yet have significant distinct aspects, that should have a place in encyclopedias, as specific details of each topic are disseminated, and of course discussed. We should leave these articles as they are. Idunno271828 05:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Merging the articles for Doner kebab and Shawarma would make as much sense as merging the articles for Tzatziki and Raita... or Chop suey and Ragout... or Dog and Wolf. In other words, it would make no sense at all! Two similar things, even two literally related things, are not the same thing. Having a 'see also' in each article linking to the other is a much better idea than simply mashing the two articles together. -the Jack (not logged in) 69.183.237.60 23:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't merge. These two items are (perhaps) related but most definitely quite different. It is surprising that anyone suggested they could be considered the same. If these two were combined, a whole host of other Greek, Turkish, Israeli and Middle-Eastern dishes would logically also have to feature on the same page. David-Freya (talk) 22:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I grew up in Saudi and Ankara and I agree they aren't the same. However, the fact that both articles use the exact same picture probably doesn't help emphasize that fact. slatkin —Preceding comment was added at 00:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

How could a Gyros be the same as a Döner, if a Gyros can contain pork, a meat that is forbidden for muslims? Sure, they are definately of the same origin, but they are not the same! 217.93.217.127 (talk) 03:41, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Rating for WPTR

Rated as start class becuase the article lacks inline citations, even though it is quite long in length A question to everyone who believes the articles in question should be merged...have you eaten an authentic lebanese shawarma,turkish doner kabab & greek gyro?? if you have you'll have the common sense & the taste buds to realize that they are NOT the same...the only thing vaguely similar about them is the way they're processed...the ingredients they use to marinate the meat is different,the pita/khubz(bread) they're wrapped/pocketed in is different,the spread they use on the bread is different & the accompaniements are different...so please give them their own articles like they rightly deserve...in case you're wondering,this from someone who's grown up eating lebanese shawarmas in the mid-east,turkish doner kebaps in the U.K & having tried greek gyros on the streets of n.y.c. 82.148.96.68 19:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)82.148.96.68 19:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:D%C3%B6ner_kebab"

Denizz

Why are you removing information? Artaxiad 22:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

First, why do we need an Armenian name here, which probably means again something related to rotating. We get 5 google hits, 4 related to dance, one something from some Armenian forum. Google hits are not everything but getting just one hit is something, no need to even talk about that that hit comes from a forum/blog (?) of "a group of diasporan Armenians recording their experiences of life in Armenia", it appears in a message posted by Ara at. I wonder who Raffi K. is.

We have three articles on bout the same thing. Do you positively know that this khorovad is döner but not gyros or shawarma, or not something different from them? The part in the history section refers to the next sentence (your addition needs to be grammatically fixed as well). Does this Denham guy refer to it as khorovad? Please give references, and do not revert anymore. deniz^T_C 03:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I reverted, that version sounds like this: "Doner kebap (donsdhfl etc) .. is the name given to an Armenian dish made of ..." - that doesn't sound right. This is the article about Doner kebab, not something else, people are free to start something else, like gyros or shwarma.. Baristarim 20:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

A quick Web check shows that khorovadz isn't döner at all; it is any roast meat on skewers, more like shish kebab. So you are right to remove it. On the other hand, I still think that döner kebab, shawarma, and gyros should be unified in one article: even the name shawarma (cevirme) is Turkish, and gyros is just a fairly recent calque of döner. But alas the Turkish chauvinists, the Arab chauvinists, the Greek chauvinists, et al. all agree they should be separate articles. Sigh. --Macrakis 20:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the T, A, G chauvinists are not that much to blame there. In many towns in US, there are both shawarma and gyros restaurants, and the shawarma and gyros offered there are different, since they are done by different people, and these 'cook's are usually Greek, Turkish or Arab, and they prepare shawarma/gyros in a way similar to the other 'cook's from their country of origin. So, gyros' sandwiches are similar to other gyros sandwiches, likewise shawarmas are similar to other shawarmas. Gyros and shawarma differ from each other in US, and this is English wikipedia, 'invaded' by Americans. Doner is not so much known in US, I think. deniz^T_C 15:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, usually Greeks call the product "gyros", Arabs and Israelis call it "shawarma", and Turks call it "doner", and yes, there is quite a bit of variety in the preparation of the meat, the condiments used, and the type of bread. The basic similarity remains, and indeed the variants seem to have as much to do with local tastes as with the name; then there is free variation. So Muhammad's shawarma in Detroit may be more like Dimitri's gyros in Detroit and Orhan's doner in Lyon than it is like Fariq's shawarma in Cairo. --Macrakis 16:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Awful introducton

It is a bit strange to start with a comparison of doner with shawarma, gyros etc. Especially where there are pages dedicated to both. This awkward situation seems to be resulting from "Diasporic" edits.

"Döner Kebab around the world section" is another story. As soon as possible, I will introduce information about "tartiflette" around the world. "Tartiflette in Japan", "Tartiflette in Russia".. Or "sushi in Turkey", "sushi in England", "sushi in Luxembourg".

And what is this??? "Today, döner kebab is typically served as a kind of sandwich in pita (flat bread)(in Europe?! In its home country, it is served in bread (with tomato, onion, pepper) or with RICE). The döner kebab with salad and sauce served in pita, which is predominant in Germany and the rest of the world (following Turkey, I suppose), was invented in Berlin-Kreuzberg in 1971 (those who wrote this phrase here should have invented it!!!), because the original preparation was not appealing enough to the German taste (Germany went to a referandum and voted on the topic.."original preparation" (who knows what has been meant here) is not appealing to us! Oki doki). The döner has been the most popular fast food dish in Germany since the 1980s." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Z y (talk • contribs) 22:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

A few minutes ago, I learnt that shish taouk is a Syrian/Lebanese Kebap..I should go and sleep..We are in Wikipedia. Everything is possible here :) --Z y 22:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody add the following sourced information to this section: http://istanbulian.blogspot.com/2009/01/dner-kebab-had-invented-by-iskender.html --85.101.138.39 (talk) 13:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Kebap is not doner

In the intro, it says "Döner Kebab (as döner kebap in Turkish and often simply kebap, döner, doner or donner)". However, 'kebap' in Turkish is not the same as Doner. It refers to a wide range of dishes, including Doner.

Yes, but people incorrectly refer to this as kebab as well. Why, just the other day, I ordered the completely wrong thing at an unfamiliar shop just yesterday. 66.109.195.106 19:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

You mean we should prefer the mistake, right? Regrettably sometimes ignorance weighs more than anything else in naming the people, objects, food etc around us as well as many abstract concepts. Sorry to have noticed your talk more than five years after it was written. --E4024 (talk) 00:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

A question to everyone who believes the articles in question should be merged...have you eaten an authentic lebanese shawarma,turkish doner kabab & greek gyro?? if you have you'll have the common sense & the taste buds to realize that they are NOT the same...the only thing vaguely similar about them is the way they're processed...the ingredients they use to marinate the meat is different,the pita/khubz(bread) they're wrapped/pocketed in is different,the spread they use on the bread is different & the accompaniements are different...so please give them their own articles like they rightly deserve...in case you're wondering,this from someone who's grown up eating lebanese shawarmas in the mid-east,turkish doner kebaps in the U.K & having tried greek gyros on the streets of n.y.c. 82.148.96.68 19:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Have you eaten a ham sandwich, a cheese sandwich and Norwegian Egg Sandwich? Do you have the buds and all to realize how different they are? So why don't you go to thesandwich article and separate it into as many different articles as necessary? --85.99.77.96 (talk) 17:02, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Halifax donair

A Donair and a doner-kebab are two ENTIRELY different things. I simply can't understand why "Donair" or "Halifax Donair" redirects me to this article. At the moment, I have absolutely no interest in doner-kebabs or gyros... I am specifically looking for information pertaining to Donairs. PLEASE, give the Halifax Donair it's own article, and just leave it be.
142.68.48.17 09:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. While similar, a donair is definitely not a 'döner kebab', and it is lost in the pointless largeness of this article. Anyone in Canada or the US trying to find out what a donair is would be very confused after reading this article (despite this article's claims, donair is hard to find outside of Nova Scotia. Very few people outside of this province have ever heard of it). It's like clumping 'pizza' into the 'pie' article. Please create a Halifax Donair article. --Marshmello 00:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marshmello (talk • contribs)

FWIW, you can get donairs pretty easily in Newfoundland.--Stacecom (talk) 23:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Merger and a new article?

