Talk:Eleanor Roosevelt/GA1

GA Review[edit]

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Delldot (talk · contribs) 02:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article has had two previous GA reviews: February 14, 2007 and November 16, 2007.

This is a great article, very close to GA status already. I might have just gone ahead and promoted it but I figured I would give my thoughts below and see what you think. Many of them are minor things about wording, so if you disagree with them that's not a deal breaker. I read this article aloud to a buddy who's a history buff and has read a bunch of the books cited. He agrees that it is neutral and comprehensive and thinks highly of the article as well. Here's some feedback, let me know what you think. delldot ∇. 02:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Done Two mentions of UDHR in lead, first and last paras, maybe combine?

Redundancy fixed. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:50, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

She advocated for the civil rights of African Americans and Japanese Americans, expanded roles for women in the workplace, and the rights of World War II refugees.

I think you forgot to note the issue on this one... if it's something really obvious, I apologize for being dense. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, this is a redundancy issue again. Fixed. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:50, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Duh, sure did, sorry. I had trouble with the "expanded", which when you're reading through the sentence looks like an active verb: "she advocated for civil rights, she expanded roles..." delldot ∇. 06:24, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I just moved the "expanded roles" to the first item in the list, maybe that fixes it, see what you think. delldot ∇. 06:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Done Maybe break this long sentence into two: Roosevelt attended the school from 1899–1902. The headmistress, Marie Souvestre, was a noted feminist educator who sought to cultivate independent thinking in the young women in her charge, and took a special interest in Roosevelt, who learned to speak French fluently and gained self-confidence.

Done. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Marriage and family life

Done This is a confused way of presenting the townhouse because it's mentioned and then introduced: Returning to the U.S., the newlyweds settled in New York City, in a house provided by Franklin's mother, as well as at the family's estate overlooking the Hudson River in Hyde Park, New York. From the beginning, Eleanor had a contentious relationship with her domineering mother-in-law. Sara gave Eleanor and Franklin a townhouse

Reworded. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done is 'domineering' npov? How about 'controlling'? I'm not sure if that's particularly better. It's better to "show don't tell" of course, which is what the part about Sarah does.

Changed. Controlling does seem a touch less judgmental. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me if you're ok with it. delldot ∇. 06:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Franklin's mother, Sara Delano Roosevelt, opposed the union, and made him promise that the engagement would not be officially announced for a year If you can fit it briefly, it might be interesting to include a quick bit about why she opposed it.

Let me see if I can find a specific rationale in Cook or another source.

Ok, cool, if it's complicated or not that germane no need since the article's already kind of long. delldot ∇. 06:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First Lady of the United States (1933–1945)

Done awkward: She was the first First Lady to hold press conferences

Changed. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done Passive voice is awkward in sentences like this: Herbert Hoover had ordered them dispersed, resulting in the veterans being charged by US Army cavalry charge and bombarded with tear gas. better to reword to active voice

Reworded. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done I'm not sure if this paragraph belongs in an article about Elanor, it's more Franklin's thing: One social highlight of the Roosevelt presidency was the June 1939 visit of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth, the first British monarchs to set foot on U.S. soil. The Roosevelts attracted some media attention for including hot dogs on the menu of a picnic at Hyde Park, which George enjoyed enough to ask for seconds.

I agree. This is left over from a previous version of the article, in part because I felt bad about deleting so much of what was here before I started revisions. But since you agree, I've removed it. It didn't seem to feature prominently in bios of Eleanor that I read. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right on, I think that was the right choice, but I just realized that leaves the picture of the King and Queen with her without context in the article. I don't know what to do about it or if anything is needed, just thought I'd mention it (I had also thought the shot of her with Sinatra was a little weird since there's no mention of the singer). delldot ∇. 06:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arthurdale

Done avoid passive voice: The project was enthusiastically supported by her husband.

Reworded. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done Is this correct? Conservatives condemned it as socialist and a "communist plot", while Democratic members of Congress opposed government competition with private enterprise Wouldn't the latter also be a conservative view? What's the quote from the source?

Odd, but true: "The war against Arthurdale's solvency was led by Democrats who deplored government competition with private business." (Cook 144) -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Use of media

Done In February 1933, she published an editorial in the Women's Daily News conflicting so sharply with her husband's intended public spending policies that he published a rejoinder in the following issue. Is this date correct? She wouldn't have been first lady yet. The para starts with "On entering the White House…"

Reordered para for better chronology. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

World War II

Done Roosevelt herself was forced to resign following anger in the House of Representatives what did she resign from?

As co-chair of the OCD, which she shared with LaGuardia. Added a note to clarify. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:07, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

United Nations

Done six Soviet Bloc countries (Byelorussian SSR, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Ukrainian SSR, USSR, and Yugoslavia) I don't know if it's necessary to list all the countries in an article this general and tangential.

I agree. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:07, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Postwar politics

Done Eliminate passive voice where possible: In the late 1940s, Roosevelt was courted for political office by Democrats in New York and throughout the country.

Fixed. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Honors and awards

Done This section only has two sentences, can we incorporate them somewhere else and dissolve this section? The UN sentence could go somewhere with her UN work.

