Talk:Fikret Abdić

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Neutrality[edit]

OK, this is NOT neutral. I don't even know where to begin with the problems.

OK, then I'll remove tag until you find out what's wrong with the article. --Ante Perkovic 23:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

-I thought it'd be blatantly obvious, but I gueuss I got to go through it all. This reads like a propaganda booklet from one of his supporters (and very well could be.) Let's break it down:

"Cazinska Krajina, centered in the town of Velika Kladusa, in the far northwest corner of Bosnia, was once the most prosperous and peaceful region in Bosnia, in spite of the constant warfare that has bedeviled the region since the breakup of Yugoslavia. For this was the home base of Fikret Abdic, the remarkable and well-loved local entrepreneur who rose from nothing to become the country's biggest industrialist: it was Abdic who transformed a poor area into a highly profitable center of industry through his company, Agrokomerc."

I'd like to see some sources as if this actually is the most peaceful region of Bosnia and some evidence that it was all because of him that it became as such. The fact is, I don't know, but I do know this could be reworded better.

"Persecuted by the Yugoslav Communists, who naturally resented a successful entrepreneur"

Yeah, no loaded words here.

"Abdic beat out President Alija Izetbegovic – although the latter was mysteriously declared the "winner.""

"Fikret Abdić won the popular vote for president among the Muslim candidates, with 44% of the vote, Izetbegović closely behind with 37%. According to the Bosnian constitution, the first two candidates of each of the three constitutient nations would be elected to a seven-member multi-ethnic rotating presidency (with two Croats, two Serbs, two Muslims and one Yugoslav); a Croat took the post of prime minister and a Serb the presidency of the Assembly. Abdić agreed to stand down as the Muslim candidate for the Presidency and Izetbegović became President with the support of the Bosnian Serb leadership."

Nothing mysterious there.

More to come. - BRTD "


Uh huh. He only went to do what was best for his people with no personal interest. Maybe some believe that, but that's hardly NPOV.

"In Balkan Odyssey, Lord Owen, the British diplomat, described him as "forthright, confident and different from the Sarajevan Muslims. He was in favor of negotiating and compromising with Croats and Serbs to achieve a settlement, and scathing about those Muslims who wanted to block any such settlement.""

Textbook example of using "weasel words"

"As one Abdic supporter succinctly put it: "Alija Izetbegovic is the best President of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Fikret Abdic is the best thief and biggest desserter of Bosnian people.""

More weasel words.

"The Bosnian Army launched a deadly offensive against Abdic on June 10, 1994, and they were joined by their newfound allies, the Croats. The Bosnian 5th Corps attacked Velika Kladusa.

Perhaps atrocities did happen, but we need citations.

Perhaps the desire by the media to oversimply things might've been one reason for it being ignored, but we can rephrase this better, and maybe look at other reasons (such as that these atrocities paled next to the ones committed in Srebenica and Sarajevo

"The Croatian government has given in to the ICTFY's pressure, and is sending some of their military leaders, who are widely viewed as heroes in their own country, to the Hague. According to the Institute for War and Peace Reporting: "The authorities in Croatia are arresting innocent Serbs to diffuse nationalist anger over the detention of Croat war crimes suspects." A few months ago, after Croatia arrested several of their own military personnel on "war crimes" charges, they also arrested eighteen Croatian Serbs. The men declared their innocence, and began a hunger strike, at which time Yugoslav President Kostunica accused Croatia of violating their human rights."

Completely irrelevant.


Rhetorical questions do not belong in encyclopedia articles.

The article is also missing basic facts, such as his early life, current status, age, etc.

-BRTD

What was with Abdic's army being in front of Bihac? What was with ammo supplies which were left to serve 5.corp by their conquest of Velika Kladusa? What is happening to Agrokomerc today???? Izetbegovic's brethren, his party's members are robbing it??????????? Will anyone explain that???

Image copyright[edit]

User:Zlatko uploaded the photo Image:Abdic.jpg claiming "Self-made" and GFDL (LOL). I tracked the source and filled in [1] Non-free media rationale, but I'm not certain whether it satisfies our policy. Can anyone shed some light please? Duja► 07:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral sources[edit]