Should we create a new article about Doner in different countries? That section is quite unstable, it occupies a big space, and it is not particularly necessary here (a summary with {{main}} to the actual article should be enough). Also is there anyone here who is against the merger? I am in favor of merging, but I don't mind so much keeping them separate. Deniz^T_C 20:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Any thoughts? Deniz^T_C 23:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone against this? Deniz^T_C 21:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

New article: done. Anyone wishing to provide sources for those 'facts', please do so on Döner kebab around the world. We can change the name as well. Deniz^T_C 04:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The merger mentioned above was about merging döner kebab, gyros and shawarma. Deniz^T_C 16:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Is it stable enough now to be folded back into döner kebab, because logically I can see no reason for it to be separate. Are there any other "[dish] in the world" articles? --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 14:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It should definitively be folded back into this article, to avoid misunderstandings, mixing up different kinds of döner kebabs and other culinary and cultural conflicts.

Warrington (talk) 16:12, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Citation needed?

"The meat used for making döner kebabs may be lamb, beef, veal or chicken, but never pork[citation needed]" Why is a citation needed? If it's about the pork then it's simply because Muslims (e.g. Turks) may not eat pork.217.232.248.78 (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Turks may eat pork, but muslims not. And because nearly every turk is a muslim..

In Turkey and Germany there are even food laws wich define what can be called döner. In both lands it states that you can never use any Pork in it. But.... there are several cases of Döner stands in Germany using pork and beef mixed... and those where run by turks. But well.. you will find as***les everywhere, right? --78.51.65.38 (talk) 02:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't say I'm a big fan of pork döner. Jared Preston (talk) 22:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Doner kebab around the world

The danish reference to "en rulle" is used in jutlandish dialect only. That part should be considered deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.0.132.161 (talk) 16:08, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Doner kebab is one of those dishes that is available EVERYWHERE and varies from region to region due to regional tastes. A previous version of the article reflected this, whereas this current article focuses on the German variant, with little more than a footnote to the original Turkish version.

Doner is a very popular dish in the UK, and in my experience tastes notably different from the also-delicious German doner kebab. The chilli sauce served with a British doner is different, as well.

I can second that comment. Not only is the meat different (with more texture and a different taste) but so is the surrounding bread. Exile (talk)

This article does seem to focus a lot on the doner kebab in Germany, and there are other bits that sound like they're written purely from the perspective of a particular country, which lends a rather piecemeal air to the whole article. The other article on Döner kebab in the world covers the regional variations much better, whereas this article should probably be a more general summary, with some reference to international variations, but focusing more on the commonalities. I don't know the relative popularity of the doner kebab in different countries, but I do know that it is incredibly popular in the UK (usually as a late night snack after drinking); currently it reads as though Germany is the main place where doners are eaten. It could do with attention from someone who knows more about the full international picture. Missdipsy (talk) 10:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Also... the diaresis (umlaut)... whilst this is required for the correct pronunciation in German, in the English language wikipedia it should only be used when discussing the German variant, and should not be in the article title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.182.109 (talk) 22:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not very sure about this, but I think that the umlaut is there because that's how the word is spelled in Turkish, not in German. Turkish has umlaut just like German does. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 16:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Correct, it is the Turkish spelling, and I am very sure about this. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 22:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that the article as it is does not seem to give any guidelines on pronunciation - is it pronounced like "donor" or like "Donna"? Those are the only two pronunciations I ever hear in the UK, and I didn't know it was spelt with the umlaut at all. Certainly I never see it written like that in the anglicised form of the word, and since this is the English wikipedia, I think that the umlaut should not be in the article title. The article should discuss where the word comes from, but that's enough in my opinion. Compare with Depeche Mode, named after the French phrase "dépêche mode", but with the accents dropped... of course, a music group can be called anything, so it's not necessarily comparable. leevclarke (talk) 02:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

In germany, curry sauce is extremely popular and I added that in but it got removed. This is from a lot of firsthand experience at my different Doner places. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregweitzner (talk • contribs) 14:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Someone should consider putting the BELGIAN doner in the list of Doner around the world. In Belgium Doner is served in three kinds of way (Pita, Durum and that Triangle bread - I don't know how it's called, It's actually big round bread split in four pieces and toasted). In Belgium a Durum is always served with chips (fries for Americans) inside, something that the Dutch people have adopted. In Belgium there's often a choice of more than 10 sauces (finding 30 sauces in a doner outlet isn't uncommon). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.49.249.81 (talk) 23:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Someone forgot about the Czech Republic. Here in Plzen I have seen at least 4 kebab shops (I have been to two of them). I wonder how the kebabs here differ from the Turkish. (147.228.209.157 (talk) 14:21, 25 July 2013 (UTC))

Origin

Is this really the origin for Gyros? Docku: What up? 04:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Yorgos Babiniotis, the ultimate authority on Greek Etymology says it actually is.

--88.254.132.139 (talk) 14:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Unreferenced statement

The döner kebab with salad and sauce served in pita, which is predominant in Germany, was invented in Berlin-Kreuzberg in 1971, because the original preparation was not appealing enough to German tastes. The döner has been among the most popular fast food dishes in Germany since the 1980s.^{[citation needed]}

Since this contradicted a referenced piece of information, it's been removed. - Mgm|^(talk) 13:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
According to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7841890.stm) the döner kebab was invented in Berlin in 1971. Numerous other news outlets support this opinion.

You are mistaken, NOT the kebab itself is claiming to be invented but the version "in a "pitta" bread" (and NOT on a plate). Döner is mentioned in Ottoman Cookbooks written, way before Germany was a country. I also have predicaments about the latter, as User:Macrakis pointed it out previously, he remembers eating Döner on a bread way before 70's as do my grandparents. --88.254.132.139 (talk) 14:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Bad Image

The Main Picture of the article is plain ugly, and shows a gas cooked döner, which many could find artificial. I have here examples of real Turkish Döner, from Bursa, cooked on either wood, charcoal, or cast iron, all from master craftsmen, among which we should choose one as a replacement for the article.

--88.254.132.139 (talk) 14:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and while waiting for a consensus, I am putting Master Cemîl Çalışır and his hand-carved döner on wood fire, from Bursa up.

--88.254.132.139 (talk) 14:31, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Article being currently overhauled

Woh that was some work, I'll do the serving styles tomorrow. --85.99.77.96 (talk) 14:22, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Now for anyone that will add ANYthing to that article:

If you will talk about the Western European variant (German, English, Andorran, Monegasque etc.), do it as a footnote or so, as these are derivatives (even "distortions") of the main dish and not the other way around. Know where you belong.

If you have ANY problem concerning sourcing, especially language, please remain in the utter knowledge that this article is about a Turkish dish (not Welsh, nor Andorran) and it is very natural that most of the serious sources will be either in Turkish, or in languages of the former Ottoman Empire, may it be in Greek, Armenian or Arabic. As the Culinary archives of the Empire are incredibly rich, you are always welcome to learn any of these languages at at least a basic level before discussing further. Here: http://www.teachyourselfturkish.com/ or http://www.greek-language.com/learn.greek/

If you accuse me with bias, please know that Waffles are extremely popular in Turkey, and the version here is a very "distorted" variant of the one in Belgium or Lille (only the mold is the same, the dough and the toppings are 300% different). And if (theoretically), there was a huge number of Cuisine-editing Turks on Wikipedia, outnumbering Belgians, and they would transform the article into a Turkocentric version, with the Belgian Waffle as a "footnote", I would also be venimously opposed to that and would try to put things into their place.

Respectfully,

Emir Ali Enç

--85.99.77.96 (talk) 15:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, for you, it is not you who is making the rules about editing on Wikipedia. There is a rule about disruptive eduting and edit waring, and people who edit war may be blocked from editing, and you are wery close to that.

And I have to say that the article looks quite bad now, gaps in the text and an other thing, we generally avoid portraits of people together with food, unless it is an article about chefs. And the general practice is to discuss your changes BEFORE you are making them, not afterwards.

And you simply can not put something like this in a Wikipedia article under an image: The döner meat is being sliced from a rotating spit by Master Cemil Çalışır in Bursa. Note the fire emanating from burning

Thank you. Warrington (talk) 22:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Look, I have no problem that you put whatever "version" you want in its different section as long as you acknowledge which one is the original (Which was not at all the case until recently). Look at how poor was the article until today.

