Talk:European Rally Championship

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History[edit]

[1] Wild8oar (talk) 12:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FIA archive[edit]

[2] Wild8oar (talk) 12:37, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Codrivers[edit]

Wh aren't they listed? 185.18.60.70 (talk) 00:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning the Manufacturers Championship[edit]

Here it seems to confirm that they were perhaps awarded even informally. ERC @ 70: A brief history While here we have a complete page of all data including teams. Albo d'Oro Campionato Europeo Piloti Rally ERC - scheda completa Comparisons will be made from various sources on the correctness and completeness of the data, including from the ewrc-results.com website Best Regards --Peter39c (talk) 17:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of these links support any notion of Manufacturers or Makes championships. The make of car used, even if entered by a works team, doesn't mean there was a championship for Manufacturers or Makes.

There was a 1968 and 1969 Manufacturers championship and a later Makes championship in the 1990s-2000s but sources are sketchy, and should only add verifiable information. I don't believe in leaving blanks for people to assume that could be filled incorrectly.

I have FIA yearbooks for the 80s years, accordingly I can confidently say no such championships ran. Unless there are sources to be found to say any did (there's no better definitive source) I think the columns should be removed. Rally Wonk (talk) 17:34, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter39c, Before you spend a lot of time and effort, it might be worth it to consider that what you are adding will be removed. It appears you are only succeeding in repeating data from the driver's car column.

May I also ask what you hope to achieve from the 'Group' column? Other than 1966 and 1967, this column suggests there were championships for group B, group A, S2000 which there were not. Rally Wonk (talk) 18:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yet here it clearly says on the fierc.com site.

Official source.

"His co-driver Walter Schlüter switches seats for the following season and wins the crown for the DKW marque."

Also here it expressly says:

"Forza Lancia: The 1980s and the early 1990s are dominated by Lancia with the Italian manufacturer powering nine consecutive champions. A young Miki Biasion is one of them, with the future double world champion triumphing in 1983."

There will be future controls on sources of information.

I'm currently referring to these sources:

fiaerc.com

https://www.albodorodelcalcioedellosport.it/albo-d-oro-campionato-europeo-piloti-rally-erc---scheda-completa.html

and

ewrc-results.com

I will also carry out future searches and possibly insert some asterisks or flags to better define the reliability. Peter39c (talk) 18:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If I may rewrite for simplicity of meaning:

"Walter Schlüter switches seats for the following season and wins the driver's championship whilst driving a DKW car."

Dumb original statement, possibly trying to mean he was employed by them, DKW are not drivers

"Forza Lancia: The 1980s and the early 1990s ERC seasons are dominated by Lancia cars powering drivers to nine consecutive driver's championships. A young Miki Biasion is one of them, with the future double world driver's champion triumphing in the 1983 european driver's championship."

The nature of the sport says a car must be used and like I say, there already is a column for what the winning cars in the drivers championship were. Rally Wonk (talk) 19:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This maybe exactly what you needed to write, but the official site fiaerc.com wrote what I already posted on.

A retrospective revaluation as often happens of events, highlighting the Manufacturers.

Are you certain that the make championship has never been awarded. Your can confirm these source.

rally-erc.com no longer works. the group is relative to the belonging of the car. Peter39c (talk) 00:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://web.archive.org/web/20131112110039/http://www.rally-erc.com/article.php?cont=615

News

28.01.2011

The history of the European Rally Championship

In international rally after the Wold War II the European Rally Championship was one of the most prestigious series. Famous names like Rauno Aaltonen, Pauli Toivonen or Jean-Claude Andruet were among the winners of the title.

Things started to change, when in 1973 the World Rally Championship was inaugurated – for the first years as a manufacturers’ championship only. Understandably their support went to the new championship and when in 1979 the World Rally Championship became also a drivers’ championship, the interest in the European Rally Championship faded away, although it comprised more than forty events in those days. These events had a coefficient from 1 to 4 with which the points were multiplied. All points were taken into the final result – therefore nobody could really follow the standings. It didn’t change much when the coefficients were changed to 2, 5, 10 and 20. The European Rally Championship was much more a championship of organisers than drivers.

When there was finally taken the decision to reduce the ERC to the events with coefficient 20 and to establish the European Rally Cups with the remaining events keeping their coefficients, a new future for the ERC had begun.

Still this was not yet the success that the organizers, which had formed a loose organisation, had hoped for. After many discussions a system of registration, when only registered drivers would get points, was installed to prevent the local heroes to take away classification points although their interested in the ERC was nil.

Nor the ERC is growing steadily again over the past years. The number of registered drivers is increasing and among them are more every year those who really go for the whole ERC. Hopefully with the new system which divides the events in two periods the number of competing drivers will increase again. The events are fantastic and ready to give a platform for drivers and sponsors. Peter39c (talk) 00:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Finally a historical of 2008 has been recovered.

There are no champions for Manufacturers.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160406051340/http://rally-erc.com/2008/champions.php

It doesn't mention co-drivers, teams and manufacturers. Peter39c (talk) 00:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

between 2008 and 2016 the page did not change. Peter39c (talk) 00:58, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, the archives dating back to 2015 do not show any data relating to the constructors' championship.

They don't even mention the co-drivers.

https://www.fiaerc.com/erc/results---standings/archive/2022/

https://www.wrc.com//?proxy=redaktion/archive-pdf-erc/2015-FIA-European-Rally-Championship-Drivers.pdf

But fortunately always going back to the site on wrc.com there are!

https://www.wrc.com//?proxy=redaktion/archive-pdf-erc/2015-FIA-European-Rally-Championship-Co-Drivers.pdf Peter39c (talk) 01:18, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter39c, please stop treating this article like a personal list project. Unless you can provide a source for your content additions, it will continue to be reverted and you will likely be blocked from editing it and maybe elsewhere. I am now going to refer this to an independent reviewer. Rally Wonk (talk) 22:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Third opinion[edit]

voorts (talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below. It's not clear to me what this dispute is about. 05:56, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Viewpoint by Rally Wonk (talk · contribs): There is no such thing as a 'winning car' for each season and no source can back this up. Peter39c has accepted that the cars are not champions, but continues to present them as if they have equal winning status to the champion drivers, hence their change of the section title from Champions to Winners. For me this is like adding a column for 'winning shoes' or 'winning underpants' next to Olympic 100m sprint athletics winners. Where does it stop? Winning tyres, seatbelts, engine oil? It's all personal taste. Rally Wonk (talk) 10:37, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Viewpoint by Peter39c (talk · contribs): ....

Third opinion by voorts: The tables in the article as they are now look fine. I don't see an issue with including the car type next to the names of the winners. I agree that describing the cars as winners themselves is incorrect. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:26, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]