Talk:Eystein I of Norway/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Moswento (talk · contribs) 18:08, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Hello hello! I'll be reviewing this one. An initial read-through looks promising, and I'll post a detailed review below as soon as I can. Moswento ^talky 18:08, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry for the delay. Review comments below. Quite a lot of them, but mostly minor fixes. Overall, the article is broad in its coverage, places it in context, is neutral, with reliable references, no apparent OR or plagiarism, and the pictures all look good. Once the queries below are addressed, I would be happy to promote this to GA. Moswento ^talky 12:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for your thorough review of the article, and I should be able to respond to your comments within a couple days. Thhist (talk) 19:21, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I believe I have addressed all your original issues now (in one way or another; a few have only been commented, not necessarily resolved), and you should note that I have also added some new information. I'll wait for your reassessment. Thhist (talk) 20:02, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing these points - good work! I really like what you've done with the restructuring and addition of material, particularly re the sources in the Background/Legacy sections, and the third paragraph of the 'Reign' section. I definitely enjoyed reading this article through again. I have a few minor follow-up comments, which I've put in a separate section below (scroll right to the bottom). Once these are addressed, I will gladly promote this to GA. Moswento ^talky 13:06, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I have now addressed your final comments, and I have to say that I too am very happy with how the article has developed through this review. If you don't have any further comments, I want to thank you for your quick initial response to my nom and many helpful comments! (Don't hesitate to ask me for a favour back if you think I can help with something.) Thhist (talk) 14:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your responses, and also your encouraging comments about my review. I really enjoyed reviewing this article, and I hope you keep up the good work with these Norwegian kings. My concerns are now addressed, and I believe this meets the good article criteria. I am therefore very happy to promote this to GA. Congratulations! Moswento ^talky 10:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Lead

• "was King of Norway from 1103 to 1123, together with his brothers Olaf Magnusson (until his death in 1115) and Sigurd the Crusader, as Eystein I." - "as Eystein I" coming so late in the sentence makes it slightly confusing. Maybe something like "was King of Norway from 1103 to 1123, as Eystein I. He ruled together with his brothers Olaf Magnusson (until his death in 1115) and Sigurd the Crusader, although in practice, the kingship was only shared by Eystein and Sigurd, since Olaf died before adulthood. [new paragraph here]"?

Agreed and done. Thhist (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "although owed almost exclusively to his three-year crusade to the Holy Land, " - personally, I don't think this is necessary in the lead, although I won't insist on its removal

Maybe putting it in parenthesis is an ok solution? Thhist (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "by all accounts also greatly beloved by his people." - "by all accounts" and "greatly beloved" aren't very encyclopedic language.

Do you have a suggestion for another way to put it? I think this should be noted in some way. Thhist (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Could it be better to instead write something like "gained the affection of his people." Thhist (talk) 12:01, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• " from Bergen and north to the fishing centre in Lofoten." - "from Bergen to the fishing centre of Lofoten in the north"?

Ok. Thhist (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• " was succeeded by" - perhaps phrase this differently, because it's not really a succession if Sigurd was already king. Perhaps "and his brother Sigurd became the sole Norwegian king"?

I think that's a good solution. Thhist (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• Infobox caption "Contemporary marble bust of Eystein." - If it's not certain that this was produced during his lifetime, I would avoid the word "contemporary", and just put " Early 12th-century"

I used "contemporary" based on a more loose definition that also includes a couple decades after someones death (potentially as long as living people still could remember him personally), but it might be better as you suggest to avoid any confusion. Thhist (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Background

• "Eystein was the oldest of the brothers, as Sigurd was about a year younger, and Olaf was more than ten years younger." - you've already mentioned he's the oldest child, so there's no need to mention it again. Perhaps you could move the age differences after the "Eystein became king together with his two brothers Olaf and Sigurd, all of whom had different mothers" sentence?
• "Theodoric the Monk wrote about Eystein that he..." - firstly, perhaps some context about Theodoric the Monk would be helpful, particularly that he was writing in the 12th Century. Secondly, I'm not sure this paragraph is really "Background". I would either find a way to work some of it into "Reign", or move it to a "Legacy" section that could incorporate the current "Marble bust" section. If you do move it into a legacy section, you would need to introduce Snorri when you first mention him in the "Reign" section
• "Much of the later sagas' accounts concerning Eystein are however characterized by literary motifs, and have little value as sources." - the beginning of this sentence could be improved, perhaps a simple "Many accounts of Eystein in later sagas, however, are..."
• "literary motifs" - readers will have an idea of what you mean, but it would be nice if you could expand on this a bit. What is the nature of these literary motifs?
• "little value as sources" - I would clarify "little value as sources on his life", because they still have value as sources about (for instance) the literature and culture of the period etc.
• "mannjevning" - this word could do with explanation in brackets
• " in which the two engage in a conversation of comparing and outdoing each other by bragging and contrasting their skills and deeds." - this sentence seems overly long, esp. "comparing and outdoing by bragging and contrasting". Perhaps shorten it - I'm thinking of something like "in which the two boast about their skills and deeds in an attempt to outdo each other"