One of tha biased sources is Joksimović's column which doesn't containt the claim placed in the article (Joksimović at Serbianna.com), and Joksimović is well know by its anti-muslim statements. So it is not the best kind of source here, because this article is related to Serbs and Bosniaks, so we should use neutral sources, not written by Serbs, neither by Bosniaks. Grandy Grandy 14:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The International Strategic Studies Association is a reliable and respected body. Just because you personally dislike what it has to say does not make it factually incorrect. Hereward77 20:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is not about ISSA, it is about the author: (Joksimović at Serbianna.com), well known by its anti-muslim statements. Stop pushing POV here. This topic is related to Serbs, and radical Serb propaganda about their "enemies" is not a good source for the topic which involves Serbs and their "enemies". Neutral sources should be used per WP:RS. This is just silly, because your "fact" is based on a sentence (precisely two words) not even related to the topic. Grandy Grandy 19:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is about the ISSA because it is the source. The ISSA is respected American think-tank that just happens to have an ethnic Serb among its team of analysts. Is that a crime? The fact that the author is sympathetic to Abdic, a Muslim, rather proves that he isn't "anti-Muslim". I'd say the only person filled with hatred here is you. Hereward77 22:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nice exercise in personal attacks, boys. Now, could you please take the debate to the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia article, as it's hardly pertaining to Abdić personally, especially the quote from an unnamed person. Duja► 12:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mine was a statement of fact, he hates people like you Duja. Perhaps you should get your priorities right, Wikipedia should not submit to the CNN version of history. The quote is pertinent because it illustrates the political divisions within the Bosniak community. Izetbegovic led a political-religious faction within the community, he did not represent all Muslims. Hereward77 15:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I originally wrote most of the article, I'm fairly sure there exists a direct statement from an Abdić's interview somewhere among the refs or x-links, with a similar meaning. It would probably be better to use it instead, not because the ISSA is disputed as a source, but because it would provide his own opinions on the issue. I gotta run now, but I'll try to find it tomorrow if I find some time.
As for the "mujaheddin" thingo, I'm ambivalent. I've witnessed it used a lot as a joker for extra- and intra-Wikipedian Serbo-Bosnian propagandistic arguments, especially in the context of recent War on Terror. There certainly were foreign mujaheddins in the Bosnian War; how significant their role actually was is subject of a dispute (and POV-pushing). Offhand, I'd categorize their persistent mentioning in the articles under WP:UNDUE but I'm not overly knowledgeable on the issue, admittedly.
As for Grandy Grandy (talk · contribs), I've just check his contribs before, found nothing particularly problematic, and I'm inclined to WP:AGF at the moment, although he's hardly a brand new user. Duja► 15:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dr. Yossef Bodansky, Director of the US Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, is the best on the subject. Bodansky has written many articles and his books Offensive in the Balkans (1995) and Some Call It Peace (1996) expose widespread Islamic terrorist operations in the Balkans. So far, nobody has adequately countered Dr. Bodansky's research. Hereward77 16:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously you are not here to improve articles, but to push your/Yossef's POV, which is not related to this article, by the way. Grandy Grandy 13:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just because CNN never mentioned it, does not mean it didn't happen. Bodansky is a respected analyst. Hereward77 22:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality[edit]

Timouctou, where is the problem with nationality? --Wüstenfuchs 10:46, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Forget about it... I wasn't aware of the fact that he acctualy run for Bosniak member of the Presidency, who must be a Bosniak, says the Constitution. --Wüstenfuchs 14:53, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are confusing ethnicity and nationality again. Never did he say he was a Croat, and the only source you have for that claim is a) rather vague, and b) neither Bosnian nor Croatian. Furthermore, where's the source saying his religion is "Sunni Muslim"? Timbouctou (talk) 01:05, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Serbian state television is reliable and neutral source on the question, the good reason for that is because they are "neither Bosnian nor Croatian". Many sources also published that "after the war" Abdić declared himself a Croat and eventually he gained the citizenship. As for my "confusion" of nationality - see the article about the subject. The nationality is considered ethnicity in number of cases even in English language (in Croatian we all know what nacionalnost or narodnost means). About his faith, all Bosnian Muslims are Sunnis, that is, those who are Muslims by faith. I think that Abdić isn't an agnostic or atheist... but whatever, not important anyway. --Wüstenfuchs 11:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In the English language there is a distinction between "Croat" vs. "Croatian" and "Serb" vs. "Serbian". We don't have that distinction in our language, hence your (and Serbian TV's) confusion. Also, a person does not need to switch his or hers ethnic self-description to be eligible for citizenship, i.e. Abdić could have been given a Croatian passport for any number of reasons, regardless of his ethnicity. As for religion, you would need a source in which he subject described himself as a Muslim, especially if he is still alive. We don't let third parties determine somebody's religion as it is a personal issue. So you just keep on jumping to conclusions. Timbouctou (talk) 11:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But you haven't seen the lede of the nationality article. I know there is a difference between "Croat" and Croatian". His daughter is also a Croat, so he probably did declared himself as a Croat, as source says. And the Serbian TV was probably speaking about ethnicity/nationality (not citizenship). --Wüstenfuchs 12:04, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, his daughter is not a Croat and neither is he. Timbouctou (talk) 18:45, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree he isn't, see the beginning of the discussion. But his daughter acctualy is, beside the source I provided, the Constitution says that Croat representatives in the Parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina acctualy must be Croats [The House of Peoples shall comprise 15 Delegates, two-thirds from the Federation (including five Croats and five Bosniacs) and one-third from the Republika Srpska (five Serbs)"]. --Wüstenfuchs 19:02, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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