Now the Western-European versions, for purists like me, and to millions in Turkey, are "distortions" in one sense that they "differ" from the original, and differing does not make them "original" either. (Then we'd have an article for each, which we do not). Still, Turkey, the inventor, is the biggest producer and consumer by far, and has the most varieties. Naturally, it will have the lion's part. As I do not know your "versions" it is your duty to add them in a proper way, as they also belong to that article. (And I said proper, since if someone asserts that it is a "German invention" -when the source is a non-academic newsflash that does not even say it- it does not belong to that article).

Normally, around the wold, rules for that kind of thing are pretty strict: Champagne from a region other than Champagne, France is NOT even a Champagne, and I hardly picture portuguese editors on wikipedia trying to overwhelm their french counterparts stating that Champagne is of Portuguese origin, as Portuguese Champagne, is not Champagne, Danish Feta is not "Feta". Both are versions of the two latter. (Monegasque) Döner from Monaco is also not the original, but "a version", and can not have in that article the same weight as the original version, right?

You call the article in bad shape? Well you can help with the formatting, as I am a complete dumb in computers. But if you look at all the factual information I added, you can not say it's "worse" than what it was.

About the picture change, 2 things

1) It's been 5 days that I put a gallery of alternative pictures. No one has responded still, but when it comes to reverting, you are fast.

2) The picture with the Master-cook emphasizes the fact carving the meat is a real craft learnt over years and great Döner Master's can have a frantic following in Turkey which I tried to share. Still I think you are right that in an encyclopedia the lines you put in bold sound inappropriate, almost advertisement-like (certainly not "spam" though.

Finally, you stated "we do have frequently problems with editors of your type from the original country claiming they know better how the article shoul de written and often deleting all other material in the article." ... Hmm, what did I exactly "Delete" that was relevant? And on the other hand, what did you add?

Cheers!

Emir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.99.4.180 (talk) 00:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not going to add anything. It is good that you removed the cook's name. because the name of the cook is advertising , and it is prohibited advertising on Wikipedia, and you do need references.

Warrington (talk) 10:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

If you are not going to add anything then you are not bringing anything to the table, then why are you doing all that fuss? The worst is that you are trying to "teach" me something when you can't give anything, ok maybe your english is not so good and all that, but I am sure you still can help... I mean how can I be accused of "Edit Warring" when I am the only one editing and adding something?

Now let me post parts of your previous message that you edited out:

Unfortunately, for you, it is not you who is making the rules about editing on Wikipedia. Other kebas are NOT distortions (only from your point of wiew, and this is exactly what bias means), and kebab is found nowadays in all kinds of Western European variants (in Denmark, Germany, Sweden, England, Spain, Norway, Andorra, Monegasque etc) as well as in Australia, America and so on, whether you like it or not. This article IS about kebab, but NOT ONLY THE TURKISH kebab, but about kebab in a worldwide perspective, exactly like all the food and drink articles are, ALL OF THEM which have became international dishes, and you would be suprized how many of tem are. The general practice is that there is a section for the original dish and there is others for the dish in other countries, you know. Since this is an English Wikipedia you may expect that people here talk English, and not necessarily Turkish, but that does not mean that they never ate kebab. On the other hand we do have frequently problems with editors of your type from the original country claiming they know better how the article shoul de written and often deleting all other material in the article. There is also a rule about disruptive eduting and edit waring, and people who edit war may be blocked from editing, and you are wery close to that. Warrington (talk) 22:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Well two things:

Actually I researched a little to respond to your queries above, you should know that there is an article named Döner kebab around the world, and you are free to open there any country tab and share with us how döner is prepared and eaten in San Marino or Gibraltar etc. The article is made for this. (obviously)

Still, and I reiterate, as you pointed it out, I badly need help with the formatting, the text should be more flowing or so, and the pictures should be on both of the sides, not just concentrated on the left. I also need help with the reference formatting, just reformat them and I can do the translations for both Greek and Turkish.

Waiting for your answer,

Emir

--81.213.226.108 (talk) 11:37, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I just realized myself that somebody since June removed that part and made it to a separate article. I thougt it was you (sorry). But this is not a wery good solution since people will continue to add German and other stuff to THIS article and mix everything up (as you noticed that yourself). It would be better to have everything in the same place, like it is in other Food and Drink Project articles, there is already to many articles on kebab anyway.

Using Turkish references is OK, and if you translate it, that is even better. I see what I can do about the layout and the refs, but at the moment I have to many things to do at work, see you later.

Cheers

Warrington (talk) 13:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

What kind of help do you need with the sources?

And what about this part you removed (it doesn’t say that he invented döner kebab, only the modern way of serving it (probably in Germany and Western cultures):

The modern version of this fast food was invented by Mahmut Aygün (c.1921-2009). ref name="kebab-died">"The man who invented the doner kebab has died". Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 2009-01-20. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)</ref On opening his Turkish restaurant Hasir in the Kreuzberg district of Berlin, Aygün had the idea of serving traditional sliced lamb meals in warm pita bread instead of on a plate. However, he failed to secure legal protection for his invention.ref>"Berlin - the real birthplace of the doner kebab". Expatica. Retrieved 2009-01-20. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)</ref

Warrington (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all, thanks a lot, I really appreciate your help. We should look at the references as soon you have time off work. (I'm on vacation right now so it won't be a problem for me).

Secondly, I and Dr. Macrakis think that EVERYTHING concerning Döner kebab, maybe including the versions in Greece and Syria that have other names (Gyros and Shawarma) to be merged in one very big article, and naturally the article Döner around the world will participate in the merge. But people were until now venimously opposed to all that. :(

Third, and it's very good that you pointed it out, the telegraph article... I mean look at the title: The-man-who-invented-the-doner-kebab-has-died.html|title=The man who invented the doner kebab has died|publisher=Daily Telegraph|accessdate=2009-01-20, yes inside it actually does say that he (probably) invented the sandwich+salad version, but look at the actual title. I mean if you look up on this talk page you'll see many Germans who ALL believed it was at the end a German invention. Now I did a research on that also and here are my conclusions (open to debate of course):

First, the article is a newsflash from a not so serious media corporation. that does not cite sources either

He never secured a patent while İskenderoğlu did very early in the 1900's, so again that too seems sketchy. (http://istanbulian.blogspot.com/2009/01/dner-kebab-had-invented-by-iskender.html)

He says he invented the "modern" version of it. What is the "modern" version? If its just a plain sandwich with döner, my mom just told me that was around way before the 70's, maybe even in the Ottoman Empire, and Dr. Macrakis also previously pointed out that he ate Döner sandwiches in Greece way before the 70's.

As a conclusion, I think that what he brought is actually not the "modern" version but the what I call "the German Version" with cabbage, lettuce etc. that absolutely never made it here. For us a "modern" version is the "Kaşarlı Dürüm". This is just to show you how subjective this can get. So I think that this article does not belong here per se, but to the "Germany" section of Döner kebab around the world, unless we find a way to integrate it without deteriorating the article. (Many people will go crazy by just seeing the title)

Anyways, I wait for your feedback, and again thank you a lot for everything!!

Respectfully,

Emir Ali Enç - --88.254.240.187 (talk) 16:41, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

(I should get an account :) )

Ok, than that part should go to the German section, because it is about the so called invention of the German döner kebab, in the Kebab around the world article. I do think that this mess, with everything split into too many articles is not very constructive, and it only confuses the readers. What is the best way to do that?

And getting an account is not a bad idea.`..:)

Warrington (talk) 17:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I have checked the Gyros and Shawarma articles, and it is a bit complicated to merge those into the Turkish döner kebab, since they all have separate sections about shawarma and gyros in different countries, but kebab around the world should be in this article (just to avoid the German kebabs being messed up with the Turkish).

Warrington (talk) 17:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I know it's very complicated, everything became a mess. I think that actually in the past Döner kebab around the world and Döner were one same article, but they have been separated following a consensus (which I do not approve 100%). One thing we can do in the shorter term is to put the link for in a more visible way, (maybe), anyways I await your ideas on that. (I'll try something now let me know if you like it). --85.99.4.227 (talk) 21:47, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. And it does not looks like a consesnsus to me, either. If you also think that is a good idea, I think we should put those back into this article. What is the reference issue?

