Talk:Edgard Varèse

Zappa

Noticed no mention of Frank Zappa and the influence Varese had on his work. Kemkerj 23:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Probably because that has very little to do with Varese, and more with Zappa. (Whom I love to death.)-FeralCats

I seem to recall Zappa's favourite quote of Varese being "The present day composer refuses to die" which he might have quoted as said by Varese and which he certainly altered on one of his very first albums to read "The present day Pachuco refuses to die". Not sure if anyone thinks that this is worth including in the article, and if so, then where? In the trivia section, perhaps? Hi There 02:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Zappa wrote about Varèse in a semi or fairly scholarly fashion. 75.48.16.182 (talk) 20:02, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

pronunciation?

How the hell do you pronounce this guy's name? The Guilty Undertaker 18:50, 27 July 2006

As if written, in English, Edgar Varayza. Or do you need IPA? -- megA 18:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, IPA please. OlYeller 06:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

The biography needs to be cleaned up a bit and put into sections. Right now it's kind of just one big lump of information. I personally volunteer to do this once I get the time, though anyone else willing should feel free to do so. Jesusjonez^Talk 22:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, it's a mess. Nothing pre-1915! he was married to Suzanne Bing. See chronologie (in French), and this biography (in German). If needed, I can translate parts of either upon request. Lupo 14:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I can't read French or German but I'll see what babelfish can do. Jesusjonez^Talk 23:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, the bit

'After being invalided out of the French Army during World War I, he moved to the United States in December 1915.[...]

[edit] Early years in the United States

[...] Later that year...'

needs to be corrected. The 'later that year' does not identify the year it refers to (probably 1917?). Perhaps the article's author could amend that? --Ispy67 (talk) 19:25, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Compositions Mentioned in Section "Early Life"

The section mentions two works, "Rhapsodie romane" and "Bourgogne". Is there any particular reason why they are not listed amongst his works at the end of the article? Also, more generally, he seems not to have been a very prolific composer; was he able, throughout his life, to support himself by his composing and other musical endeavours? Hi There 02:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Varese and Charlie Parker

I found this in the WP Charlie Parker article: At various times, Parker fused jazz with other musical styles, from classical (seeking to study with Edgard Varèse and Stefan Wolpe) to Latin music (recordings with Machito), blazing paths followed later by others. Hopefully I will get around to finding out a little more about this, as it would be an interesting factlet to have in the article, if true. Hi There 09:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Oellette's biography of Varèse contains this: "After the death of Charlie Parker ... the latter's wife came to see Varèse to tell him that her husband had followed Varèse up and down the streets of Greenwich Village for two years without ever daring to speak to him" AllyD 10:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Spelling of Edgar[d]

My understanding is that he was born as Edgard, but initially published under Edgar, and around 1942 decided to resume the original spelling Edgard. Hence, both versions appear in the literature. If these are the correct facts, is there a better cite than the ones I've been able to drag up ([1] [2])? -- JackofOz (talk) 04:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Malcolm MacDonald has a useful footnote about this at the outset of his book (cited in the article as ref. 4) Astronomer in Sound, p. xi. He points out that the French version of the name is 'Edgar', same as English, but Varese's birth-certificate shows 'Edgard' and thinks this may be something to do with his Piedmontaise ancestry - a sort of half-way house to the Italian 'Edgardo'. Cenedi (talk) 11:24, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

External links

I previously deleted an external link to an "Edgard Varese at Pytheas" page which had been added by user 2021music, as I feel that the linked page contains a list of Varese's works, plus various links, plus a banner ad. The user has re-added the link and has also placed a rationale on User talk:2021music which confirms his/her association with Pytheas. I don't want to get into a to-and-fro edit war, so maybe the best thing is for others to look at the link and see if they feel that it adds anything or falls within the scope of Wikipedia:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided in which case it should be deleted again? AllyD (talk) 17:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Link removed. It fails all the What should be linked points and the conflicts of interest..."You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent..." Lame Name (talk) 18:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

External Links

This is the last time I’ll comment on this issue.

