Talk:Ein as-Sahla

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Requested move 25 May 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Bolter makes a good argument, back by reliable sources, and it has not been rebutted. Jenks24 (talk) 11:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Ein as-Sahala → Ein as-Sahla – The common name used by all English sources in the article as well as sources that will be in the article – Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:33, 25 May 2016 (UTC) --Relisted.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:27, 3 June 2016 (UTC) -- Relisting (2nd). Anarchyte (work | talk) 06:11, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Bolter21 and Dicklyon: This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 03:40, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not seeing the sources to confirm this. An RM discussion with evidence would be in order. Dicklyon (talk) 02:18, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I looked online. the sources are not strong enough to support it. — Iridona 04:25, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Dicklyon: Just to point out, the move only regard the removal of the a after the h in sahala as there are many variants of the name since it is transliterated from Arabic. (Sometimes the second word is el/al and sometimes it's as, those are different due to accents). The official name found in the census data of Israel (no.657 in Column A. English name apears on column C) is Ein As-Sahle, These transliterations of the CBS are hardly used by Wikipedia articles because they are usually bad but this one corresponds with the majority of the sources that doesn't include an aditional a after the h in Sahala.
The Arabic way to write 'sahla' is "سهله" and although there are no punctuation marks, we (or at least those who know Arabic alphabet) can see that after the letter for h sound (the one that looks like the number '8') there is no letter for a (Like the first letter - ا).
The reason why I don't ask to change the Ein to Ayn or the as to al/el is because those are just two words in Arabic that used in countless names of localities. The first meaning "spring" and the second meaning "[of] the" and there are many ways of writing them so there is no "correct" way, but 'Sahla' is not a common word to be transliterated from Arabic. It means "easy" or "plain" so here it does matter to see what sources are saying which I found no source to include an 'a' after the 'h' while all others don't.
The meaning of the name of course is "Spring of the Plain" [9].
Even websites that doesn't concern the village at all transliterate سهلة to sahla, like this website for "easy recipes", if you look on the adress, it says "sahla".
So in conclusion, the word Sahala should be changed to Sahla while the other two words can stay as they are.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:53, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Dicklyon: Well?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:51, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Guerin[edit]

User:Bolter21 I strongly disagree with this edit of yours. If Guerin said it had 1800 people, then that was what he said. And a LOTS of Arab/Palestinian villages were completely decimated in 1948, lots and lots were much larger before 1948, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:06, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Bolter21:....that is, if it is *this* Ein as-Sahala Guerin is talking about? I´don´t think so, the same section is used in Silat ad-Dhahr!  :) Huldra (talk) 23:15, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, it is es-Sahla with no doubt. The Arab name is written in the same way and there are descriptions about a large spring (which will be cited in an edit waiting to be born right now).
Second of all, considering the fact Ein as-Sahla was not conquered by the IDF but was just transferred from Jordan, I still can't belive the village population reached 1,800 in 30~ years and reduced to 200 until 1961 (according to census data not yet in the article). I couldn't find the village in the Mandate's censuses either and in maps it apeard to be either in Barta'a or Ar'ara and both had a population of less than 1,000 in 1922.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now when I look at it, the Arab name is not the same, but still both of it and the UmmElFahemArchive talk about a large spring of water that suited the villagers. Also, es-Sahala is situated on a hill which is a defining detail..--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:30, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I will recheck that (walk in Guerin´s footstep, so to speak) (but recall that many Arab villages have similar names, and the Guerin looks like the spelling is the same in the first part (Silat) of Silat ad-Dhahr. I will come back to this, when I´m sure. The *only* way to be 100% sure is to "rewalk" his steps. That will take some time. And don´t worry if you have gotten it wrong, even Israel Finkelstein ..and SWP got some of the Guerin locations wrong...Huldra (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, even without "re-walking", I´m almost 100% certain that it is not "this" Ein as-Sahala: Look at the SWP 8 map: the "Ain es Saleh" is tiny! I cannot find it in Conder and Kitchener, but, see Basma: it is noted in Palmer, Huldra (talk) 23:49, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know.. the descriptions are so simmilar. Situated on a hill, with a large spring in the middle.. I guess it's not likely enough that this is Ein as-Sahla. Generally, Gurein doesn't provide much information that the UEFA source doesn't, although it would indeed be a nice addition. But I have another source talking about the history of the village so I guess it's not something to worry about too much.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:53, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK, it is definitely not this place, Guerin travels: Ijnisinya —> Nisf Jubeil —> Beit Imrin —> Kh. Kusein —> Ramin, Tulkarm —> Beit Lid —> Saffarin —> Shufa, Tulkarm —> Kafr al-Labad —> Anabta —> Kafr Rumman —> Bizzariya —> Silat ad-Dhahr —> Burqa, Nablus —> Al-Attara —> Rama, Jenin? —> Kafr Ra’i —> Fandaqumiya —> Ajjah —> Anzah —> Kh. En-Nekail —> Zawiya, Jenin —> Arraba, Jenin —> Dothan (ancient city), Huldra (talk) 23:58, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. Poor Gurein, seems like a very nice village. Anyway I couldn't find anymore information on the internet about Ein el-Sahla. I am currently trying to figure out the E-mail adress of an Israeli antropologist from Ar'ara who created the article in Hebrew back in 2007 but beyond that I think I"ve reached the limit of the information I can find (Unless I"ll go into supermode and start translating Arabic). So if you have a source that can bring some more information it"ll be great cause I can't.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:20, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:Bolter21: No, I don´t really have any more info. And most of what is in the "Biblio"-section should probably be removed, as it is not used. However, even then, this article fulfils my DYK-test, so you really should nominate it! Huldra (talk) 20:07, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Did you know that Ein es-Sahala was established as a daughter village of Barta'a in the 19th century but due to increase in population and a martial law in Israel's first year it slowly became an independent village?"--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:17, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that did not sound ...too accurate for me. I would rather have it shorter...."Did you know that Ein es-Sahala was established as a daughter village of Barta'a in the 19th century?" Or: "Did you know that Ein es-Sahala got its first mosque, named Abu Bakr Al-sidik, in 1973?" Huldra (talk) 20:30, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Is DYK apply to recently expanded articles? Cause if so, maybe we should wait until I"ll finally expand the information about Barta'a (which have an overwhelming amount of sources) and then take the first you offered and use it for both villages? (So the readers will also have more info about Barta'a?) And yes, I barely understand DYK.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:42, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I barely understand DYK myself! But one thing is very important, and that is nominating them inside a certain time frame, I believe it is 7 days from start of expansion/start of article, Huldra (talk) 20:55, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I started expanding the article on the 26th and today is the 29th (I woke up to the 29th but now it's already the 30th) and I can't really work on it on it until the June 2nd, so I guess we shouldn't wait. But I think that the fact Ein es-Sahala started as a daughter village is an interesting fact, cause it also make people know that there's such thing as daughter islands. (That's at least how my brain works).--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:05, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I agree, it is the most interesting fact. Unfortunately, it is not that easy to see from the English sources, while the mosque-hook is easy to verify (and that is something reviewers on DYK take seriously: that the "hook" is verifiable. It is, however, possible to suggest 2 hooks (or even more), your first suggestion, your second suggestion, etc. Huldra (talk) 21:10, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I found the daughter thing in an English source here.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:32, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, great! I would just suggest you write p. 12 ....that is, from .co.il-->.com., as co.il makes it sometimes difficult for those outside Israel to see the source, Huldra (talk) 21:49, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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