Talk:FC Arsenal Kyiv/Archive 1

Corrections

To 194.44.242.39

Listen here. First of all there is no such word in the Ukrainian as Dim unless you refer to smoke. Dom translates as Budinok, therefore as you noted later team was called OBO as the Regional Officers Club. Second of all the CSKA wasn't simply fusioned with Borysfen in 1994, because it just won the Third league and the whole third and forth divisions were reformed into one Druha Liha. Season after "your fusion" CSKA won Druha Liha in the same season when FC CSKA-Borysfen placed second in Persha. Before doing such corrections why don't you check the historical facts more thoroughly. For that, please, visit http://www.ukrsoccerhistory.com and under the "Kluby" menu choose "Chempionaty ta Kubky Ukrainy". I apologize to you and all the other CSKA/Arsenal fans, if I in anyway dishonor your pride of a soccer fan. I never meant. Most of your contributions will be helpfull for CSKA Kyiv. Aleksandr Grigoryev 06:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

To 194.44.242.39

Forget what I said. It must be me who's crazy, but there is NO SUCH WORD as Dim. If you can't speak Ukrainian, please, don't even try while being a russophil. Aleksandr Grigoryev 06:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

FC Arsenal Kyiv → FC Arsenal Kiev — I don't want to repeat it again, but consensus(who opposed moving Dynamo Kyiv to Dynamo Kiev) still using their criteria. Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Sports teams has stated clearly:

Sports teams This is the English language Wikipedia so generally the regular English name should be used. For example, use Bayern Munich rather than FC Bayern München, Red Star Belgrade rather than Crvena Zvezda and so on. Note the English name is not always the 'authentic' name used on the club crest and so on. For example, Sporting Clube de Portugal are always called Sporting Lisbon in the English-speaking world.

—Raymond Giggs 16:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose - for the same reasons as at Dynamo Kyiv. Even the mover of this proposal says that consensus was against the move of that page. Other clubs, such as Bayern and Sporting, are irrelevant in this debate. - fchd 17:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose, those conventions really should be changed, considering the huge opposition to the Dynamo Kyiv move. Again, my reasons are that every club should be at the local name in the Latin alphabet. - MTC 17:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support Give me at least one good reason why the page shouldn't be moved. There's a clear rule, and, what is by far more important, the club is known as Arsenal Kiev, hence the more commonly used name. So the reason why you people are opposing the move, basing your desicion on some absolutely irrelevant precedent, ignoring the fact that the club itself and the city it plays in is commonly known as Kiev, is simply beyond my understanding. BanRay 20:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose, no way, not this again. Bogdan 02:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose per my reasons at Talk:FC Dynamo Kyiv. This is ridiculous. —dima/talk/ 02:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Support - Use English and Keep consistency with FC Dynamo Kiev. Reginmund 03:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Strong oppose Same reasons as at Dynamo Kyiv. Ostap 03:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. This has nothing to do with the name of the city. The city is Kiev but the name of the club a separate issue. If the name was just "Arsenal" and we would have to say that this is the club Arsenal which is from Kiev, this would have been a different story. The name, however is "Arsenal Kyiv". "Kyiv" here is part of the organization's name, not the name of its own. We have a newspaper called Kyiv Post, another organization called Kyivstar. That the city's most common name is Kiev does not affect the names of the organizations which exist on their own right. --Irpen 04:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment:Give me a source that says that the official name of the club or organization, whatever you call it, is Arsenal Kyiv. BanRay 10:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Reply - Ray, glad you asked. Here is the official website [1], however it does not offer an English version. But the fan site does and has FC Arsenal Kyiv running across the top of its home page. Soccerway site also uses FC Arsenal Kyiv.