Warrington (talk) 22:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

(I was gonna try to do exactly what Zlerman did but I fell asleep... Then I woke up and checked wikipedia, surprise! :) Thank you Zlerman, anyways!!) --78.166.68.30 (talk) 10:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In response to Warrington's edit comment (12:10 3 March 2009): the cap note was just a temporary stop gap on my part -- to show upfront that there was something else on the subject. I have not thought about the issue of merging the two pieces and I strongly recommend that you continue working in this direction. I hate it when an article is split in different places. Having said that, I will stress, however, that I am one of the editors who very strongly oppose the suggestion of merging gyros and shawarma into doner kebab. But this does not concern the possible merging of doner kebab and Döner kebab around the world (brr..., there is even no redirect from "doner kebab around the world"). So please think about producing an article on doner kebab with a more general, universal outlook. --Zlerman (talk) 13:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not so interested either in merging gyros and shawarma into doner kebab, for the reasons stated above. And I an not very happy when an article is split in different places, eiter. If nobody oppose, I think it will be time to make the article on doner kebab to a more general, universal one, and bring the other döner kebabs back here. Warrington (talk) 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks like nobody is protesting.

Warrington (talk) 12:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

A German food?

Sometimes the disputations in the English wikipedia confuse me a lot. There's no need to prove it. Because Döner Kebab has been eaten in the Turkey (and Armenia) for too many years. (Maybe a few centuries) But the breed that is being produced in Germany; made by Turkish (and Armenian) cooks; that had gone to work there a few decades ago. This is true that Döner Kebab is eaten in European countries, but that is not the justification of what cuisine is this come from. Thanks. --♪♫Berkay^0652|message 17:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

No, it is, of course, a Turkish food, but it became very popular in many other countries too, and some countries, like Germany, are cooking it a bit different from the original döner kebab varieties from Turkey. (like sarma). (It should stay there : the man who popularised döner kebab in Germany). Warrington (talk) 18:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I think what he wants to say is that we, in Turkey all know that Döner is super popular in Germany et al. and it changed like crazy over the years, even to become completely another dish (I think by now, it only has10% in common with the one in Turkey), which the Germans can maybe claim as their own, but for this (and we have trouble understanding that) they need at least to "change" the name... That is my two pennies of opinion :)

--85.99.4.227 (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

You got one penny.

You do not need to wait for an aproval for everything you want to do. At all. It would have been better if you explained this on the talk page before removing a big part of the text, because than it looks like vandalism, and unfortunatelly, vandalism happens every day on Wikipedia, people do a lot of removals and other stupid things just for fun, especially IP adresses. That was the reason why, everything started out quite bad for you.

This is not meant to scare you or prevent you from making further edits to Wikipedia. I would recommend you to create an account if you seriously wish to contribute to Wikipedia, and in such a way other editors will be able to hold a better conversation with you and you'll also be able to present your points with much more validity.

Warrington (talk) 22:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I got my account! :)) I need to build a nice userpage now :))

--Emir Ali Enç (talk) 10:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

So, Emir, now you can see how the döner kebab has influenced the whole world!!!

Warrington (talk) 21:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE INCLUDED IN THIS ONE?

There is no need to discuss Döner is German or not. Because its clear that Döner is a Turkish food and very popular in Eastern Mediterenean, Anatolia and the Balkans for centuries. Germans tasted that food by Turkish immigrants. Maybe they give another appearances but, taste and its origin can not be change by little changes.

Öterbülbül

Turkey

The traditional method of preparation (no minced meat, marination before grilling) and serving (as a main course with sliced pita, pilaf (of bulgur or rice), and melted butter) is most accepted at restaurants. Another way of serving at restaurants is named pilav üstü döner, with slices of döner placed on a bed of rice pilaf and usually garnished with tomatoes, onions, green peppers, etc. However, the prevailing variant sold as fast-food is known as döner sandviç or ekmek arası, a sandwich prepared with döner, a half a loaf of bread (not pita) and a salad (with tomatoes, onions, lettuce, and pickles) but no dressing. Dürüm is also another Turkish döner type which means to wrap in something, in this case a 'thinner bread' like lavash.

Dürüm
A dürüm (Turkish for "roll") is the wrap used to wrap a döner kebab. It is a lavash bread.

No I guess we can remove that, it's a repetition of what's above...

Anyways, congrats again on the merge!!

(Let me work on the references, also) --85.99.32.81 (talk) 22:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Lost your pasword? (Emir?)

Warrington (talk) 23:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

WOOOOPPPPSSS SORRY :))

Ok I checked the "remember me" button now, I will not have to log in every hour !! :)

(That was me, anyway) --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 01:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

That sounds really anoying...:)

Warrington (talk) 11:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

About Döner in Germany

Döner Kebab (the original) is of course not German, but it seems like the Döner sandwich-style variation where meat and salad is stuffed into a flat bread (and that is the only Döner variant what Germans know as Döner) was invented in Germany in the 1960s or 1970s by Turkish immigrants in Germany and it was availble in most western german cities in 1980 and in most german small towns in 1990- so if that claim that the Sandwich-style Döner was inveted by Turkish immigrants in Germany than you can call that Döner variant Turkish-German food (while Döner in general in of cause Turkish)

talkaboutdöner13:39, 26 June 2012 (UTC)~

Help needed

Do you guys see the link number 8 in this article?? It has two sections "a" and "b" as it is a repeated link. I also want the references I posted lately to be the same, as they also repeat. Can anyone help?? --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 15:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey Emir, you mean this link, http://www.kebapciiskender.com.tr/tr/?PID=7? First of all, try using templates for your references; they'll look much better. In this case, "cite web" is the way to go; fill in as many blanks as you can--see Citation templates, scroll down, and copy the entire template, then paste it into the text. Second, to make three references to the same article, the first time you cite it, give it a name by using not simply "ref" but "ref name="kebap", and the next time you need to cite, do this: "ref name="kebap"/"--all in the <> brackets of course. In the last example, the slash indicates 'end of reference.' I'll do you one and leave one for you, OK? You'll have to complete the template, perhaps, since my Turkish is no better than my Russian. ;) Drmies (talk) 18:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey Thank you SOOOOO much!!! I'll look at it ASAP, right after I wake up tomorrow I guess! --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 23:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok I'm doing the template citation, now, looks like a lot of work :)

By the way, Warrington, if I mind asking, where are you from? --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 01:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

IT'S FINALLY DONE!!!! :D :D

OK I'm going to sleep right now!! :)) --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 02:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Consider removing tacos

There's already an article about it, and it's not related to the doner kebab.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacos

Tacos are meat (or vegetables) served on corn (maize) tortillas (flat bread), traditionally. The tortilla is pre-Columbian. The meat may be spit-roasted more or less exactly like the doner kebab, but may also be fried, steamed, or grilled. At least this is the case in the United States. What makes it a taco is the tortilla enfolding the contents, not the meat.

Also in the US, in Los Angeles at least, you can get shawarma and gyros, and they are distinct from each other. You can get them at the same restaurant, sometimes, and they are separate items on the menu. I believe there's a doner kebab shop in Eagle Rock called Spitz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.84.123.27 (talk) 12:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Support the suggestion to remove tacos from this article. Any objections from other editors? --Zlerman (talk) 12:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Support On the contrary! Let's remove it. The presence of "Tacos" link here Sounds like linking a hot dog to "Quesadilla"... --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 23:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Support the suggestion to remove tacos from this article. There are 15,500 doner restaurants in Germany that sell 400 tons of hot doner meat every day. That is more than enough for its own Wikipedia article. There is already an article about tacos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.88.128.138 (talk) 13:38, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Consider creating a separate page for "Tacos Al Pastor"

Tacos Al Pastor are a very specific type of tacos, prepared in a very specific way (with only pork) and is even served at a specific type of day in Mexico and in most cases the process is prepared by a specialist called a "Taquero". While I think there is a historical relationship between Doners/Gyros and tacos al pastor, the only common thing they have is that they are prepared on a vertical cooking spit. However, the cooking tool, is hardly the only distinguishing factor. That's almost akin to say pizzas and cakes should be discussed on the same page because they are baked in ovens. For those reasons I think Tacos Al Pastor deserves their own article and "Tacos Al Pastor" should be referenced to this page.

