Talk:Egyptian Arabic/Archive 5

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transcription

I feel uncomfortable writing the sound /j/ as j rather than y. In fact, I have about 15 different texts in my house on various varieties of Arabic, including 3 textbooks on Egyptian Arabic and 3 other books that discuss EA in fair depth, and every single one uses y. Basically, not one of them transcribes spoken Arabic using strict IPA. The systems used for transcription differ somewhat in their writing of some of the consonants, and also in the EA epenthetic vowel, but they're quite consistent in writing the EA short vowels as a i u (sometimes with an additional vowel ɑ), and in using y. Also, not one writes the emphatic consonants as e.g. tˤ dˤ; most common is ṭ ḍ, although some use ʈ ɖ or the like. The non-use of IPA even occurs in a book like The Semitic Languages (Robert Hetzron, ed.), where the chapter "Arabic Dialects and Maltese" by Alan S. Kaye and Judith Rosenhouse uses standard IPA when needed for clarity but still prefers to write e.g. Cairene huwwa hiyya ṛaaṣ ḍarabúu ḥa’’úku(m) ("he she head they-hit-him your-(pl.)-right").

One of the main reasons for this is that the use of y j for /j dʒ/ is quite standard in the transcription of Classical Arabic. The fact that j surfaces as g in Egyptian doesn't really change this, as most descriptions of Egyptian and other spoken varieties are explicitly set up with the comparison to Classical Arabic in mind.

Given that this is the standard use in the reliable sources, I'd suggest we do the same. One way to do this would be to dispense with the IPA-based phonemic notation I've been using, and instead use a phonemic transcription that is consistent with the usual transcriptions in the standard sources. Along with this, an IPA-based phonetic notation would be included when necessary for clarity, similar to the current use of phonemic vs. phonetic.

Examples of transcription:

  • fi yóom min záat ilʕayyáam ɡúꜧa-txáaniq wayya-mráatu fa ʈaraɖítu milbéet, fa xáraɡ zaƸláan wi kan ɡaƸáan ɡíddan wi-mfállis. fa Ƹámal ʃaꜧꜧáat wi fíɖil yilíffĭ min ʃáariƸ li ʃáariƸ wi min ꜧáara-l ꜧáara-w min béet li béet, yíʃꜧat wi-yqúul ‘ꜧásana lilláah, míin yiʃaꜧꜧátni qírʃĭ walla lúqmit Ƹéeʃ ʕarúddĭ bíiha ɡúƸti? min yoméen ma káltĭʃ wi-mráati ʈarɖáani milbéet.’ ... (Egyptian Colloquial Arabic, p. 152)
  • ʕinnɑhɑrdɑ-ggumƸa, yaƸni mafiiʃ dirɑɑsa-lꜧamdu l-illaah. magdi-w Ƹaadil wi layla-tʕablu-ʂʂubꜧe f-innaadi, wi Ƹaamu-f ꜧammaam-issibaaꜧa, Ƹaʃaan-iddinya kaanit ꜧɑrre-ʃwayya. ʕiɖɖuhre ʈɑlɑbu ɣada, w-itɣaddu sawa. baƸd-ilɣada, magdi saʕal Ƹaadil wi layla: ... (Spoken Arabic of Cairo, p. 102)
  • (bitiʕmil eeh dilwaʔti ?) bašṛab fingaal ʔahwa, wibaʕdeen ɦaṭlub ṣaɦbi haani fittilifoon . wiɦaninzil ilbalad winudxul sinima mitru , fiiha film faṛansaawi kuwayyis . wibaʕdeen ɦargaʕ ilbeet wadris . bukṛa ʕandi mtiɦaan faṛansaawi . (An Introduction to Egyptian Arabic, p. 106); iddars I sahl I ʔawi (ibid. p. 52); ahó ṭṭaalib innabiih (p. 49); miš ṣuɣayyaṛ (p. 53); mayya (p. 341)
  • fa-ruḥna ’ana w-gōzi iḍ-ḍuhri ta’rīban is-sā‘a talāta, wi-sta’bilūna ba’a sti’bal gamīl giddan, bi-t-tirḥāb ba’a wi-’ahlan wi-sahlan wi-’anistūna wi-šaṛṛaftūna wi-l-bēt nawwaṛ (The Arabic Language, p. 163; note also "... lamma rgi‘na kunna ma‘zumīn ‘ala l-ġada, ṛābi‘ yōm il-‘īd, ‘andi ẖalti" with an underscore under an h to indicate /x/)
  • yimkin ḥa-yḥibbĭ yiigi yšuufna; yiẓhar kaan yi‘uuz yiruuḥ yaakul; waaḥid ‘andína insara’ minnu gamuusa; simi‘t innĭ ‘ali (ḥa)yiwṣal bukra; ’inta mit’akkid innak muš ‘awzu(h)?; biti‘mil eeh?; ma byištaɣaluuš leeh?; xalla l-ḥayyĭ-da farḥaan; etc. ("Arabic Dialects and Maltese" in The Semitic Languages, pp. 263-311)
  • hiyya daxalit, daxalit li-ḥadd ‘and iṭ-ṭabla miš ‘arfa t‘addi, fa-’a‘da tixabbaṭ fi ṭablit widni ‘ašān ti‘addi tikammil ba’a l-mišwār bita‘ha (The Syntax of Spoken Arabic, p. 76); wuzara kutār kutār ‘amalt-ilhum šuġl ... ištaġalt ma‘ nās kutār fi-l-balad (ibid. p. 65)

