Talk:Fausto Veranzio

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Self-contradiction[edit]

In trying to edit this article, I note that the “Veranzio’s parachute” section first declares Veranzio’s 1619 test of his proto-parachute to have been documented in a book by one John Wilkins, then goes on to say that the cited book doesn’t so much as mention it. Can anyone settle the matter? Mucketymuck (talk) 22:25, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

did he survive?[edit]

I wanna know how his little parachute "test" performed. Did he even survive it, and how did it work out?

Nationality?[edit]

The concept of nationality is clearly not applicable to Fausto Veranzio. Croatia and Italy as nations did not exist in the XVI century. Possibly it is applicable the concept of citizenship (please see the example of Evangelista Torricelli). Before deciding if adding the citizenship I am removing the nationality from the Infobox. If someone is really keen to add the nationality a source a needed. And mind well a source does not mean a citation such as "Fausto Veranzio was an Italian polymath" or "Fausto Veranzio was a Croatian polymath". We need a source stating that he had one of those nationality. Silvio1973 (talk) 16:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Faust Vrančić was born in territory of present day Croatia, he was a Croat, e.g. Giulio Clovio. Same thing can be said about Leonardo da Vinci, he was not a Italian by nationality, but Italian by ethnicity. Thus the article of da Vinci does not include nationality in infobox, but states as "was an Italian polymath..." (linking to Italians). I reverted the comparable statement about Vrančić, "was a Croatian polymath" (linking to Croats). Yes, the term of the nations as we know today didn't exist before 19th century and national revival, but ethnic identity. If we're going by that argument and analyze, most of the people who we know as famous Italians, Germans, Croats and so on would be questionable part of modern nationality and national histories. It's more about cultural and geographical identification than modern day nationality. --Crovata (talk) 00:23, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Two different animals. Let's clarify:
1)Nationality: unless you do not provide a source stating he had Croatian nationality you cannot state anywhere in the article (including in the infobox) that he had such nationality. Feel free to look around, but I can bet my life you will not find a reputable and reliable source stating that he had any nationality. That concept did not exist in that part of the Europe in the 16th century.
2)Ethnicity: if you look into the archives (Archive 3) there was consensus about the fact that he was of Italian ethnicity (hence the choice to have the article directed to the romance version of the name). That consensus was reached screening a large number of sources. Now, there is not added value in stating the alleged ethnicity of Veranzio in the article, but just creates the conditions for edit-warring. In this sense, the best thing to do is to remove the reference to the ethnicity in the lead. Mind well, this is a generous compromise.
Of course nothing is forever. You can change the reached consensus bringing new evidence, but in the meantime the article stay as it was agreed but please feel free to discuss here your position. Silvio1973 (talk) 07:59, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I already said and clarified that nationality and ethnicity are two different things, and his nationality will never be found in reliable source. Sorry, but I cannot find anywhere in archive there was a clear consensus he was an Italian by ethnicity. The discussions were only about his name, not his ethnicity (some, including you, wrongly extracted additional interpretation). Vrančić was not an Italian, but an ethnic Croatian, like Giulio Clovio, whose like many notable Slavic ie. Croatian people from Dalmatia (ex-Venice territory) Italians tried to preempt from Croatians. The change of article name to Italian is only because which is more widespread, example like in the case of Croatian nobleman Nikola Zrinski, whose article is named in Hungarian Miklós Zrínyi.
