Talk:Doublespeak/Archive 2

ORWELL continued

I am also in shock that Orwell was not even mentioned in article. The moment I have more time I will be back to clean up this page.

Jacqbennett 14:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacqbennett (talk • contribs)

I am not surprised Orwell is not mentioned, in the novel "Nineteen Eighty-four", the term is Doublethink. There is obfuscation of political rhetoric is covered by the use of Newspeak which needs the ability to Doublethink but not "Doublespeak", a word that does not appear in the novel. ATurtle05 (talk) 09:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Doublethink, from OED

"doublethink [Coined by ‘George Orwell’ (see quot. 1949) from DOUBLE a. 5 + THINK n.]

The mental capacity to accept as equally valid two entirely contrary opinions or beliefs.

1949 ‘G. ORWELL’ Nineteen Eighty-Four I. iii. 37 His mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy. 1953 Encounter Nov. 26/1 He will react..either with straight abuse or with devious double-think. 1957 T. KILMARTIN tr. Aron's Opium of Intellectuals 119 How can one condemn the Soviet Union, since the failure of the Bolshevik enterprise would be the failure of Marxism and therefore of history itself? This is an admirable piece of philosophical double-think, typical of our latter-day intelligentsia. 1959 Daily Tel. 13 Nov. 12/2 They ask for increases in wages which are plainly impossible; or they pretend they want a shorter working week when they really want more overtime. Their followers know double-think when they see it, as well as the employers. 1969 New Scientist 2 Oct. 18/1 This symposium exhibited a form of intellectual doublethink that could pay lip service to global starvation one minute, and assume Britain would always be able to import most of her food the next."

Quoted to give context from the OED, though doublespeak is not in the OED. It is my impression, from the way I have heard it used and the way I use it myself, is that doublespeak has to connote two things that are in conflict with one another, something like an oxymoron. Given that, I don't think doublespeak has to refer to a single word, as is implied by the article now, and in fact I would find it difficult to refer to a single word as doublespeak. Phrases are much more likely to be able to qualify. I agree that single words would probably qualify as euphamism or oxymoron. An example of doublespeak to me is (not to further politicize this, but it is what is on my mind right now) "We intend to spread democracy to the world. We are giving General Musharraf and Pakistan (a military dictatorship that overthrew a democratic government) a few dozen F-16s." I agree that the vast majority of examples on this page probably ought to be removed. Some of the words may also be classified as examples of ironic usage.

Doublespeak is now in the OED--it redirects to double-talk, defined as: Verbal expression intended to be, or which may be, construed in more than one sense; deliberately ambiguous or imprecise language; used esp. of political language that is subject to arbitrary national or party interpretation.

First used: 1948, W. H. Auden Age of Anxiety vi. 125 And all species of space respond in our own Contradictory dialect, the double talk Of ambiguous bodies. 68.148.173.40 (talk) 02:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Trump

Suggest merging with the wiki article on Donald Trump and alternative facts. ;-) 82.25.154.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:47, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Definition

Though here I read some very interesting discussion that I am grateful for, nowhere on this page did I see an actual definition for the word "Doublespeak". I suggest it be the first or second category. It should be...

• 1 Definition
• 2 Origins and concepts
• 3 Theoretical approaches
• 3.1 Conflict theories
• 3.2 Contemporary writings,

etc. And by the way, I don't think the Talk Page is a place for making jokes. The above suggestion about merging with the wiki article on Donald Trump should be removed. TropicalCoder (talk) 12:23, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

@TropicalCoder: AFAIK, there is no "definition" since it's basically the product of a literary work (1984, which left the concept undefined). I don't know what theoretical approaches you have in mind, but make sure they come with appropriate sources. Kleuske (talk) 15:05, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Given that there is, no definitive definition, the lead is, in essence the definition - a coalescence of the sources. Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 15:43, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

"theoretical approaches" comes from the list of contents for this Doublespeak page - not me. The word Doublespeak has been around long enough to gain meaning.

Merriam Webster defines it as: language used to deceive usually through concealment or misrepresentation of truth.