Note about "Egyptian Colloquial Arabic":

  • The vocabulary has * by words "containing r, to indicate where necessary that the vowel a preceding or following the consonant must be of ‘back’ quality"
  • The vocabulary has † by words "containing q, to indicate that the consonant is usually pronounced by educated speakers as in ‘Classical’ Arabic"
  • The word máyya in the vocabulary has a footnote by it indicating "‘back’ a in first syllable"
  • A note at the beginning (p. viii): "This book was written over twenty years ago and one's thinking has naturally changed in some respects over this period. These are not, however, sufficiently great to merit the large increase in cost that incorporating them in the reprint would entail. It might be said, however, in relation to the transcription, that it would probably be improved by not using q with the value of the glottal stop and by introducing a distinction between front and back open vowels a and ɑ. This would enable, for instance, a transcribed difference of vowel, to be made between, say, raagiƸ ‘returning’ and rɑɑgil ‘man’, while ʕinnaharɖa ‘today’ could be written more realistically as ʕinnɑhɑrdɑ. Such changes, however, would in any case have been of only minor importance."

Suggestions:

  • Use y for /j/.
  • Use ḥ ḍ ṭ ṣ ẓ ṛ, since this is what the strong majority of sources use.
  • For long vowels, the most common usage is either aa ii uu or ā ī ū, although a: i: u: sometimes appear. The advantage of aa ii uu is that indicating stress is easier: Stress is almost universally indicated with an acute accent, and áa íi úu is more likely to be displayed correctly than ā́ ī́ ū́.
  • Both š and ʃ are in use, and either would work.
  • Use of ‘ ’ is perhaps more standard than ʕ ʔ, but I'd suggest the latter because it's easier to read and to distinguish the two.

There is no consistency in indicating the epenthetic vowel. Examples:

  • An Introduction to Egyptian Colloquial Arabic (T.F. Mitchell): il bintĭ di
  • An Introduction to Egyptian Arabic (Ernest T. Abdel-Massih): il bint I di (but epenthetic vowel omitted from unit five)
  • Spoken Arabic of Cairo (Maurice B. Salib): il binte di
  • The Semitic Languages (Robert Hetzron, ed.), chapter "Arabic Dialects and Maltese" (Alan S. Kaye and Judith Rosenhouse), p. 279: il-bint-ĭ-di
  • The Arabic Language (Kees Versteegh): il binti di
  • The Syntax of Spoken Arabic (Kristen E. Brustad): il bint di (omitted; this is a book on syntax, so transcription accuracy is not paramount and is sometimes ambiguous)

I'd suggest il bint-ĭ di. This follows the majority in using some variant of i, but avoids the problem with capital I, which is that in a sans-serif font (e.g. as is the default in the browser I use, Firefox on Mac OS X), it looks identical to lowercase l.