I have restructured/rewritten the paragraph to address the issues above (except the first one). Thhist (talk) 12:01, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Reign

• "According to Snorri Sturluson, "it was the common talk among the people, that none had ever made so honourable a journey from Norway as this of King Sigurd."" - This quote seems superfluous in an article about Eystein (happy to discuss, though)

After thinking a bit, I agree that it is probably not necessary. I had included it only to illustrate the high regard that apparently was held for his journey. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "although owed in a large part only to his one-time crusade" - the phrasing here is a bit awkward. Something simpler like "mainly because of his one-time crusade" might work?

Ok. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "modern historians" - could you be more specific. Who? Is this just based on Claus Krag's view, or does he mention others? (I don't have access to this source)

I think you are correct that it in this context it is presented as a view held by Krag. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Eystein has been portrayed in contrast" - "in contrast" is redundant because of the "while" at the start of the sentence

Ok. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "historical records indicates" - indicate

Ok. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "are however known" - "are, however, known" (however's meaning changes with different punctuation)

Ok. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Eystein was particularly active in Bergen,..." - this paragraph has a lot of "Eynstein did x", "Eynstein also did y" etc. Would be easier to read if some of the Eynsteins were changed to "He" or the sentences reconfigured

I have rewritten and restructured the section, while also adding a few further details. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Otherwise, Pope Callixtus II calls Eystein "Aistano" in a letter." - I'm uncertain about the function of this sentence. I realise you mention Theodoric's name, but this sentence seems out of place, and I'm not sure of the significance or relevance of this fact

I had included it to counter the use of the Latinised name "Augustinus" by Theodoric in the previous sentence. I agree it might be a bit out of place though. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "At this point in time, " - seems a bit redundant - we assume it's "at this point in time", or else you wouldn't be mentioning it

Done. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• "formerly built" - I think "formerly" is unnecessary here

Done. Thhist (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• ""at the stem there was a dragon's head, and at the stern a crooked tail, and both were gilded over. The ship was high-sided; but the fore and aft parts appeared less than they should be." / "his body was carried north to Nidaros, and buried in Christ church; and it is generally said that so many mourners never stood over any man's grave in Norway as over King Eystein's, at least since the time Magnus the Good, Saint Olaf's son, died." - Do these quotes need to be this long? Can you paraphrase some parts of them?

Family

• "lenderman" - what's a lenderman?

It was a Google translation of lendmann, but I see that this word has its own article on Wikipedia and seems acceptable to use as it is. Thhist (talk) 12:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Bust

• "it is however unclear" - "it is unclear" would be fine; the "however" isn't needed

Ok. Thhist (talk) 12:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

References

• FN1 - An accessdate would be good

Done. Thhist (talk) 12:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Follow-up comments

• Lead Opening paragraph seems a bit too long - worth splitting into two for readability
• Lead "Eystein and Sigurd's reign was the longest joint rule in Norwegian history." - This is quite an important point, and is worth mentioning in the main body of the text, probably at the end of the "Reign" section. Once it's added there, you won't need the footnote in the lead.
• Reign "historian Claus Krag have considered" - "has considered"
• Reign "He also secured the route along the coast by constructing a port in Agdenes on the mouth of the Trondheimsfjord, as well as smaller beacons along the coast. The construction of the port in Agdenes was compared by Theodoric the Monk to Augustus Caesar's construction of the port at Brundisium," - "constructing a port...construction of the port...construction of the port" is a bit repetitive. Maybe rephrase second sentence to something like "Eystein's port construction in Agdenes was compared by Theodoric the Monk to that of Augustus Caesar at Brundisium".
• Legacy "literary decor " - this seems like a very odd phrase. I would suggest something like "literary embellishments"
• Legacy I think wikilinking Vågan and Hjerkinn would be useful. The last two paragraphs could also be combined into one (just removing the paragraph break).
• Legacy "by a design of Magnus Poulsson" - "according to a design by Magnus Poulsson"?