Google defines it as... dou·ble·speak ˈdəbəlˌspēk noun deliberately euphemistic, ambiguous, or obscure language. "the art of political doublespeak" synonyms: equivocating, evasion, dodging, beating about the bush, pussyfooting (around); jargon, double-talk, gibberish, gobbledygook; informal-speak, -ese, -babble "they throw in just enough doublespeak to make you forget that they're trying to sell you something you don't really need" TropicalCoder (talk) 20:39, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Attribution to George Orwell

According to the List of Newspeak words, Doublespeak was not coined by George Orwell, but this article says it was. Which one of these is true? Can someone directly reference the text with doublespeak being used if it was coined by Orwell? 69.166.34.234 (talk) 19:10, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Education against doublespeak

Can this section get some love? It seems there are some strange things happening within, namely claims and quotations without clear attribution.

1. Educating students has been suggested by experts to be one of the ways to counter doublespeak. Educating students in the English language is important to help them identify how doublespeak is being used to mislead and conceal information.

- Who purports this? This sounds like a theory, or a viewpoint, either of which should be attributed. Does doublespeak as a concept apply more to languages more broadly, or is the concept isolated to the English language alone?

It might be helpful to reframe this section if the only examples provided are concerning the English language. Perhaps the concept can be explained as one that is unique to the English language (if that is the case.) I'm concerned about the tone of the sentence sounding like a personal, or uncited theory, rather than an explanation of how people are treating the concept and the value which is attributed to it.

2. Charles Weingartner, one of the founding members of the NCTE committee on Public Doublespeak mentioned: "people do not know enough about the subject (the reality) to recognize that the language being used conceals, distorts, misleads". There is a crucial need for English language teachers to educate and become experts in teaching about linguistic vulnerability.

Is this the author's claim, or that of Weingartner?

3. "Teachers of English should teach our students that words are not things, but verbal tokens or signs of things that should finally be carried back to the things that they stand for to be verified. Students should be taught a healthy skepticism about the potential abuse of language but duly warned about the dangers of an unhealthy cynicism."

It is unclear who is making these statements from the way this section is written. The citation is for an source with two authors: Kehl and Livingston. Is this a quote of something they said, or something Weingartner said? Please provide context for quotations.

4. According to William Lutz: "Only by teaching respect and love for the language can teachers of English instill in students the sense of outrage they should experience when they encounter doublespeak." "Students must first learn to use the language effectively, to understand its beauty and power." "Only by using language well will we come to appreciate the perversion inherent in doublespeak."

Why are these quotes strung together in this manner? Are they random sentences from the same source? There should be some context provided for each quoted sentence

Curdigirl (talk) 09:01, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Untitled IP comment

"Coined in the 1950s in the vein of George Orwell's Newspeak as used in his book Nineteen Eighty-Four. The word doublespeak does not appear in the book, although newspeak, oldspeak, and doublethink do." OK. So you want a citation that something /isn't/ in a book? How about you provide a page number where the word appears in the book? You can find the book online for free on a number of websites, including: http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/ https://www.orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/

Sure I don't have a citation for the coined in the 1950s. I literally copied the sentence from Wiktionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.127.111.92 (talk) 05:53, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Examples may need review

I think some of the examples of Doublespeak should be reviewed for correctness. For example, characterizing "handouts" as doublespeak because payments to the military are not also referred to as handouts is not apropos. When military spending is for useless armaments or political purposes other than conducting warfare, then it is indeed referred to as handouts or "pork". Regular military spending cannot be considered equivalent to entitlement spending because the money is normally spent to buy something, either hardware or service by personnel, whereas entitlement spending does not come with an expectation of getting anything in return, or at least anything of equal value. In other words, military spending is a trade of value, but entitlement spending is a gift, hence the word "handout".

In general, some of the other examples given are either weak or simply wrong for similar reasons. In fact, there is almost an ironic politics to some of the examples. In other words, Chomsky's complaint about the use of the word handouts could almost be considered to be doublespeak itself. Or maybe that was the author's intention? — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Chamberlain (talk • contribs) 10:42, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Criticism of NCTE

The article is not about the National Council of Teachers of English. It shouldn't be used as the soapbox for (contradictory and non-sensical) attacks on third parties. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.139.98 (talk) 06:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)