Tentative conclusion:

  • Use y ḥ ḍ ṭ ṣ ẓ ṛ ḷ aa ii uu áa íi úu and IPA everywhere else (ʃ ʔ ʕ ɣ ʒ), although certainly not averse to using š ž, nor to using a: i: u: or aː iː uː
  • Use ĭ for the epenthetic vowel
  • Use hyphens to indicate clitics and cases of linking/resyllabification: Hence ʃáaf-u "he saw it"; ʃáafu "they saw"; ʃafúu "they saw it"; ʔiddi-háa-li "give it (fem.) to me"; ʔiddet-ú-lha "I gave it (masc.) to her"; ʔiddetú-lha "you (pl.) gave to her"; ma-ʔṛa-ha-lhúm-ʃ "I do not read it (fem.) to them".
  • Only use ɑ in cases where there is no ḍ ṭ ṣ ẓ ṛ ḷ in a word, e.g. bɑɑbɑ mɑyyɑ; alternatively, indicate ṛ but not ḷ, hence lɑmbɑ lukɑndɑ rather than ḷamba ḷukanda.

The idea of all this is that the primary purpose of the phonemic transcription is to clarify the structure of the language rather than to focus on the phonetic detail.

Example:

fi yóom min záat il-ʔayyáam ɡúḥa-txáaniʔ wayya-mṛáat-u fa ṭaṛaḍít-u mi-l-béet. fa xáṛaɡ zaʕláan wi kan ɡaʕáan ɡíddan wi-mfállis. fa ʕámal ʃaḥḥáat wi fíḍil yilíff-ĭ min ʃáariʕ li ʃáariʕ wi min ḥáaṛa-l ḥáaṛa-w min béet li béet, yíʃḥat wi-yʔúul ‘ḥásana li-lláah, míin yiʃaḥḥát-ni ʔírʃ-ĭ walla lúʔmit ʕéeʃ ʔaṛúdd-ĭ bíi-ha ɡúʕt-i? min yoméen ma kált-ĭ-ʃ wi-mṛáat-i ṭaṛḍáa-ni mi-l-béet. Benwing (talk) 07:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh... Looks like some books use strange symbols when they could borrow missing letters of basic Latin from IPA. For me, as long as it's not an IPA transcription / / or [ ], then, it's OK that some non-standard symbols be used. Although I don't edit those transcriptions, I may give suggestions. Sounds such as [ħ] already have their IPA symbol with both small and capital letters (ħĦ), if so, why not use these forms, when possible? Note that we don't use [zæːt] in Egyptian Arabic as that example. It would be [fe ˈjoːm men el ʔæjˈjæːm] or [fe ˈjoːm mel ʔæjˈjæːm]. We have [bezˈzæːt] especially. [zæːt] is an Arabic loanword from /ðaːt/, meaning self, but it's not related to the context of the text example. ɡúʕt-i is [ˈɡuːʕi]. ɡúʕt [ɡoʕt] is the past tense of hungry (I was hungry), which also has other ways to express it.
For the stress, a way less complicated way to indicate it on long vowels is by using macrons on these vowels, because automatically, in Egyptian Arabic, a vowel can't be long except if its syllable was stressed. But, in case ɑ wanted to be used, then the macron diacritic might be ɑ̄ (ɑ+macron diacritic) or use alpha-macron ᾱ.
For the I-l problem, use Droid Sans, Tahoma or Segoe UI as your default sans-serif font. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
OK, the example is taken directly from the book. It may represent archaic usage, as this book is the one that compares ma katabuuʃ "they did not write, he did not write it" with ma katabuhʃ "they did not write it". The vocabulary has zaat defined as "self" with the example huwwa géh bi záatu(h) "he came by himself", as well as fi yóom min záat ilʔayyáam "once upon a time", also given as fi yóom milʔayyáam or fi yóom min dóol. The vocabulary also gives gúuʕa "hunger" (but no gúuʕ). The book is dated 1956 but presumably the fieldwork for it was done earlier, probably with an older informant born in the 19th century.
Use of ħĦ seems a good idea.
Question: When does short i have the sound /i/? What sound do the short vowels e i have in maddiniiʃ "don't give me!", ʃiluu "take it away! (pl.)", ʃilhum "take them away!", ʔiddetihaali "you (fem.) gave it (fem.) to me", fi kutub "in books", fi-ktaab "in a book", fi faṛanṣaa "in France", firaan "mice", betha "her house" ...? Benwing (talk) 23:07, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Wow, so that book must have used extremely archaic expressions that I'm not aware they existed before :D  If you told an Egyptian gúuʕa he would correct it for you as gúuʕ (or as I would prefer to write it gūʕ). So, is this the same case that diglossic speakers have their native language evolve so rapidly? According to your transcription, they are correct, with the exception of one word maddiniiʃ → matidiniiʃ; maddaniiʃ [he] didn't give me. The short /i/ is [i] always when it's at the end of a word, such as [ˈenti] you(feminine); in the possessive [-i], example: my dish [ˈtˤɑbɑʔi] ([ˈtˤɑbɑʔ]+[-i]); ʃiluu [ʃeˈluː~ʃe̝ˈluː] ([ʃiːl]+[uː(h)]); ʃilhum [ˈʃelhom] ([ʃiːl]+[hom]); ʔiddetihaali the initial glottal stop is optional [eddetiˈhæːli] or [eddeteˈhæːli] ([edˈdeːt-i]+[hæ]+[li]); fi kutub [fe ˈkotob] ([fe] can also be [fi], but not as widespread, but when joined it's always [fe-] as in [felˈʔæwwæl] at first); fi-ktaab [fekˈtæːb] (or [fe kˈtæːb]); firaan [feˈræːn]; betha [ˈbethæ] ([beːt]+[hæ]); fi faṛanṣaa [fe fɑˈrˤɑnsɑ], the emphasis may or may not assimilate other consonants which have pharyngealized counterparts, for example, the name Peter can be pronounced [ˈbiːtɑrˤ, ˈbiːtˤɑrˤ, ˈpiːter, ˈpiːtɑrˤ], the last 2 pronunciations are mostly by more educated speakers. The back vowel [ɑ] tends to assimilate Egyptianized words that have consonants which have pharyngealized counterparts. Some Egyptians don't have any pharyngealized consonants, or lack some, mostly /sˤ/; /dˤ, q/ are always lost, mostly even in Literary Arabic speech. Whichever pharyngealized consonant is lost, if it had [ɑ], the [ɑ] is always retained. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 00:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know who wrote this