Anyone looking for what are Tacos Al Pastor are looking for specifics and would not necessarily be interested in a generic discussion about Gyros or even Tacos for that matter. Unfortunately I don't have the Wikipedia experience to take that task on but I am willing to help were I can.

I am collecting support for it's own page here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taco#Tacos_Al_Pastor_needs_it.27s_own_page

--Eglue (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Durum doner

Zlerman, by the way, are you sure the names in Turkish of the different Dürüms should be decapitalized? Some of them, like "Tombik" (Fatty) can be considered a proper noun like "Camembert" would. Or maybe it is incorrect? You gotta help me there! --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 23:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Food items are normally not capitalized in English unless they are associated with the name of a person, the name of a place, a brand name, etc. Durum is just a flat bread. --Zlerman (talk) 02:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Durum? I thought it was a cultivar of wheat. --176.239.70.226 (talk) 16:54, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Kebab in Mexico

The article claims that the relationship between the kebab and tacos al pastor is unknown. However, the article on Shawarma explains the introduction of the rotating grill, or trompo by Lebanese inmigrants in 1920's to Mexican cousine. Altfuns (talk) 02:54, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Revamp

This article re-needs a revamp. It has been vandalized oh too many times. I'll do it this week on.

--78.179.195.231 (talk) 05:15, 11 November 2010 (UTC) (Emir)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. Dpmuk (talk) 02:08, 18 November 2010 (UTC) ~~~~

Doner kebab → döner kebab — The original Turkish name is "döner kebab" with an umlaut over the o. So is the case with the name in Germany and Finland, where the dish is also very popular. Just because native English speakers cannot understand the letter "ö" is no reason to have this article under a false name. That's what redirects are for. JIP | Talk 19:54, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

We use what English-language sources use. I strongly suspect that's the version without the umlaut. Powers ^T 21:23, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and use English. Johnbod (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Doner is not an English word, it is just typical for people to falsely "translate" it because they can't or don't want to use the umlaut. There is no indication that Doner kebab is the common, actual name, just a common misspelling. Reywas92^Talk 22:59, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's in the dictionary as "doner kebab", and all of the English-language sources referenced in this article use "doner kebab", including BBC News Magazine and The Guardian. Those are some pretty reliable sources. Powers ^T 23:49, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. English has generally adopted the non-umlaut spelling. The OED's entry is also at "doner kebab", with no umlaut, though it gives usage examples with the umlaut and offers "döner kebab" as an alternate, secondary spelling. That's a pretty good indication that OED at least considers the standard form in English to be non-umlaut. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:50, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Oppose as per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH arguments already presented above. --DAJF (talk) 02:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Oppose WP:Use English. This does not use accents in English. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 05:59, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Oppose and early close under WP:SNOW. This is a soapy request that completely ignores policy. Andrewa (talk) 00:08, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Oppose, in addition to the other points raised here - isn't the Turkish actually döner kebap or döner kebabı. Pahari Sahib 19:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Guys, I will re-request this move as soon as possible. None of us, original contributors to this article were notified, hence our voices not heard. Please take in note. Thank you. --78.170.194.120 (talk) 12:47, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Page offline

The reference http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/TechandScience/Story/STIStory_507973.html is offline/the page is not avaliable. --Onegin (talk) 17:39, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Vendors in Switzerland

I changed the sentence in the part about Döner Kebab in Switzerland from "mit oder ohni mit scharf" to "mit oder mit ohni scharf", because they never say the first one. And it's grammatically more correct then the other one, which does fully make no sense.(188.63.100.80 (talk) 15:00, 12 June 2011 (UTC))

Ambiguity about shawarma

I see there's consensus above not to merge, but both this article and shawarma suggest, in places, that they are the same thing. --Chriswaterguy talk 11:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Separate article for gyros

I search "Gyros", am redirected to "Doner kebab", and see nothing but Turkish glory. Anyone else see what I'm getting at? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.99.168 (talk) 06:07, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

It is the glory of the Ottoman Empire. We taught many Turkish dishes to the other peoples of the Empire and learned a few from them; like "Çerkez tavuğu" for example. You have your gyro article, enjoy it.. --E4024 (talk) 10:38, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Look for gyro (food) article. It is easy to reach also from the "gyro" disambiguation page. --E4024 (talk) 22:00, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Help request

Could a more experienced user add a "hidden note" to inform our enthusiastic users not to add "shawarma" and "gyro" info here, as those varieties have their own articles. Thank you in advance. --E4024 (talk) 12:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Shawarma issue

Please see previous discussions. There is no basis for taking out this information. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 21:20, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if I understand correctly: I am taking out "shawarma" sections to "shawarma" article. For example in many Latin American countries there are Arab populations who continue to serve this food. Colombia, Costa Rica, Paraguay etc they all know "shawarma" and have not heard of "döner". As we have a "shawarma" article it is most normal to have that info in that article. Best regards. --E4024 (talk) 22:04, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Saw your edit and reverted it. Sorry. The current edit also says "similar". If they were the same there would not be two (or three) different names. I have eaten all those things and read on them. If they are all the same, they should "merge" in this article, the most common name. They don't and it is better this way; let us respect local cultures. You cannot oblige a perso to eat pork if s/he wants beef or lamb or vice versa. Thanks for understanding. --E4024 (talk) 22:12, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

(I changed the section title because the above section is still waiting for a respose.) Now, please look at this: Shawarma is eaten with tabbouleh, fattoush, taboon bread, tomato, and cucumber. Toppings include tahini, hummus, pickled turnips and amba." I took the above from the "shawarma" article (this part also edited by you). If I show this to a Turk who is not from the Hatay province at the Syrian border, s/he would not know none of those words in brackets, except maybe "hummus" which has become more known in other parts of Turkey since the 80s (but has not yet entered into a döner dürüm). Tabbouleh, fattush etc are not only foreign words to us, but we, generally, do not know these dishes. Other than the difference of the meat and its preparation, the service and acompanying side dishes are totally different from "döner". I have eaten shawarma plates with fries (which is quite rare in Turkey) and pickled turnips in Beirut (and loved it!) but in Turkey -leave aside eating them with döner- we do not even make turnip pickles!.. It is a different culture... --E4024 (talk) 22:42, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Revamp

This article has, since quite a time been moving backwards, instead of forward. Now what do we do? We have on our hands a failed marriage with Gyros and Shawarma followed by a bitter divorce. I always have been supportive of the merge, as their origin is the same. One is a burger from BK the other is a burger from Quick (a belgian franchise, boasting the überdelicious Quick'n Toast, at the end they are both burgers.

The main picture, I am not even mentioning how big of a disgrace it is.

Now I looked in history to a point where the article, with its general shape and all looked like something, while giing facts in a clear manner. You are free to transport from "newer" versions references and so. It has been two maybe three years now that I have not logged in. So my waking back as a wikipedian will sure take some time.

Cheers to all,

Emir Ali Enç --88.253.96.234 (talk) 13:33, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Who was the inventor?

There seem to be conflicting claims about who invented the Doner kebab:-

The Daily Telegraph says it was Mahmut Aygun whio died in January 2009 [2]
The BBC says it was Kadir Nurman who died on 26 October 2013 [3]

Are there any other claims? Or any additional references to support one of these claims? - Arjayay (talk) 15:44, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

None of them invented anything really: Both Döner and Pide (flat bread) have been eaten, and together, in Turkey for centuries. Did Columbus discover America or was it always there but the Europeans were not aware... --80.123.196.102 (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

if you know the country of these Turkish men immigrated, then can add them both in the section of that country - KazekageTR —Preceding undated comment added 08:27, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Here in Slovakia

we are eating tourists, because we are not in Europe :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.127.162.154 (talk) 15:00, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Photos of disgusting minced/ground meat presented as Döner Kebab. → NO. NO. NO!

Döner is ONLY Döner, if made from meat *pieces*! Minced, or worse, even ground meat does NEVER belong in there! Ever! In Germany it’s illegal to even call it “Döner Kebab” in those cases. (They then call it „Drehspieß nach Döner-Art“ [„Döner-style rotary spit“] or something like that.)

PLEASE don’t put photos of that fake shit in this article! There’s already enough people getting ripped off with that disgusting cheap fake shit!