Done. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Memorials

Done I'm actually not too sure this section is necessary either, at least not a whole paragraph about the bronze statue. Maybe these sections could be combined into Honors, awards, and memorials?

I agree. Done. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Throughout

Replace instances of "Roosevelt" with "Eleanor". Sentences like Roosevelt was also active on the homefront are very awkward and confusing since many of them involve discussion of her husband as well. In this one, it's tough to tell whether it's Eleanor or her son: In 1954, Tammany Hall boss Carmine DeSapio defeated Roosevelt's son, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jr., during the New York Attorney General elections. Roosevelt grew increasingly disgusted with DeSapio's political conduct through the rest of the 1950s. I have changed some instances. I know using a person's first name is a little informal, although 'Eleanor' and 'Franklin' are used a lot in the article already. What do you think of 'ER' and 'Eleanor Roosevelt'? I'm not sure if it's better to use one name for consistency, or to vary it up so it's less repetitive. In paragraphs where there would be way too many Eleanors if the Roosevelts were all replaced, maybe we could do something clever with the wording.

I agree that when another Roosevelt is mentioned in a paragraph, it's better to switch to Eleanor, but I think after FDR's death it's clear enough to call her Roosevelt (except in the instance you mention above.) I don't have any strong objection to ER, but it didn't appear commonly used in sources beyond the Cook bio. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think ER was more in use when she was alive, it probably fell out of use when people stopped talking about her as much. But if you don't mind Eleanor and ER I prefer those over all the Roosevelts partly because I expect when most people see that they will kind of expect the rest of the sentence to be about FDR (or Teddy). The suggestion my buddy made was to go through and replace mentions of her public life with ER and private life with Eleanor. I'll leave this up to you though, I already changed the name in the sentences that I found really confusing. delldot ∇. 07:22, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The word 'precedent' is kind of awkward in sentences that also use the word 'president' or talk about a president. Is there another word we could replace it with? e.g. setting a precedent for future presidential libraries.

I've worked on rewording this, but I'm stumped. The specific innovation here is that FDR left provisions to create a library and museum from his papers, which past presidents apparently hadn't done. "Became a model" or "setting an example" makes it sound too laudatory. But I can't find a way to get the word "president" or "presidential" out of there either. Any suggestions? -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is so trivial I don't want to make a big deal out of it. Some suggestions though: "becoming the first in what would become customary (a tradition)"? "opened on April 12, 1946, becoming the first of many (or of 13) presidential libraries"? "which 12 later presidents would also do (emulate)"? I dunno, if you don't like any of these don't worry about it. delldot ∇. 07:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done Change passive to active voice, e.g. funeral at Hyde Park was attended by President John F. Kennedy

Changed many of these (including that one). A few seem preferable to me for various reasons of sentence/paragraph structure, etc. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Refs

Done There's a broken template parameter in the first ref: Beasley, Maurine (1986). "Eleanor Roosevelt's Vision of Journalism: A Communications Medium for Women". Presidential Studies Quarterly 16 (1): 66–75 ref=harv.

Fixed. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article relies really heavily on Goodwin and Cook. I know it's discouraged to use one or a few sources too heavily, but I don't know if it's a problem here since there are many other sources used as well. Still, there are probably 100 books on ER, it couldn't hurt to use some info from them just so you can assure that everything is balanced. (Not that I can find anything unbalanced, the treatment of controversial stuff is very careful to use many sources and discuss both points of view). I won't demand more books for the GA nom but if you take it to FAC be aware that this might come up.

Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that this article is limited by what I can get from my local library or was willing to go out-of-pocket to purchase by mail. I might make more of an effort to confirm some basic facts from Google Books sources, etc. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right on, this can be a gradual thing that happens as you keep working on the article. delldot ∇. 07:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See also

Done I don't think we need the see also section at all, of course a president and first lady are going to have high schools and stuff named after them, I doubt those things are central enough to the topic to be included here. IIRC See Also sections are kind of discouraged at places like FAC.

Removed. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Really great work, once again! Look forward to hearing back from you about this feedback. Peace, delldot ∇. 02:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much! At first glance, I agree with pretty much all of your comments, and will continue work on this in the morning. -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I think I've addressed the bulk of your concerns. Let me know your thoughts. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Two other really minor things:

Is the picture with the dog supposed to dip down into the other relationships section like that? Other left-aligned photos are underneath the header.
Is there a reason why FDR's article is linked in the captions of the photo and sound bite in the UN section? delldot ∇. 07:22, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for the responses, it's very gratifying to see one's suggestions treated with such thoughtfulness. I think this easily passes the GA criteria now, and I'll leave the few things that are pending or not agreed upon up to your discretion as you continue to work on it. Brief rundown: well written, respects copyright (images checked), verifiable, well cited, OR-free, comprehensive, not overly detailed, neutral, stable. Excellent work! delldot ∇. 07:22, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I filed this under Wikipedia:Good articles/History, I'm not sure if it would be better in Wikipedia:Good articles/Social sciences and society#Political figures, feel free to move it if you want. delldot ∇. 07:47, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for your review and very good suggestions! I'll continue to tinker in the coming days. -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]