The previous POV, mostly supported by lack of knowledge of history and personal names and surnames in Slavic regions under influence of Italization (he used as an example Simeone Gliubich, where "ch" clear indicates Slavic "ić", and "Gliubi" does not mean anything in Italian, while "Ljubić" derives from Slavic root "ljub-" (-iti, "kissing"; -av, "love"), by user Theirrulez was not accepted by other editors. He argued that Vrančić was "Venetian..., his family was Venetian Dalmatian ancestry, Venetian language speaking with a secondary branch moved to Hungary", which is a total inventing and revision of history. Discussing his Italian ethnicity is just ridiclious, while if he declared as a Croat is another matter, but same can be said about e.g. Leonardo da Vinci. Find me a reputable and reliable historical source that states he declared as an Italian. Currently I don't know how and neither have sources (even interest) at hand that will prove his Croatian ethnicity, beside common knowledge that among South Slavic nations Faust Vrančić is considered exclusively as a Croat. It's a matter of geographical, cultural and religious sphere that are built ethnic identifications among ex-Yugoslav nations.
For now find the compromise more than fine.--Crovata (talk) 11:54, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't claim he was Italian and I don't intend to. This would be exactly as wrong as claiming that he was Croatian. Silvio1973 (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't said you claim that, and claiming him as Croatian would not be as wrong as claiming that he was an Italian. Otherwise we are dealing with ignorance and historical revisionism. Besides, the surname Veranzio is Italianized form of Vrančić, which derives from South Slavic word for bird vrana (corvus, crow).--Crovata (talk) 12:34, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it looks that the reached consensus did not prove very useful. An IP address has changed the article to a consensual version and an administrator has frozen the article to a version modified by an obscure IP user. Silvio1973 (talk) 16:00, 18 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Consensus" is not PROOF. 100 ignorant idiots can have consensus on something and that does not mean that they are right.
The historical record of which you are clearly ignorant, shows that the family originated in Bosna and the vast majority of noble families of Bosna were ethnic Croats. ZidarZ (talk) 21:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why would he even be Italian? Italy and Croatia didn′t exist at that time, yes, but he was born in present-day Croatia. He was born in the Republic of Venice, not Italy. So he is a Croat and he can be Venetian, but he definitely can′t be Italian by any standard. He wasn't born in Italy, even present-day Italy, Italy didn't exist in that time and he never said that he was Italian, Italian people didn't exist, Croatian people did, and he didn′t speak Italian. He can′t be Italian, and he is a Croat. --46.188.177.44 (talk) 16:16, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, let me explain something to all the future readers of such misinformation of yours. Fausto Veranzio is culturally Italian: he received Italian education since childhood and went to an Italian University. "Veranzio's masterwork, Machinae Novae (Venice 1615 or 1616), contained 49 large pictures depicting 56 different machines, devices, and technical concepts. Two variants of this work exist, one with the "Declaratio" in Latin and Italian, the other with the addition of three other languages. Only a few copies survived and they often do not present a complete text in all the five languages. This book was written in Italian, Spanish, French and German". If Italy were the US, he would be "naturalized Italian", but luckily Italians have a different mindset. On what objective basis can someone claim "Italian people didn't exist, Croatian people did"? He didn't speak Italian? All credibility was lost in that sentence. So funny seeing people speaking of revisionism at the expense of Croatians. What about the specious and shameless claims on the Croatian origins of Marco Polo? On the contrary, as an Italian I see nothing wrong with Lagrange being called Italian-French. Why should someone be offended by the Italian component of Veranzio cultural identity? I will soon expand the educational and cultural background of Veranzio on the page, which seems to have very little content. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8471174/Italians-furious-as-Croatia-lays-claim-to-Marco-Polo.html --TriangoloDiTartaglia (talk) 20:54, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Culturally Italian"? What does that mean?
Ponder this - I am a citizen of Canada but I am an ethnic Croat.
My ethnicity trumps my citizenship - as I believe it does for most people.
Question for TriangoloDiTartaglia, "Why should someone be offended by the Croatian foundation of Vrančić cultural identity?" ZidarZ (talk) 21:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the supposed "consensus"?