— 87.78.164.187 (talk) 09:00, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Germany

Most restaurants don't use lamb because chicken is cheaper, not because of German eating habits. I know one restaurant where you can get a lamb döner, but it's a mix of lamb and chicken. A pure lamb döner wouldn't be very beneficial. --2.245.79.34 (talk) 21:09, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Canadian

Not all places have the sweet sauce, I personally hate it. The other kind I've had is more like tzatziki, a lot more garlic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.252.134.230 (talk) 15:25, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Confusing word "horizontal"

The word "horizontal" under one of the images is misleading/confusing, since the photo shows a spit on it's side which makes the direction vertical on the photo. The word can easily be omitted from the sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalgard (talk • contribs) 18:42, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Shape

As someone is questioning the obvious: if one takes a look at new produced Doner, it's really obvious. And btw: reverting with 'since no explanation was given' comment seems a little hypocritical, if the same user has had changed the article without equally giving no explanation. @ Owen214: where did you get this 'cylindrical shape' from? Maybe you can provide some sources? --Markscheider (talk) 05:12, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

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"Not to be confused with kebab" is confusing.

In the U.K., Australia, and elsewhere, the word for Döner Kebap is "Kebab". So reading at the top of the article, "not to be confused with Kebab", is confusing. IamNotU (talk) 16:29, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Indeed - placed in main text and clarified. Johnbod (talk) 18:06, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I worked on it a little more, and also (a lot) more on the kebab page. Hopefully it's clear! IamNotU (talk) 04:18, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

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Taxi Driver reference

I removed the Taxi Driver reference, "A sign for döner kebab is briefly seen in the first few minutes of Martin Scorsese's Taxi Driver, indicating that it was already present in New York by 1976", as being original research. Unfortunately, a fictional film isn't a reliable source for the stated conclusion.

I looked at the shot in the film, and it appears to be of "Syntagma Square", a Greek restaurant near Times Square at the time.[4] On the awning above the sign, you can see the words "souvlaki" and "gyros". The fact that gyros was being sold in New York is verified by the New York Times reference in the History section. That reference does also mention "doner kebab", but it's not clear if it was being sold under that name by Greeks in New York. While it's possible, it's also entirely possible that the filmmakers put the sign there as set dressing, not an unusual practice for a big budget Hollywood film. We can't know for sure. The shot looks "documentary" style, but it's almost certainly staged, and the people in it are "extras", actors. It would be interesting to know if "gyros" and "doner kebab" were used interchangeably by the same Greek restaurant, but I think we'd need an authentic photograph or other reliable source, to verify. --IamNotU (talk) 02:46, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

RFP

See WP:RFP#Doner kebab.

Just plain Bill (talk) 16:37, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

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Health concerns

I don't believe that it can be considered a legitimate health concern about kebab that it may sometimes be consumed as a "form of fast food, often as an end to a night out when preceded by the consumption of alcohol". The drinking of alcohol is a health concern of its own.Royalcourtier (talk)

I don't think beef is used in doner kebabs

I think that only lamb, veal, or chicken are the only meats used in kebabs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreakyBoy (talk • contribs) 15:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 20 January 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus; revert to Doner kebab. This discussion sought to overturn an undiscussed bold move and in the absence of consensus the title must default to the status quo ante. Timrollpickering 19:38, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Döner kebab → Doner kebab – Revert undiscussed move. Reason given was ""Doner" is not an English word", but it is. See OED, Collins, Webster, etc.; standard spelling in contemporary English is "doner kebab". IamNotU (talk) 15:58, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). ToThAc (talk) 16:45, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Support since that's its common name in English, though I think some more discussion might be needed on this move, considering that it's not initially clear which variation is used more often (some dictionaries still use the diaeresis). (It's also move-protected.) ToThAc (talk) 16:45, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Oppose per all the English books saying "a Döner kebab" (in which both "a.." and "...kebab" are English words); in which country are English speakers not aware that "Döner" is a Turkish word? Even the napkin in the article shows "Döner". Kebab is an English word yes, from Arabic, and arrived long before döner, but döner is not an English word, it is only used for one particular type of kebab, the Turkish kebab. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:53, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it's a Turkish word! But by now, because of its huge popularity, it has also become accepted into English, and is listed in English dictionaries. It's called a loanword, it's now officially also part of the English language. Because this is the English-language Wikipedia, we must use the English-language name for a thing, if there is one. Personally I always use the spelling "döner", which is also acceptable in English, and I think everyone else should too. All over Europe it's spelled that way, including Hungary, where the picture of the napkin was taken. I also wish the article would be named "Döner kebab"! Unfortunately, I can't change it according to my opinion, but only based on what reliable published sources say. According to the most reliable sources, such as the Oxford English Dictionary, the Collins Dictionary, and others, English speakers have anglicized it and most often spell it with a plain "o" (probably because the don't have ö on their keyboards, and there are almost no words in English with an ö). I'm very sorry about that, but Wikipedia has to use the common English name, even if it's "wrong". --IamNotU (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Admittedly, it's hard to infer tone over the internet, but I'm getting quite a condescending vibe from your comment, to be honest. I think we all know what a loanword is. What we're discussing isn't whether or not döner is a loanword, but whether or not the "doner" spelling is prevalent enough to be considered its common name. —mountainhead / ? 17:23, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

You both said it's "not an English word", which seemed to me a strange thing to say, considering it's in the Oxford and Collins dictionaries. I had forgotten the term for "borrowed word", so I looked it up and found the "loanword" article. I'm not an etymology expert. It helped me understand some things, so I put a link in the main article and in my comment, I thought maybe it would help others too. Also, not everyone reading this is fluent in English. I usually try to keep my Wikipedia writing plain and simple. I'm sorry if that seems condescending, it's not meant to be. --IamNotU (talk) 20:39, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Comment I think this shouldn't be a "contested request" discussion. Per WP:RMUM, a bold/undiscussed page move, as mountainhead (talk · contribs) made yesterday, may only be done if "it seems unlikely anyone would reasonably disagree with the move". Even if they believed that in good faith, WP:RMUM continues, "If you disagree with such a move, and the new title has not been in place for a long time, you may revert the move. If you cannot revert the move for technical reasons then you may request a technical move."

Since page-move protection prevents reverting the move, either it should be done right away through the technical "request to revert undiscussed move", or move-protection should have prevented an undiscussed move in the first place. It's completely against the purpose of page protection to allow everyone to make a bold/undiscussed move of a move-protected page, by claiming that it's an "uncontroversial technical request" (WP:RM#TR), and then to block the possibility of quickly reverting it when challenged! I would ask that the revert be carried out without delay. After that, again per WP:RMUM, if the bold editor wants to challenge the revert, they must request a controversial move at WP:RM#CM.

In this case it's just a small spelling issue. But I think there should be a clear general policy that if a move-protected page is moved via an "uncontroversial technical request", then if it's challenged, the revert should be carried out immediately. --IamNotU (talk) 19:05, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

I completely agree. This very recent undiscussed move should have been speedily reverted to doner kebab as a technical request, especially since it was stable at that title since 2010 and there was a strong consensus for doner kebab at a previous move request. This article should be moved back unless there is a strong consensus for the name with the diacritic. Station1 (talk) 21:51, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Comments Either spelling works, and with the appropriate redirect in place, will be unlikely to confuse any reader. I do not believe the napkin in the image is dispositive one way or another, especially without seeing evidence that it represents a doner/shawarma presentation in an English-speaking area.

By the way, I do not believe the diacritic in question is a diaeresis; I've heard cognizant speakers calling it an umlaut. For example, I've always heard and said "çöp" (garbage) as a curt monosyllable without a diphthong or other syllabic complication that a diaeresis would entail. Sourced persuasive enlightenment on this minor issue welcome, if anyone feels it's important. Just plain Bill (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

In English, there's no difference in pronunciation between "doner kebab" and "döner kebab", so I guess it should be called neither "umlaut" nor "diaeresis". Maybe "trema"? In Turkish, ö is a separate letter of the alphabet. I don't know what the correct word for the dots is, either in English or in Turkish. The napkin image was taken in Budapest. --IamNotU (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@Just plain Bill: I reworded the etymology section a little, based on your comment. What do you think? Thanks for pointing it out, as I wasn't really comfortable with the word "diaeresis" either.

