Talk:Ferdinand Hérold

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"which had never been done before"[edit]

What a ridiculous statement. This article is written in very poor English. Reads like a translation. Needs thorough sub-editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 08:57, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

four piano concertos[edit]

I am not an Hérold expert. I there someone who could be more specific concerning the four piano concertos? — Robert Greer (talk) 22:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Acute accent?[edit]

I am preparing a modest overhaul of the article but I was brought up short almost before I got started by this, from the only full-length biography I can find of the composer (by Arthur Pougin, 1906): "Je ferai remarquer ici que, à l'encontre de l'habitude prise, le nom d'Herold doit s'écrire sans accent: Herold, et non Hérold" – "I will point out here that, contrary to customary practice, the name of Herold must be written without an accent: Herold, and not Hérold". The biographer gives no explanation, but I see that Grove faithfully follows his precept, though no other work of reference does, as far as I can see – including Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians, The International Encyclopedia of Dance, The Oxford Dictionary of Dance, The Oxford Dictionary of Music, The Oxford Companion to Music and the English and French Wikipedia, all of whom call the composer Hérold. But Google maps street view shows that the Parisian authorities (who include the diacriticals in e.g. the rue Molière and rue de la Bûcherie) are with M. Pougin (and Grove). I'd be glad of views on this: do we go with the (correct?) minority or the (incorrect? but familiar) majority? Yours, puzzled of Islington. Tim riley talk 16:31, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We go by common name even if wrong (and sometimes I hate that, remember A Boy was Born?). All other Wikipedias, including French, have the accent. I'd add a footnote. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Gerda (é and note). I notice btw that FH's son, the senator, seems to have spelt his name with the é.--Smerus (talk) 17:15, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oops - 2nd thoughts - I looked up his original publications on IMSLP (e.g. here and here - and here is a manuscript with signature lacking an accent) - they are all without acute accent. So now, if it was me, I'd use no accent in the title and add a note on the accent.--Smerus (talk) 17:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these thoughts. I think I can see a way to combine both possibilities reasonably satisfactorily, and will seek further views when I've knocked my draft into shape. (I see the French Wikipédia page on the street named after the composer says, but alas without citation, that his Alsatian name was generally spelled without an accent in the 19th century, and that the official nomenclature of the city of Paris has retained that usage, though with a certain inconsistency in places.) – Tim riley talk 12:07, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The view of the street plate in Google shows the name written in capitals, which may explain why there is no accent. But Google's map itsel shows the street name with the accent. And, as mentioned here, one of the vice-presidents of the French Society for Music Theory is named Hérold, with the accent (see [[1]]. I don't know whether she is a descendant of Ferdinand (I could ask her), but she is Alsacian. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 15:07, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would be most interesting to know your friend's thoughts on the matter. (The all-caps don't affect the matter as the street signs for, e.g., the RUE MOLIÈRE and RUE DE LA BÛCHERIE are given their accents.) Tim riley talk 18:37, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion[edit]

After pondering the above, I've tried to combine the two approaches, dealing with the accent at the outset and then going with the usual accented form, thus:

Louis Joseph Ferdinand Herold^{[n 1]} (28 January 1791 – 19 January 1833), better known as Ferdinand Hérold (pronounced [fɛʁdinɑ̃ eʁɔld]), was a French composer. He was celebrated in his lifetime for his operas, but also wrote many pieces for the piano, orchestra, and the ballet. He is best known today for the ballet La Fille mal gardée and the overture to the opera Zampa. Born in Paris to a musical family, Hérold trained ...

With this footnote (all duly cited, of course)

^ According to his biographer, Arthur Pougin, the composer's name is correctly spelled "Herold", with no acute accent. The Bibliothèque nationale de France uses that spelling, as does the city of Paris in the naming of the street containing the composer's birthplace. The current (2001) edition of Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians likewise follows Pougin's precept, but, as Pougin acknowledged, the spelling "Hérold" became customary: modern works of reference including Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians, The International Encyclopedia of Dance, The Oxford Dictionary of Dance, The Oxford Dictionary of Music and The Oxford Companion to Music spell the name "Hérold".

Will this wash? Glad of comments. Tim riley talk 13:56, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There being no adverse comments, I'll be bold and post a new version. Tim riley talk 12:34, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Chouqet[edit]

Should that be Choquet? 99.229.116.186 (talk) 18:57, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It should indeed (mea culpa) and is now changed throughout. Thank you for pointing it out! Tim riley talk 19:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[name-1] According to his biographer, Arthur Pougin, the composer's name is correctly spelled "Herold", with no acute accent. The Bibliothèque nationale de France uses that spelling, as does the city of Paris in the naming of the street containing the composer's birthplace. The current (2001) edition of Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians likewise follows Pougin's precept, but, as Pougin acknowledged, the spelling "Hérold" became customary: modern works of reference including Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians, The International Encyclopedia of Dance, The Oxford Dictionary of Dance, The Oxford Dictionary of Music and The Oxford Companion to Music spell the name "Hérold".

[n 1]