Talk:FC Bayern Munich/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Squad template

I know there was a discussion about the reserve players being on the senior team roster and as far as I can see on the main article, they are not included. So why are they listed on the squad template? Hubschrauber729 (talk) 06:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Club Name

Hi Wiggy!

Are you sure that the full official name is "Fussball-Club Bayern München e.V."? Though I find it hard to dig up some real good evidence, the name really seems to be "FC Bayern München e.V.". While the "FC" is obviously shorthand for "Fußballclub" I think that only the short version "FC" is part of the club name, making it "FC Bayern München e.V.". Even if I'm wrong on that part I still suppose, that the name is "Fußballclub" and not "Fussball-Club". If you have better sources please drop a link. Anybody else is obviously welcome, too.

Thanks and Regards, OdinFK (talk) 11:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Grüne's Vereinslexikon gives "Fußball-Club", which is the common usage throughout the country for "FC" (i.e. Fußball-Club Bayern München e.V.). That reference provides the official full name for each team that it lists as well as the club's common and historical names. I'll have to scan and post a typical club listing so everyone can see what's what. This weekend sometime .... Wiggy! (talk) 11:43, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

paragraph i'd like to add

Hi!

I would like to add the following text to the article because I think it belongs in it. Well actually I think that something to that effect belongs into the article. Being a Bayern supporter myself I would like to have somebody more neutral read this in advance, because I think it sounds biased right now. Maybe that cannot be helped because the part is inherently positive, but I would rather not decide that myself. Also I don't know really were to put it. Any suggestions? Ah, and if you can improve my English, don't hesitate...

"Bayern has time and again shown to have a soft spot for clubs in financial disarray. Repeatedy the club has supported its local rival 1860 Munich with gratuitous friendlies, transfers at favorable rates, and direct money transfers. Also when St. Pauli threatened to lose its license for professional football due to financial problems, Bayern met the club for a friendly game free of any charge, giving all revenues to St. Pauli. More recently when Mark van Bommel's home club Fortuna Sittard was in financial distress Bayern came to a charity game at the Dutch club. Another well known example was the transfer of Alexander Zickler in 1993. When Bayern signed up Zickler for 2,3 Mio DM many considered the sum to be a subvention for the financially threatened Dresdeners."

PS: I have sources for all of that. Thanks, OdinFK (talk) 11:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it would make an neat aside, especially given that you have it sourced. An interesting spin on the country's richest club. I thought that they lent Unterhaching a hand up at one time as well. Wiggy! (talk) 12:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering for a while how this could be incorporated into the article as it doesn't fit into any existing section. Maybe a section about charity could be included, though. I'm thinking about something along the following lines, but it still would be nice if someone could point out areas that need improvement.

"==Charity==

Bayern has been known to be involved with charitable ventures for a long time, helping other football clubs in financial disarray as well as ordinary people in misery. In the wake of the 2004 Tsunami the "FC Bayern – Hilfe e.V." was founded, a foundation that aims to concentrate the social engagements of the club. At its inception this venture was funded with 600,000€, raised by officials and players of the club. The money was amongst other things used to build a school in Marathenkerny, Sri Lanka and to rebuild the area of Trincomalee, Sri Lanka. Recently the focus of the foundation has shifted to support people in need locally.

The club has also time and again shown to have a soft spot for clubs in financial disarray. Repeatedly the club has supported its local rival 1860 Munich with gratuitous friendlies, transfers at favorable rates, and direct money transfers. Also when St. Pauli threatened to lose its license for professional football due to financial problems, Bayern met the club for a friendly game free of any charge, giving all revenues to St. Pauli. More recently when Mark van Bommel's home club Fortuna Sittard was in financial distress Bayern came to a charity game at the Dutch club. Another well known example was the transfer of Alexander Zickler in 1993. When Bayern signed up Zickler for 2,3 Mio DM many considered the sum to be a subvention for the financially threatened Dresdeners."

As before sources are available. OdinFK (talk) 12:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

From memory, they also helped out Hertha once, about 20 years ago. EA210269 (talk) 13:45, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Honours

Hi!

The honours section gets kind of crowded with all those friendly honours and youth championships, etc. Wouldn't it be preferable to put the full honour list into another article (I would do it if you agree)? These local and friendly honours are not really that notable and should not be in the main FCB article in my opinion. I think it is done quite well in the Real Madrid article although I don't know whether Runners-up should really be considered an honour. Would you?

Also I wonder if the number of honours really warrants its own article. Right now I would move the stuff into an new section in the FC Bayern Munich statistics article. OdinFK (talk) 13:14, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I think honours would be too small of an article. I would put everything into a new section inFC Bayern Munich statistics while keeping the the Bundesliga trophies, DFB Cup trophies European Cup, UEFA Cup trophy and Cup Winners' Cup trophy in the main article. Kingjeff (talk) 19:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. (Hope you don't mind me indenting you, Kingjeff) Madcynic (talk) 20:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

No problem at all. Kingjeff (talk) 20:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Done. Added a real introduction, too. OdinFK (talk) 07:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Captains

Is it true that Kahn and Effenberg were joint captains from 1999-2002? I did some looking up and could not find anything about it. Any sources, or does anybody at least think he remembers this having been so? Also do the former captains really belong into the article? The article is already cluttered with statistics and tables, especially towards the end. And finally is it a good idea to assign the Hall of Famers to more or less random decades? Despite the obvious shortcomings of that approach I don't see any real advantage to that at a mere 15 players in the Hall of Fame. OdinFK (talk) 07:03, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

2010 shirts

Hi, could someone maybe make a new third shirt? It isnt white/red anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.171.96.225 (talk) 16:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Ekici: Turkish or German?