Concerning Lame Name’s comments:

How does the Pytheas link FAIL all the "What should be linked" points???

1. Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any.

There is no “official Edgard Varese website”. I do not see how there could ever be one. Varese has been dead for 43 years and cannot sanction an “official” website.

2. An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.

This does not apply to the Wikipedia Edgard Varese webpage.

3. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.

The Pytheas Edgard Varese webpage does contain “neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to … amount of detail … or other reasons.

4. Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.

The Pytheas Edgard Varese webpage DOES contain “meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article”. Where else in the Wikipedia Edgard Varese webpage article can one find 25 links to websites with general information regarding Varese, 32 links to websites with detailed articles regarding Varese and his music, 11 links to online books that have sections devoted to Varese, and 7 links to websites that have streaming audio of music by Varese.

I do agree that I have a conflict of interest regarding the proposed link. The link may secondarily have some promotional effect on the Pytheas website, yet the primary overriding purpose of the proposed link is to make information regarding Edgard Varese and his music MORE accessible.

I will not try to reinstate the link that has been removed, though I do find some of the other “External Links” already in place highly questionable. (i.e. Edgard Varèse at Allmusic??? – adds very little and has overt commercial purposes; BBC.co.uk: Music Profiles: Edgard Varèse – a non-functioning link to the BBC home page; Edgard Varèse Bust, a sculptural tribute to the composer – I fail to see how this link has any relevance to the understating of Edgard Varese, and that it mainly promotes the work of sculptor Michael Keropian).

My one request would be to ask anyone really interested in Edgard Varese and his music to please consider reinstating the deleted link and thus enhance the Wikipedia Edgard Varese article and the understanding of Varese. Thank you for your time and consideration.

2021music 2021music (talk) 14:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

1 - Pytheas is not an official Varèse web site

2 - Pytheas hosts nothing of interest

3 - Any such material could be integrated into the article or used in a separate The Works Of Edgard Varèse article

4 - Wikipedia is not a repository of links

Agreed the other external links could do with some pruning. Lame Name (talk) 15:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm truly sorry you have such strong feelings regarding this issue. The only valid point you make concerns my comment regarding the other external links. No.1 has nothing to do with anything (there could be no official Edgard Varese website); No. 2 is your strong opinion, but only YOUR opinion; No. 3 may be correct, and at the time that all the information linked to at the Pytheas Edgard Varese page is integrated into the article or other related articles I would gladly have the link removed - at this point in time the information is NOT integrated into the article and therefore is valid information related to the article; No. 4 is true, but the PYTHEAS EDGARD VARESE PAGE is the repository of links, not the Pytheas link at the Edgard Varese Wikipedia page. As stated under [3] "Links to be considered" ...Long lists of links are not appropriate: "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links. IF YOU FIND A LONG LIST OF LINKS IN AN ARTICLE, YOU CAN TAG THE "EXTERNAL LINKS" SECTION with the External links template. WHERE EDITORS HAVE NOT REACHED CONSENSUS ON AN APPROPRIATE LIST OF LINKS, A LINK TO A WELL_CHOSEN WEB DIRECTORY CATEGORY COULD BE USED UNTIL SUCH A CONSENSUS CAN BE REACHED. The Open Directory Project is often a neutral candidate, and may be added using the dmoz template."

I still have not heard any reason why the link would DETRACK from the Edgard Varese Wikipedia article, and an fuller understanding of Edgard Varese and his music.