• Reply Well, Soccerway is hardly an official source. I can give you a few much bigger websites, like soccerage (goal.com) or soccernet, who use Arsenal Kiev. In fact, the Cyrillic name might be the only official one. The organization is registered in Ukraine after all. So what's the point in misspelling the city's name and using the less common version of the club's name when it's not even an official one. If that's the only point you're basing your desicion on, then you're simply wrong, because the whole argument falls flat right there. BanRay 19:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Reply - I base my position on the fact that the official English name of the team is FC Arsenal Kyiv, which is a direct phonetic translation used by the team. Additionally, Arsenal Kyiv is this way b/c it bases its own name off of the more famous football team which is Dynamo Kyiv; visit Dynamo's official website to verify what is its official name. Again, I think there is a huge mismatch between the interpretation recently applied to the FC Dynamo Kyiv and the reality on the ground. How can names of organizational articles and Football Clubs be simply renamed against the broad consensus of Wikipedia's editors? Wikipedia is not a one man(woman) project; it is about collaboration and arriving at a consensus, and when the consensus is for keeping FC Dynamo Kyiv, when it is for keeping FC Arsenal Kyiv, why can others who are trusted with administratorial duties, why they flaunt the will of this community?--Riurik^(discuss) 22:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Reply OK, I'll put it the other way round, where is the evidence that the word Kyiv (Kiev) is part of the organization's name? BanRay 23:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - UEFA.com lists the team's name as "FC Arsenal Kyiv" (look right above the large headline). FIFA.com also lists the team as "Arsenal Kyiv" - interestingly, though, it gives the city as "Kiev" here, which seems to be relevant to the question at hand... ugen64 23:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment That is exactly the situation which is here in wiki right now.. the city is named Kiev (more common than Kyiv for the city), while the football club - FC Arsenal Kyiv (the official name). As for whether "Kiev" is part of the club's name.. take a look at the club's logo at the official website.. —dima/talk/ 00:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose Wikipedia is about giving correct information, therefore correct translation has to be used. And Kyiv is also a correct translation of city's name from Ukrainian (only official language in Ukraine) to English. Wikipedia is about correct information. --MaksKhomenko 16:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment:You have self-conflicted. The move of Dynamo Kyiv means that Kiev is the English. You should support Kiev if you say Wikipedia is about correct information. On the other hand, some of the opposer agreed that Kiev is the English, and Kyiv is not. Raymond Giggs 17:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - you just don't get it. Kiev is the *old* English version of the city name, Kyiv is the *modern* version. I can't help it if some sources haven't caught up yet. - fchd 21:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment - Well, are you sure? Raymond Giggs 09:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment - absolutely. 100%. - fchd 19:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
          • Comment You miss the point, it's not up to "sources" to decide what's right and what's wrong, there are special language institutes for that. There are no older or newer versions, there are correct and incorrect ones and Kiev is the correct one here. BanRay 20:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
            • Comment - so what's the "special language institute" for the English Language? (or Ukrainian come to that) I don't miss the point at all. The Russified name of the city transliterates to "Kiev", the Ukrainian name transliterates to "Kyiv". During the Soviet era, it would have been correct to refer to all things relating to the city as Kiev. Since Ukrainian independence, Kyiv is the proper version. Can you justify that the correct name is "Kiev"? - fchd 20:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
            • Guys, please do not stray the discussion off topic. There are plenty of reasons to call the city Kiev and the main one is that this is the most common name of the city used in English language. This page about the FC is not the place for the city name discussion. We are discussing the name of the organization. The name of the organization consists of two words, not one. If the name of the club was just "Arsenal" and we were denoting its designation city, we would have said "FC Arsenal", Kiev. But the name of the club is "FC Arsenal Kyiv", where "Kyiv" is just part of the name. By this logic we would have to rename Kyivstar (which translates the "Star of Kiev") as well. Please do not dump everything together. We are discussing the name of the organization only, not the geographic name. --Irpen 20:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
              • Why are you so sure that the club's official name is Arsenal Kyiv and not just "Футбольний Клуб Арсенал" (spelling?)? So far I've failed to see any evidence of that Irpen. Oh, and you say that the main reason to call the city Kiev is that Kiev is the most common name, but isn't Arsenal Kiev the most common and widely used name of the club? So what's the difference? BanRay 22:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
                • Comment - Irpen may still want to respond directly, but the reply to your question was offered above, see "ugen64 23:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)" and others.--Riurik^(discuss) 03:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - for the same reasons as at Dynamo Kyiv. This is the way this f/club and Dynamo Kyiv provide their names in English. --Hillock65 16:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - organizational/fc club entries are different from the city entries; see Irpen's argument for elaboration.--Riurik^(discuss) 16:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - For the same obvious reasons as at Dynamo Kyiv. Narking 22:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Irpen and Riurik. -- Arwel (talk) 22:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose- I think Irpen said it consisely. In the meanwhile can the article be protected from disruptive admins? This would be in order to prevent another name hijacking as had occured in the FC Dynamo Kyiv article. Cheers Eduvalko 04:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Just for the record, as the survey is clearly pointless (someone has moved the article anyway). The reasons are as per Talk:FC Dynamo Kiev. Dkua 02:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Obviously, everyone above is wasting their time here, because the administrators on Wikipedia have little to no regard to near complete consensus on an issue and go by whatever they personally think is right. "FC Arsenal Kyiv" -wikipedia vs. "FC Arsenal Kiev" -wikipedia is 3720 to 1450...this club is never referred to as the latter, despite even the ignorance of folks on the Internet. I think if any of you have any chance of fixing any of these club names to their proper name (and most widely used names), you'll have to find administrators actually knowledgeable in this field and will stand their ground in these "issues" (they're not even debates since they're driven by a 15 year old boy from Hong Kong who apparently knows squat about European soccer). --Palffy 16:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions. It doesn't matter what consensus on one talk page says - policy trumps consensus. We have a global approach to naming conventions - as this is the English Wikipedia, articles are named in the English name. As Kiev is at Kiev and not Kyiv, the articles will stay at Kiev, not Kyiv. Neil ☎ 16:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