Looks OK to me. It seems that Ö is considered a separate letter in the Turkish alphabet, if Wikipedia is to be believed, compared with the various flavors of E in French orthography being one letter marked by various diacritics. If there is a meaningful difference between "trema" and "diaeresis," I am unaware of it. On we go... Just plain Bill (talk) 04:36, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

I was the one who requested this move. Allow me to clarify.

I posted this request in the uncontroversial section because "döner" was used throughout the page, and the use of this spelling did not appear to be contested. I was unaware of a prior move, and requested this one in good faith. I've personally hardly ever encountered the "doner" spelling, so it was my assumption that the person who created the article was simply unable to type the ö character.

As for "döner" being a loanword, compare fiancé(e), whose most common spelling still includes a diacritic. I find it quite one-sided to assume that "doner" is the "common English spelling", even if sources don't really provide any sort of consensus. "Doner" isn't a respelling; it merely omits the diacritic, and I believe that's because English speakers generally don't have those on their keyboards, and not because it's now a "proper English word". At least as far as I can see, "döner" is still very much viewed as a Turkish term (unlike, say, "debut"), so I believe it should retain its Turkish spelling. —mountainhead / ? 00:40, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Comment. Per WP:DIACRITICS we should "follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language (including other encyclopedias and reference works)". So, how do other encyclopedias and books (rather than Ghits and newspapers) typically spell the word? WWGB (talk) 01:15, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree on WP:DIACRITICS. In addition to the Oxford English Dictionary and Collins English Dictionary citations already given in the Etymology section, I can add:

"Bursa is the town that gave birth to the world-famous doner kebab, meat roasted on a vertical revolving spit." - The Cambridge world history of food. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. 2000. p. 1147. ISBN 0521402166. OCLC 44541840.

"doner kebab" (title of section) "(or döner kebabı or even, in Canada, Donair)" - Alan., Davidson, (2006). The Oxford Companion to Food (2nd ed ed.). Oxford: OUP Oxford. ISBN 9780191018251. OCLC 862049879. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

"doner kebab - Thin slices of raw lamb meat with fat and seasoning [...] döner kebabi - Turkey The authentic Turkish version of doner kebab" - G., Sinclair, Charles (2005). Dictionary of food : international food and cooking terms from A to Z (2nd ed ed.). London: A & C Black. p. 181. ISBN 9781408102183. OCLC 436848492. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

And it's only a newspaper, but The New York Times normally uses "doner kebab" unless the article is about Berlin. --IamNotU (talk) 02:29, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose: Both spellings appear common—"doner" doesn't appear to have obliterated the use of "döner" in English at all, even if it's perhaps more frequent. In that case, it should default to the diacriticked version until it can be shown that it's become rare. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:20, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree with this reasoning. —mountainhead / ? 01:25, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Comment Since the recent undiscussed move has still not been reverted by an admin, and there still seemed to be some question about how prevalent the anglicized spelling is, I did some further research. The Wikipedia guidelines cited in the 2010 consensus to oppose the same move and reasoning were WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH. As advised in WP:COMMONNAME, I did a Google site-search of the online articles of major newpapers. For example, The Daily Telegraph and The Times both returned several hundred results for "doner kebab", and zero results for "döner kebab". In fact, every English-language newspaper of record listed by Wikipedia, from the New York Times through The Hindu to the New Zealand Herald, seems to use "doner kebab" almost exclusively, with a few rare exceptions for articles usually about Turkey or Germany. There were some with small sample sizes, in Singapore, Malaysia, Kenya, Canada, and Jamaica. Every other media outlet I checked in the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand, had a similar pattern of near-exclusive use of "doner" vs "döner" kebab (though it should be noted that "kebab" on its own is actually the most common name in those countries' media, "doner kebab" still has very wide use). Furthermore, USA Today, the Los Angeles Times, the New York Post, the Washington Post, and the Canadian National Post, as well as the BBC, Fox News, CNN, MSN, and CBC, all had clearly prevalent or almost exclusive use of "doner kebab". Even in the English-language offerings of the Turkish Daily Sabah and The Hurriyet, a significant number (about 15%) use "doner kebab", even for local articles about Turkey, by Turkish journalists, writing in English. This is clearly not a case of people simply being unable to find the Ö key on their keyboards!

A simple search of English books on Google books, and of scientific papers on Elsevier, seems to show "doner kebab" as somewhat more prevalent, though the results are not accurate enough to draw a conclusion. As noted above, many of the world's most reliable and authoritative reference books such as the Collins and Oxford English Dictionaries, and the Cambridge World History of Food, prefer the anglicized spelling.

WP:ENGLISH also says to consider the citations given in the article, and that if "one name or version of the name stands out as clearly the most commonly used in the English language, we should follow the sources and use it." I checked the sources, and of the English-language sources cited, 32 use "doner kebab", while 6 use "döner kebab"; of the latter, 4 are articles about Turkey and the middle east, and 2 about Germany. Even if we ignore the media, the citations, and the reference books - which we shouldn't! - it seems impossible to make the argument that "döner kebab" is more commonly used in English. The most that could be said is that it's divided use. In that case, I believe the intent of WP:ENGLISH would still support the more anglicized version when there is one. In any case, WP:DIVIDEDUSE is clear: "When there is evenly divided usage and other guidelines do not apply, leave the article name at the latest stable version". The article has been stable at "doner kebab" for the past fourteen years. --IamNotU (talk) 22:50, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Döner in Turkey needs expanding

Given that döner is (arguably) Turkish, it would be nice to see the section 'Döner in Turkey' expanded; currently there is IMHO too much emphasis on the 'regional variations' which have little to do with the original Turkish dish. Also, would be great if we could get more pictures of authentic döner (ie. ekmekarası and/or dürüm, maybe also pilavüstü), to contrast against those 'regional variations' with their salads and dressings etc. I don't know about the rest of you good folks, but in all my time of living and travelling in Turkey, I've never had döner in any form other than inside bread (ekmekarası, dürüm) or à la Iskender — either way, no salad or mayo-based dressings anywhere in sight (and so much the better for it, if you ask me!). :) DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:28, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@DoubleGrazing: you are more than welcome to edit the article yourself, and expand the section! Please ensure though, that any statments and information are verifiable through reliable sources. Wikipedia strives to present a balanced and neutral outlook, based on authoritative published material. Although it's reasonable to have a greater focus in the article on Turkish döner, value judgements based on which variant is more "authentic", "original", or "better" than others are not useful to creating a factual encyclopedia providing information on a wide range of topics for an international audience. Thanks for your understanding... --IamNotU (talk) 11:55, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@IamNotU: I thought you might say that, and once I can get hold of some pix I will indeed edit this myself unless someone else beats me to it. Just to point out for the record, though, I did not say that the Turkish döner is 'better' (even if I do think so myself!) than other variants, only that it is the more authentic, which should be the case pretty much axiomatically, given that döner is a Turkish dish, and not German, Canadian, Finnish, etc. (for what it's worth). DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:03, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@DoubleGrazing: the problem is that words like authentic also tend to imply a value judgement that it is superior. Authentic, original, genuine, proper, bona fide, legitimate, the real thing, valid, etc., vs. antonyms that have a generally negative connotation such as inauthentic, fake, copy, counterfeit, imitation, phony, ripoff, etc. There is a real and ongoing problem in this and related articles, with people of various nationalities insisting that the version of a dish from their own region is the one true authentic and legitmate one, with a kind of fervor seemingly second only to that reserved for football teams! They have attempted to re-write articles to reflect their prideful points of view, and to denigrate and erase versions from other regions - in this case often shawarma and gyros - with phrases like "it has nothing to do with the original" (see this article's history for many examples). You seem like a reasonable person and I don't think you're taking such an extreme view as that (otherwise I wouldn't have replied!) but I feel it's important to point out.