I don't know who wrote this but it's biased and full of lies

Please rewrite it there is no language as Egyptian Arabic ,it's a little ugly accents are not even similar to each other to call it a language. it's just like any other accent ,Saudi Arabic or Lebanese Arabic

I'm Egyptian and what i did read was full of lies. thanks.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.129.30.91 (talk) 17:31, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


The article is indeed complete nonsense. The title should at least be changed to "Egyptian Colloquial Arabic", or "Egyptian Arabic Dialect".--173.32.132.6 (talk) 19:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Original Research

Most of the article simply based on original research as far as I can see. Starting from the Phonology section no adequate sources are provided (except for the Consonants which is well referenced by Janet Watson's book). I'm afraid this article will have the same fate of North Syriac Arabic.--Rafy talk 12:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Scratch that... Apparently the article merely needs references.--Rafy talk

Grammar page?

I wonder why isnt there a grammar page for the language specially seeing the great interest in it considering the length of the article. I hope there is a grammer page that would clear things up and at the same time, not crowd the article here. --MasriDefend (talk) 23:02, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

egyptian arabic?

I will give the editors of "Egyptian Arabic" one month to explain what "Egyptian arabic" is and use reliable sources to proof it, then I will start by first editing the name of the article and then use more verified content.

Wikipedia should be based on scientific facts built upon reliable and verified sources. Not wishful thinkings or legends used within minorities of diffrent religions and ethnicities. The arabic language is one language, then there is diffrent accents. Also the constitution of respective country should be put in consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamah12aa (talk • contribs) 21:29, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not a language

To make it easier for you to understand, when an Irish person speaks English, he isn't creating a new language, he is speaking in English in a different accent

This is the same for Egyptian people, they speak Arabic with their own Accent.
This article is full of incorrect information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.49.92.64 (talk) 10:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

plurar suffixs

I am very surprised for not mentioning a very common and used plural suffix "-at" for things and "-een" for human and "-ean" for two things. ex: sittat, mudarseen(teachers(fem and male)), mudarsean(two teachers (fem and male)). Is there something I am not aware of, arent they for plural too? --MasriDefend (talk) 01:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Politicization

Currently the article is repeatedly attacked by Uishaki who repeatedly changes scientific terms into politicized imprecise terms as the primary namings. [1] [2] [3]. See also WP:Edit-war, dialect, language, a language is a dialect with an army and navy, varieties of Arabic. I don't think Wikipedia should be a place where I have to explain what are the differences between a dialect and a language and when to use each. Currently, the article is precise and factual; each naming is cited at least in one source. The section Namings has all the names for Egyptian Arabic. Censoring the namings for "political reasons" is meaningless. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 17:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

demonstrative adjectives

The normal position for these in Coptic is before the noun. Pamour (talk) 21:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Move grammar section?

