Talk:Dunstable Swan Jewel

A fact from Dunstable Swan Jewel appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 30 August 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the gold and enamel Dunstable Swan Jewel dates from about 1400 when such livery badges were highly controversial and could be dangerous for the wearer?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2010/August.

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comment[edit]

Looking good Johnbod. I noticed the phrase "otherwise only known from representations in paintings" referring to livery badges. I knew nothing about this subject before reading this but I do remember seeing a "boar" on an alabaster tomb figure of Sir Ralph Fitzherbert. He is clearly shown with this around his neck. I was told that other figures had these but they were vandalised. Is this a livery badge? Of you also say "invariably compared" .... may be "has been compared"? Hope this helps Victuallers (talk) 16:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. It is the fiddly 3D enamelled ones, which can be seen to be enamelled, that are otherwise only known from paintings, though I should add "and inventories". Alabaster etc ones might be plain metal - I can't see anyone attempting to carve the Dunstable jewel in stone. No one get more than a few sentences into talking about the jewel before mentioning the diptych. Johnbod (talk) 18:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Although a point remains. Ralph appears to have had a (livery??) badge given to him by Richard III. This has then been modelled in stone on his tomb - see last picture in article. Do you think this is correct? Should it be called a livery badge in Ralph's article? Victuallers (talk) 14:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, certainly. They are common on tomb effigies. What is "otherwise only known" is the most expensive jewel type in 3D. Ralph's looks rather like the gilt-copper one found at Middleham, mentioned in the article, but might well be in gold, with or without enamel and jewels, you just can't tell. I've added to the article there, & put the pic here. Johnbod (talk) 15:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks JB ... and thanks for making the links in each article Victuallers (talk) 09:02, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

hart v heart[edit]

copied from my talk:

Ok, I approved it. If you're interested, I also remember Helen Castor writing in her The King, the Crown and the Duchy of Lancaster about Richard II's use of livery badges, and contemporary commentators making puns about the king distributing "harts" to his retainers, but loosing the "hearts" of his subjects. It's an interesting passage, I think you might be able to find it on Google Books. Lampman (talk) 02:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - found it in Castor - at least the Introduction, where Richard the Redeless is quoted. I copied, with changes, the political stuff to livery badge, and some to Wilton Diptych, & I might add more there than in the jewel article. I still need to read the main Cherry article on the badge before taking the article further, but I might do an FA at some point. Btw, I left a query at the RichII talk because I've lost the name of Richard's faithful servant, imprisoned by Henry for continuing to weare the badge. A foreigner I think. If you come across it please let me know. We don't have an article on medieval retainers at all, which is a gap - actually I see we have Bastard feudalism, which maybe needs attention. I fact-tagged its conclusion: "Although both Edward IV and Henry VII limited "retaining", bastard feudalism remained the basis of English society until the late sixteenth century" - seems very late to me. Johnbod (talk) 11:02, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll copy the last bit to the talk, for future reference, but I've added some from Castor. Johnbod (talk) 11:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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