2021music2021music (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The crucial purpose is to develop Wikipedia as a source of solid, well-sourced and reliable information in itself (hence not link-farming, etc.). One of the guidance articles suggests that a valid External Link is one which would provide extra value if and when the WP article was already a Good Article in itself. That is a good point to help evaluate when one is adding a link - aside from the WP:COI point about adding one's own link. 2021music, why not start making substantive edits to the actual articles on WP, on Varèse and on other subjects, rather than just seeking to add links to your Pytheas pages? Nobody is suggesting the Varèse page is perfect, it can benefit from knowledgeable improvements for everyone's benefit. AllyD (talk) 17:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I would have replaced it with the DMOZ link but that has the same broken links listed. What does Pytheas host that is of interest here? Would the links to amazon.com etc. found under other composers eventually find their way onto your Varèse page? Lame Name (talk) 19:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

These links, available on Pytheas, are of primary interest to those exploring Edgard Varese: Edgard Varese - Father of Electronic Music Isabelle Chapuis Starr on Varese Chou Wen-chung and the Varese Story (by Stanley Fefferman, showtimemagazine.ca) Edgard Varese: Complete Works (by Bob Halliday, Mappi.mundi Magazine) Edgard Varese @ Musem Tinguely (also press release) On Ameriques (1922) (by Chou Wen-chung) Varese (by Grant Chu Covell, La Folia) Composers Who Broke Their Reins (Bernard Holland, The New York Times) No Apolgy (Time Magazine) Struggles of an Electronic Pioneer (by Bayan Northcott, The Independent @ bnet) Edgard Varese: Composer Portrait (by John Hammel, Bella Cantare) Varese: Ameriques (@ LA Philharmonic) A Bomb to Blow Up Music World (by David Stevens, International Herarld Tribune) Boulez Conducts Varese (review by Daniel Felsenfeld, Andante.com) Masterpieces of 20th Century Multi-channel Tape: Varese Engineer's Son (Time Magazine) Poem electronique by Varese: Authenticity, Reproduction and Mediatization (by Tim Stephenson, Intellect) Edgard Varese: Offrandes (1921) (time4time) Edgard Varese @ A42 On Hyperprism (1923) (@ Renewable Music) Varese's Hyperprism (by Christopher Meister) Frank Zappa on Edgard Varese (by John Diliberto and Kimberly Haas, Downbeat Magazine) Sound Space and Edgard Varese's Poeme electronique (by Densil Cabrera/Masters Thesis) Edgard Varese and the New Music of America (by Dane Rudhyar, Rudhyar Archival Project) Varese, Image, Science (by Alain Montesse) [translated by google from the Frech original] Pierre Boulez on Edgard Varese: "Octandre", performance and analysis (Creative Arts Television) On Octandre (1923) (by Chou Wen-chung) The Composer's Eye (State University of New York at Buffalo Exhibition) Composer Portraits: Edgard Varese (Darcy James Argue's Secret Society) Back to the Future, Unmade: Glittering, Playful Varese (Anne Midgette, The New York Times) Edgard Varese: Collection of Scores and Other Materials (Stanford University Libraries)

These links are of general interest regarding Varese: Varese @ 20th Century Arts and Humanities (Dr. Michael Delahoyde, Washington State University) Varese @ allmusic Varese @ aworks Varese @ Biographybase Varese @ Boston Modern Orchestra Project Varese @ Brain-Juice Varese @ Center for New Music & Audio Technologies, University of California at Berkeley Varese @ Centrebombe Varese @ dbpedia Varese @ edgard-varese.com (french website) Varese @ Electro-acoustic Music Varese @ enotes [Varese's name misspelled as "Vareoe"] Varese @ IRCAM (translated by google from the French original) Varese @ Kunstbus (translated by google from the Dutch original) Varese @ Musical Time.com Varese @ My Space Music 1 & 2 Varese @ Sapientiam Autem Non Vincit Malitia (translated by google from the Portuguese original) Varese @ Theremin.info Varese @ Theremin Vox Bio and Links Varese @ Virginia Tech Multimedia Music Dictionary Composers Biographies Varese @ Zappa Wiki Jawaka

Streaming Audio Varese @ Classical Masterpieces Varese @ Connexions: Listening Gallery Varese @ UBUWEB Varese @ USC Music of the 20th Century

Links to Amazon.com and other commercial sites appear only at the request of the composer. For example, the recordings and links listed on Karen Amrhein's Pytheas page were suggested by the composer after contacting her regarding her Pytheas page and what information she would like added. Recordings of Varese's music are available at so many commercial sites that there would never be a need to link, and therefore promote, their commercial interests. The Pytheas links to last.fm and Rhapsody are made because some of Varese's music is available at these site FOR FREE.