I misunderstood your position! I thought this was about being German footballer or Turkish (as in representing a national team); the part about him wanting/going to play for Turkey threw me! I would have look at Zidane's page to see how his heritage is handled. Sorry, my mistake!! Raul17 (talk) 04:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

According to FIFA Ekici is a German [1]. I have restored this fact back to the FC Bayern wiki. At some point FIFA will probably update their website and/or his status, but officially he is still classified as a German. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 20:33, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

That article is not a bible of players' nationalities, it's just statistics for FIFA-competitions. Plenty of players have played for their countries without playing in FIFA competitions (only UEFA, or friendlies, or other confederation), so won't be listed on that page. That page isn't useful for these purposes: Ekici won't be listed there as Turkish until he plays in the finals of a World Cup for them. The nationality flag is to show the nation the player represents, it's very clear. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 21:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

To put it another way: FIFA set the rules of players' nationality - who do we think more reliably abides by these rules, a particular part of the website, or a member federation playing international football? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 21:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I hope you don't misunderstand my position; I believe he will be recognized as Turkish at some point by FIFA. I believe you feel this way too and just want to "cut cut to the chase". Am I right? Currently, however, FIFA says he is German. He is both Turkish and German, but what is at issue is that our article should reflect what FIFA is reporting. Can you provide any other examples of national players that FIFA has said is of one nationality, while we claim they are of another? Erikeltic ^(Talk) 23:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The FIFA site to which you refer only lists plays who have played in the tournament finals of FIFA competitions: Ekici will not be recorded as Turkish until/unless he plays in the World Cup Finals. He could score the winning goal in UEFA Euro 2012 and that site will not reflect him being Turkish, because it's not that site's job to do that: it's just a page of historical statistics. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 23:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Can you find one reliable source from FIFA that says he is a Turk? Erikeltic ^(Talk) 23:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Not direct from FIFA, because he hasn't played for Turkey in a competition directly run by FIFA, but the TFF abide by FIFA's rules, International Friendlies abide by their rules, so that's pretty clear and unambiguous evidence. This is something that's actually happened under the auspices of FIFA, and the fact that their website hasn't covered it shouldn't stop us reflecting that. I don't see why the reference has to come from the absolute top, FIFA's website is just one of many, and it isn't fully comprehensive. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 23:35, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's an example for you: René Schneider won the European championship with Germany in 1996, but only won one cap. It wasn't in a World Cup game, so he isn't listed by FIFA at all. So what then? It shows at the very least that Ekici's change will not necessarily be represented if it goes far enough. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 23:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Or Nikola Nikezic: Played for Serbia and Montenegro in the 2004 Olympics before Montenegro broke away, now a Montenegrin international, but listed as Serbian by FIFA because he didn't play in the World Cup. [2]. I can't see that by any definition he is Serbian, except historically - and all that site is is a historical site. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 23:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Neither of these examples is comparable to the subject at hand. RE; Rene Schneider (the footballer, not the Chilean) was apparently German and nobody is aruging over a dissolved country. If he was listed as an "East German" then I would tend to agree with you, but that is not the case here. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 23:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The Nikezic thing is directly comparable - the circumstances of his change in nationality may be different, but it proves my point: that that particular part of the FIFA website is not a reliable source, because it is not fully comprehensive and up-to-date and nor does it seek to be - you cannot use it as a reference, and certainly you can't hold it up as the only useful reference. A change in national borders is one way in which players can change nationality - it's a more egregious example, but that proves my point: if we follow these rules for Ekici completely and trust only this irrelevant section of the FIFA website, then you can only conclude that Nikezic is clearly Serbian - but clearly he is not. Agsin, the question is this: what is more reliable, a national football federation that comes under FIFA and obeys by its rules and the matches that it plays under those rules, or a section of the FIFA website that makes no intention of being fully comprehensive or up-to-date? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 00:00, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Take a look at this [3]. Specifically, take a look at Mario Gomez. There is a dual Spanish and German flag. What if we do the same for Ekici here? Would that be an acceptable compromise to you? Erikeltic ^(Talk) 23:56, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind that, but the template doesn't allow for it. In any case there'd only be the same dispute over which is the primary flag, but the whole point of showing a player's nationality is to show who the player represents (or would represent). In Ekici's case, that's Turkish. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 00:03, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