The reality is that a popular dish rarely arises fully-formed from one town or one genius chef, but evolves often over centuries, in a process that brings together many histories and influences. The main ingredient of döner, pieces of meat roasted on a spit in front of a fire, can be traced back to times even before modern humans, Homo sapiens, existed! Certainly Turkish döner is a high point in the evolution, and in one sense is 100% Turkish, but in another it didn't really start there and won't end there. I disagree that "döner is a Turkish dish, and not German, Canadian..."; there's no reason it can't be both, and in my opinion, a Berlin Döner or Halifax donair is just as "authentic" as one from Istanbul. You may prefer one or the other, but worldwide, the most popular form of döner now includes sauces and copious salads, mainly based on the developments by Turkish-German cooks in 1970-80s Berlin. Let's try to acknowledge that one region's famous dish is invariably based in part on many earlier developments from other regions, and will invariably be taken up and transformed in new regions, without taking away from that dish's fame. Let's celebrate the diversity of inventive variations, that pay tribute to traditional versions while creatively devising new forms, without the need to disparage them as being inauthentic or illegitimate. --IamNotU (talk) 14:15, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@IamNotU: I still don't quite agree that 'authentic' equals or necessarily even implies 'superior' — you may well think it does, but I beg to differ; perhaps we just have to agree to disagree on this. Be that as it may, I've no need to go to war over this, so I will just bow out and let the article remain as it stands. DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@DoubleGrazing: I don't mean to discourage you, or anyone, from expanding the Turkish section!! I think it's a fine idea. I'm perhaps a bit sensitive today, as I spent several hours yesterday trying to clean up yet another food article that has been the victim of a very long edit war, with people reverting/promoting various national origins, insisting theirs is the authentic original and the rest just pale inauthentic imitations, undeserving of mention. I got involved in the döner article some years back after I kept reading that the döner is a German invention (e.g. [5] [6]), which is promotional propaganda, but at the same time saying that it is exclusively authentically Turkish, is I think not accurate either. You say that döner "is a Turkish dish, and not German"; would you say that gyros is a Turkish dish, and not Greek? I'm generally suspicious of claims about the purity of origin of things. And I do maintain that the word authentic is used most often in a promotional tone, with inauthentic having very negative connotations - "a real döner doesn't have salads and dressings". It's ok if that's your opinion, but I certainly would not accept the word being used in the article. Again though, I would honestly welcome any contribution towards expanding the information about Turkey, from someone knowledgeable in the subject! --IamNotU (talk) 17:03, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Main kebab composition in France

Hello.
The most popular kebab recipe in France is: bread stuffed with döner meat shavings, lettuce, sliced tomato and onions, with a sauce —often mayonnaise— within a choice including sauce blanche.
The ingredients should be written in that exact order, as it is typically ordered that way.
Due to the page protection, I cannot apply the changes myself.--Braaark (talk) 16:25, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi Braaark, thanks for your suggestion. Could you provide a reliable source for the information please? The existing source describes it:

"tender lamb or chicken ... stuffed inside a circular piece of bread ... a fistful of fries makes its way inside the sandwich, followed by the usual suspects: tomato, onion, lettuce. I ask for mine to be doused in sauce blanche, or white sauce, a mayo-yogurt condiment."[7]

If you think this isn't correct, it would require a better source saying otherwise. Thanks. --IamNotU (talk) 18:15, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Sure: [8], [9]. In french, sadly. Are these sources enough ?--Braaark (talk) 18:50, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

@IamNotU: … and I ping you. The section has not been corrected yet.--Braaark (talk) 20:29, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi Braaark, sorry I didn't answer before, thanks for reminding me. I've made a change to the article, and added the second source you gave as a citation. I didn't include "most popular kebab recipe in France", nor what you wrote about the sauce, as it wasn't supported by the citations. I find it unlikely that the "sauce blanche" is actually Béchamel sauce. One other thing, I notice in the French Wikipedia fr:kebab article (which unfortunately says little about French doner kebabs) that there is a significant amount of misinformation - especially about the death of Mehmet Aygün who invented the Doner kebab in Berlin - it wasn't invented by him, and not in Berlin, and he's not dead... --IamNotU (talk) 21:37, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you IamNotU for these changes. Some points should be corrected, though:

the sauce blanche isn't a mayo-yogurt sauce. A "yogurt sauce", and nothing more, describes it better;
the citation should be put just after "lettuce, sliced tomato and onions,".

I'll examine the problem of a possible misinformation in the french Wiki.--Braaark (talk) 12:16, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome Braaark! I put the new citation at the end of the paragraph because it also supports some other points in it. The original source says that sauce blanche is "a mayo-yogurt condiment". I did a quick search for "sauce blanche" "kebab", and found numerous recipes showing mayo mixed with yoghurt, so I don't see that there's reason to doubt it. --IamNotU (talk) 15:29, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

The true sauce blanche has no mayonnaise. The french article on this subject is highly reliable. Plus I didn't eat any so called "sauce blanche" with mayonnaise in my entire life. I let you decide. Thanks anyway for your concern.--Braaark (talk) 23:58, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Braaark, I know what true sauce blanche is, I make it at home. However, I'm not convinced that the "white sauce" served in kebab shops in France is the same thing as "true" French white sauce, since the sources we have say otherwise. It would require a more reliable source to contradict the other source that says the white kebab sauce is a mayo-yoghurt sauce, and say that it's actually sauce blanche/bechamel instead. The white kebab sauce that I'm familiar with is definitely oil-based. --IamNotU (talk) 00:32, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, I'm not totally certain here and sources are the only valuable authority. I won't insist. Thank you, IamNotU, for your prudence.--Braaark (talk) 05:28, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 December 2018

This edit request to Doner kebab has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change salad to lettuce, throughout article. 136.49.42.170 (talk) 15:05, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. programmingGeek(talk, contribs) 16:12, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Tacos al Pastor as a form of Doner Kebab in the US

These are common items at many non-chain Mexican restaurants throughout the US, although I'm not sure how to cite this outside of restaurant menus, which would feel too much like advertising (and don't include a large enough sample size to be meaningful regardless). I know that I can get them at nearly every "mom & pop" style Mexican restaurant I've been to in the Northern US, anyway, but that's not sufficient to make a statement here. Does anyone have thoughts on what would constitute a good reference for this? A Shortfall Of Gravitas (talk) 16:25, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

A Shortfall Of Gravitas, if you look in the al pastor article (which is linked from the paragraph on Mexico in this article), there's a reference there that mentions the US. It's a start anyway, shouldn't be that hard to find more or better ones, for example just Google "al pastor" and choose the "News" link, that should give you some reliable secondary source newspaper articles. Good luck! --IamNotU (talk) 20:31, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Canada: Availability

I moved from Montreal to suburban Ottawa South in 1990, and donair was already a thing here (e.g. David's Pizza). Indeed, it would be several more decades until I learned it originally came from my father's home province od Nova Scotia. Maybe "TGAM" is not the reliable source purported by other editors... 76.69.87.57 (talk) 19:36, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 May 2022

This edit request to Doner kebab has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

and Mexican al pastor devired from this.[2][3][4]

change devired to derived 2A02:8109:1EBF:8FE4:DB9:1A6F:4AE7:E3D (talk) 08:59, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for catching that. Station1 (talk) 09:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

donairs in nova scotia

Unify döner kebab, gyro, and shwarma articles?

removal of picture of Donor kebab meat being cut from spit

Two Dots over the letter 'o'

Oltu?

Proposed merge

DO NOT ADD TO GYROS

Update to the Donair Section in regards to Halifax Nova Scotia and it's History

Confirmation of Locality

German section straying from the topic

donair, kebab, gyro, shawarma is all the same - merge

Rotting Meat

donair merge

Alphabetical?

Doner Kebab is non-European?

Merge with "shawarma"?

Rating for WPTR

See also: Food poisoning?

Denizz

Awful introducton

Kebap is not doner

Halifax donair

Merger and a new article?

Citation needed?

Doner kebab around the world

Origin

Unreferenced statement

Bad Image

Advertisement

Article being currently overhauled

A German food?

Turkey

About Döner in Germany

Help needed

Consider removing tacos

Consider creating a separate page for "Tacos Al Pastor"

Durum doner

Kebab in Mexico

Revamp

Requested move

Page offline

Vendors in Switzerland

Ambiguity about shawarma

Separate article for gyros

Help request

Shawarma issue

Revamp

Who was the inventor?

Here in Slovakia

Photos of disgusting minced/ground meat presented as Döner Kebab. → NO. NO. NO!

Germany

Canadian

Confusing word "horizontal"

Shape

External links modified

"Not to be confused with kebab" is confusing.

External links modified

Taxi Driver reference

RFP

External links modified

External links modified

Health concerns

I don't think beef is used in doner kebabs

Requested move 20 January 2018

Döner in Turkey needs expanding

Main kebab composition in France

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 December 2018

Tacos al Pastor as a form of Doner Kebab in the US

Canada: Availability

Semi-protected edit request on 22 May 2022