Hi, this article is very interesting, but I do have something to say about the grammar section. First, it is very long and completely dominates the article. Second (and more importantly), it is a little esoteric and probably completely incomprehensible to those unfamiliar with Arabic. Couldn't we cut out the grammar section and move it to a new page called Egyptian Arabic grammar? We can work out the information there and provide proper explanation, while we keep a less detailed section on EA grammar in this article. Steinbach (talk) 10:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

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Single language?

The persistent claims that the wildly different varieties of Arabic comprise a single language seem politically based. To say that the differences between standard Arabic and Egyptian Arabic are merely a matter of "accent" strains credulity. Take the simple expression "I didn't give it to them yesterday":

Arabic - lam a`Tiha lahum ams (لم أعطها لهم أمس)

Egyptian - ma-ddet-ha-l-hum-sh imbaariH (ما اديتهالهمش امبارح)

71.175.177.162 (talk) 18:05, 10 March 2014 (UTC)Mr.Slade

What about ما أدَّيتُها لهم البارحة (ma a'ddaituha lahum al-bariha)!? it's standard Arabic and it's exactly the same expression you gave in egyptian, with the exception of just two letters.--Krzys kurd (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but that sentence is not Masri. It is standard Arabic. That's the point. Mr.Slade (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Egyptian Arabic has a very rich vocabulary and of course it's different than Classical Arabic, it has thousands of local ancient and modern Egyptian words, a Coptic based grammar and a totally different way of pronunciation. The only thing that makes Egyptian Arabic understandable among many Arabic-speaking countries is that it's massively widespread thanks to Egyptian movie industry and songs, that's why Masry words like Kalbouz, Safroot, Ah'eeh, Embou, Bes Bes, Toz, Tatta, Zambalek, Nona, Balboos, Kekh, Endegha, Ouz3a, Halfoot, Toot, Yad, Wad, Edeeni, Kokha, Rokhi, Karkar, Bah, Werwer, Bekh, Wahawi ..etc can be understandable for those Arabic-speaking countries while they are not Arabic at all. Not to mention the endless list of modern Masry words and phrases like Fashkh, Ta7n, Tahyees, Antakha, Estabeena, Tarta2, Tennek ,,,,and so on.

Egyptian Premier League (talk) 07:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

The stated origin & identity of the language is unsupportable

I'm sure this may have come up in discussions here before, but in case this happened only a long time ago, or never, I want to say that the only historical and linguistic studies done on the Egyptian language point to coptic rather than Arabic as the original source. Though the vocabulary is predominantly Arabic, everything else isn't. The same how English is strongly influenced by French vocabulary but isn't itself french, nor even romance (french language family). Defining the egyptian as Arabic in WP should at least be balanced with information of how other theories exist regarding its identity. But it is a very problematic POV to suffice with stating that it developed from Quranic Arabic as if this is a fact, especially given that there isn't any evidence to support this remote possibility, While evidence of the other theory actually abound! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.224.84.190 (talk) 06:56, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Written form

Hi,

In the introduction one can read that "While it is primarily a spoken language, the written form is used in novels, plays and poems (vernacular literature), as well as in comics, advertising, some newspapers and transcriptions of popular songs."

However, I cannot find any source in the article regarding the use of Egyptian Arabic in comics, advertising, some newspapers and transcriptions of popular songs. Should this part be removed from the initial summary? Or could sources be added to the article?

Best,

A455bcd9 (talk) 11:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Accented vowels without any previous definition

The Pronoun section suddenly starts to use accented vowels (á & é) in words such as - ʔább & béet. Without any prior usage or definition of these characters. A correspondence table to the IPA indicating what these characters stand for will help with clarity of the article Nausher — Preceding undated comment added 18:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

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