2021music 2021music (talk) 23:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Sheesh. To make an absurdly long story short, the Pytheas link should not be reinstated. SethTisue (talk) 13:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class; more information needs to be given about Varese's relationship with his wife (where and when they met and married, at a minimum), and with Theremin (when and where they met, the nature of their collaboration). My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 21:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Nocturnal unfinished?

Wasn't "Nocturnal" unfinished, too, and completed posthumously? -- megA (talk) 15:30, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed so, and completed by Chou Wen-chung I believe. It was much closer to completion than the projects listed in the "Unfinished projects" section though. --Deskford (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I think there is a freely available recording of this version somewhere with an extensive comment which mentions this... ah, here it is... Yes, Chou Wen-chung it was. Interesting read, seems there was still some major "overhaul" done for this performance version. -- megA (talk) 15:43, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

D'Indy - the famous acoustician?

Varese did not study acoustics with D'Indy. If anything, he would have studied traditional academic music subjects like counterpoint and harmony. Varèse studied music with D'Indy - not sound. The preoccupation with sound was a result of Varèse's own philosophy and outlook. It's not overstepping the mark to say that his music is a complete reaction to most, if not all of what was taught in conservatoires at the time (and still to this day, in fact!) Knucmo2 (talk) 00:11, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I've just looked at my Grove Dictionary. It says: "He left home for Paris in 1903 and the next year entered the Schola Cantorum, where his teachers were Roussel (composition, counterpoint and fugue), Bordes (pre-classical music), and d'Indy (conducting). Bordes had a decisive influence in turning his attention to early music (always the favoured repertory for the choral groups which he directed from time to time), but Varèse was unable to put up with d'Indy's paternalism, and in 1905 he left the Schola to enrol in Charles-Marie Widor's composition class at the Conservatoire". Knucmo2 (talk) 00:17, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Excellent point. It was certainly misleading, even if one could say that music falls under the broad category of "sound"! I have changed it, always subject to reversion in the unlikely case that the cited source claims otherwise.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:19, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Good work Jerome. Knucmo2 (talk) 23:56, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Edgard Varèse/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Edgard Varèse: 2009-02-13== This is an assessment of article Edgard Varèse by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? when did he marry? meet Theremin? ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? when did he marry? meet Theremin? ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? ok ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) One image; may have copyright issues; could use more images. No sound. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references; some inline citations. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) ok. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Images and media have copyright/fair-use issues (WP:IUP or more specific GA/FA criteria) ===Summary=== This is a decent B-class biography. It suffers from a few nagging factual gaps. First, his wife is mentioned, but only well after they are apparently married; we do not learn when the met or married. He is also "devastated" by Theremin's departure for Russia; again, we do not learn when and where they met, or the nature of their collaboration, whose end so devastated Varese. I note that the image provided is of undocumented date (even in the source from which it came). While it is plausible that the image is old enough to be PD, a formal review will question its provenance. A formal review will also require more inline citations. Article is B-class. Magic♪piano 21:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 21:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:07, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

"Institute Technique" is neither Italian nor French; what is meant?

The article contains the sentence:

"While living with his father, an engineer, Varèse was pushed to further his scientific understanding at the Institute Technique, a high school in Italy that specialized in teaching mathematics and science."

While the context suggests by that time Varèse lived in Italy, "Institute" is neither an Italian nor a French word, and "Technique" is not an Italian word, but is a valid French word.

Can anyone confirm that the "Istituto tecnico" [4] is what is meant here?Redav (talk) 16:11, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

• Neither the Fernand Ouellette biography nor Paul Griffiths' Grove article is specific about which institution. However the Edgard_Varèse#Early_life section seems more specific; the Edgard_Varèse#Background_in_science section seems to loop back, both more vague and more detailed than Edgard_Varèse#Early_life - the article may read better and be more concise if it is merged there? AllyD (talk) 18:22, 20 March 2021 (UTC)