No one here was arguing about the naming of the city...the club, as an entity, has an official (!) name thats more commonly used in English than any other name, and that is "FC Arsenal Kyiv". You really have no expertise on this topic to make these decisions for everyone.. --Palffy 16:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

eh? The more commonly used name in English is in fact Arsenal Kiev, as for Arsenal Kyiv being the official name of the club, I still haven't seen eny evidence of that. BanRay 00:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed - that move was a great abuse of administrative priviliges. At the very least, User:Neil should have noticed that a discussion on the renaming of this page was going on here. - fchd 17:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

"Abuse of administrator privileges" indeed. Move discussions on local pages don't override the global consensus on naming conventions, a policy which was arrived at by the community entire, rather than one enclave. See Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, Dynamo Kiev, AC Milan, etc. This has been discussed many many many many many many many many many many many times. Neil ☎ 18:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The Red Star desicion was indeed a bad one if you ask me, the club is usually known as Crvena Zvezda nowadays, plus, unlike the cases with the Ukrainian clubs, it's the name of the club, not city that is being translated. That way we might end up with Pearl Sochi instead of Zhemchuzhina Sochi, Future Viljandi instead of Tulevik Viljandi, this list is really endless. I will definitely request a review of that desicion in the nearest future. BanRay 00:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

AC Milan?! AC Milan (Associazione Calcio Milan) is the official Italian name of the club, even the Italian Wikipedia agrees on that, it is never called "AC Milano". As for the rest of your list:

• Steaua Bucureşti is, like this one, an article you have moved against consensus.
• FK Crvena Zvezda has been moved back and forth recently without discussion.
• Dynamo Kyiv has been moved against consensus recently, despite the fact that "Dynamo Kyiv" is not only an official name but common too.

All these point to the fact that the conventions for football club names need to be changed. - MTC 19:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Then I advise you to discuss it at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions. At this moment in time, the convention is very clear. More examples - Spartak Moscow not Spartak Moskva, Hapoel Tel Aviv not הפועל תל-אביב‎, Urawa Red Diamonds not 浦和レッドダイヤモンズ or Urawa Reddo Daiyamonzu, Wrexham F.C. not Clwb Pêl-droed Wrecsam, and so on. Neil ☎ 09:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Not quite the same thing - those clubs use (not sure about Spartak), the translated version as the English name of the club. Arsenal Kyiv use Arsenal Kyiv as the English name. - 17:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Rundle (talk • contribs)

FC Spartak Moscow is an official name (see official site), just like FC Dynamo Kyiv (see official site) and FC Arsenal Kyiv (see official site). (Not to mention that Spartak Moscow, Dynamo Kyiv and Arsenal Kyiv are brands which are well recognizable by anyone who has followed football in those countries.) Dkua 01:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

If so than why are all Brazilian clubs articles use full names instead of short ones? If Arsenal Kyiv and Crvena Zvezda are wrong than i demand for Sport Club Corinthians Paulista to be changed to simply Corinthians, and the same goes for every other Brazilian club article!--MaksKhomenko 17:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

---

A centralized discussion of this issue has been commenced. You are invited to participate to reach consensus on the topic. See Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Naming convention for sports teams. --Riurik^(discuss) 07:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.