We have not reached a consensus, the examples you provided are not relevant or comparable, and regardless of what you believe FIFA is the governing body and they classify him as German. (period) I suggest we A) refrain from modifying this article until consensus is reached and B) involve other editors in this disucssion--which should be taking place on the talk page of the article. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 12:32, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Your link didn't show me anything. Also, the table states that it's FIFA-recognized, not the country that recognizes him. Eventually he will show correctly on the FIFA site, so don't worry about the reference, at least not for my sake. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Walter. FIFA is the regulating body, not Turkish football. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 23:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

But I re-iterate what I wrote above: the TFF have to follow FIFA rules, so what they do is a much more reliable guide than a non-comprehensive website. The fact that they have picked him, means he is eligible for them under the rules laid down by FIFA. What happens in the actual game should be followed far more closely than an arbritarily chosen website. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 23:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

And I will reiterate what I wrote above: FIFA says he is a German. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 23:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The FIFA source is a non-comprehensive page of historical statistics. FIFA says he was German. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 23:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

If the Turkish football association counts, then you should not have an issue with Bundesliga which (like FIFA's website) lists Ekici as a German. [4] Erikeltic ^(Talk) 12:40, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

According to MOS:FLAG there should be no doubt he should have a Turkish flag. "Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense; flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality." - Having chosen and represented the Turkish senior team and now, being locked into representing them from this point on, this guideline makes it clear his flag should be Turkish, and that using a German flag is incorrect. Camw (talk) 12:44, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Where in MOS:FLAG is that? I can't seem to locate any portion of your quote. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 12:54, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, it is at MOS:FLAG#Use_of_flags_for_sportspeople, I should have linked directly. Camw (talk) 12:56, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't know why I missed that. At any rate, does it matter that he has only played in one friendly for Turkey and that both FIFA and Bundesliga claim he is German? Erikeltic ^(Talk) 13:17, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I would say not. Even if sources are considered reliable, we should use common sense that when they are out of date and there are other reliable sources that accurately describe new information, the up to date sources should be used - it doesn't make sense to dogmatically stick to a source when we know it is not accurate for our purposes. There are a few sources I've found from a quick search that indicate the players decision to represent Turkey - "Mehmet Ekici has chosen to play for the country of his ancestors", "pledge his future to Turkey" and so on, plus match reports showing that he made his debut for the Turkish team. These cover the part of MOS:FLAG that says "a reliable source should be used to show who the sportsperson has chosen to represent". Camw (talk) 13:44, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. I can admit when I'm wrong. Thanks for providing that policy. I am going to review several other pages I've seen that are inconsistent with MOS:FLAG. FWIW, I believe we should follow the example on German Wikipedia and have both flags. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 13:51, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the reasonable discussion! Flags are a difficult issue and I know there have been lots of attempts in the past to change the way we work with them. I wouldn't be opposed to modifications, but believe me when I say it will be a long, difficult process to get agreement to make significant changes. Camw (talk) 13:56, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the change should be to their implied intent. At first glance it is not obvious that the flag denotes the national team for which the footballer players. I really think there should be a means of making that more explicit. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 13:59, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

A good place to start with any proposed site-wide change would be WP:WikiProject Football as this template is football specific. I know that there was a change earlier this year to add the note about national eligibility at the start of the infobox, so it may be possible through time and determination to make more changes. Camw (talk) 14:03, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the reference to FIFA above the infoboxes has perhaps led to confusion, and should perhaps be re-worded. As per the MOS, and if the flags to are to have any use at all, it should be who the player represents - i.e. it follows FIFAs rules, but it doesn't mean that FIFA need be the only, or even the primary source. As I've said many times, the FIFA site does not contain a comprehensive or up-to-date database of players' nationalities, and nor does it seek to: it has historical pages, and statistics, and news articles, and current information for its own competitions, and for those things it is useful. It is not the oracle, though, and given that, we can definitely refer to confederations e.g. UEFA, or the national associations, all of which follow FIFA's rules, as well as evidence of real-life events that happen under the auspices of FIFA (e.g. Ekick's Turkey debut). ArtVandelay13 (talk) 15:02, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I started the process by responding to Art's new section, which he began yesterday. At least one other editor there shares my position on Ekici, but without a policy to back it up there isn't much of a debate there, I guess. I still feel that we are jumping the gun and one friendly for Turkey doesn't/shouldn't qualify him as a Turkish footballer, but c'est la vie. If he quits their national squad / gets hit by a bus / breaks his leg / (insert whatever here) between now and his first non-friendly for Turkey, then I think his flag should be reverted back to that of Germany. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 15:05, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Thomas Müller

Isnt Thomas Müller An Forward?--Thangthang56 (talk) 09:54, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

According to the roster, yes. Fixed. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 10:27, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Valuation and ownership

I have noticed that several other club articles (the one I looked at was Arsenal F.C.‎) show the financial status of the clubs and their market valuation. Are similar numbers and information available for FCB? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

For financial figures check de:FC Bayern München AG, Deloitte Football Money League, and Forbes' list of the most valuable football clubs. I'm not so much into economics, so I don't know if "market valuation" is applicable here—Bayern's shares are not traded in a stock exchange... --Berntie (talk) 12:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Crest - no picture?

The crest gets a separate heading, but not a single version is shown. Could someone who has a picture handy please upload one? HMallison (talk) 14:24, 13 December 2010 (UTC)