All I see it more "Italians" claiming Faust than there are Croats but that is natural because there are almost 60 million Italians and only 4 million Croats. ZidarZ (talk) 21:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As of August 29, 2023, Google Search results
for "Faust Vrančić" gets "About 70,300 results"
for "Fausto Veranzio" gets "About 20,600 results" ZidarZ (talk) 00:40, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why are people that are ignorant of Croatian history trying to teach us Croatian history?
Is this a case of ethnic appropriation? Possibly anti-Croatian racism? I find it rather odd that a "non-Croat" wants to tell us Croats who is and who is not a Croat. Silvio1973 has interesting logic - if you cannot prove to me that Vrančić was Croatian, then he is not Croatian, and by default by the use of an Italian sounding name.
First - While Italy did not exist at that time, Croatia, Dalmatian and Slavonia did exist. Croatia first existed as a Duchy from June 7, AD 879, and as a kingdom from AD 925. Before Venice conquered Šibenik it was a Dalmatian city and Dalmatians were, as they are today, primarily ethnic Croats. Just because Venice ruled over Šibenik does not mean that everyone became an ethnic Venetian. Many Croats were born in the Venetian cities of Šibenik, Trogir and Split and are recognized as Croats and not Venetians.
Second - The Vrančić family was ethnic CROATS. The Vrančić family came from Bosnia. During the Ottoman conquest of Bosna, while most Croatian nobles of Bosna were killed, the family fled, first to Croatia but due to ongoing Ottoman attacks they moved south to Dalmatia, to Sibenik. Originally, the name of the family was recorded as Wranychyth, later changed to Wranchyth, then to the Venetian-sounding Veranchythra (because Sibenik was a city conquered by the Venetians), then Veranchyth, and later the Latin Verancius.
- reference for the Bosnian origins is a letter from Kaiser Maximilian re-issuing the family crest - Verancsics (Vrančić), Antal (Antun) (1860). "Monumenta Hungariae historica. Magyar törtenelmi emlekek ..." (in Latin). Pest. pp. 360–372. ZidarZ (talk) 21:22, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let me end this debate with FACTS
On October 5, 1559, Antun Vrančić (uncle of Vrančić) wrote to Hasan Beg:
"... Litterae Vestrae Magnificae dominationis nobis pergratae fuerunt, quibus oblationem eius bonae vicinitatis nobis ostendit, maxime ob propinquitatem nostrae nationis Croatae, unde et nos natos, et dominationem Vestram Magnificam promanasse magnopere gratulamur. Si quidem nihil aeque nobis charum esse potest, quam si quos ex genere nostro propinquos nobis esse contingat, eorum bona et optata fruamur vicinitate; quod certe imprimis de Vestra Magnifica dominatione intelligere et sentire vellemus, cuius non modo Croatici generis propinquitas, sed ipsius loci vicinitas grata multo magis esset, si pro eo voto nostro, quod magnopere de Eius amicitia speraremus, mutua bona ..."
Antun Vrančić clearly identifies himself as a Croat, as is Hasan Beg, and that this beings them close together.
Source: "Monumenta Hungariae historica" 2. osztály, Irók, Volumes 19-20, by Magyar tudományos akadémia történelmi bizottmány, 1868. ZidarZ (talk) 22:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's clearly that he is not Italian. He had wrote his opinion about his nationality,it's signs on Šibenik cathedral, this is in Croatian:»...iznimno je lijepa i neobična oblika, pa sam je htio, kao ures svoje domovine, uvrstiti ovamo među svoja nova otkrića...«. This is translation:"It is very nice and unusual shape, so I wanted, like decoration of my fatherland, place here in my new discoveries". And his surname clearly isn't Italian. His parents were Croatian nobilities. So?

Descendants of Vrančić family thru a female line are still in existence. It's a Draganić-Vrančić family. Maybe we should ask them about ethnicity of the family since they have a family records and an archive. Walter9 (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dreadnought123 (talk) 17:16, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Accuracy, tone, POV[edit]

As it stands the article makes claims outside what might be found in more detailed references, e.g. the parachute and windmill can be contradicted simply by using those wikipedia articles as a starting point. There is, as noted above, a needless nationalism. Much of it appears to have been translated. The tone seems a bit…enthusiastic? Qwirkle (talk) 00:33, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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