Talk:Flag of England/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Genoa

This mildly incomprehensible snippet was added:

The Saint George flag, a red cross on white fund, was adopted by England and the Town of London in 1190 for the direct English ships toward the Mediterranean one so that they could be protected by the Genoese fleet. For this privilege, the English monarch was paying an annual tax to the Genova Doge

Thank god at least someone knows where it came from.

Could we see a source, please? - Montréalais 18:26, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

White Dragon Flag

As discussed at length on the England page, it should probably be noted somewhere on this page that the predecessor to this flag was probably the Anglo-Saxon 'white dragon' flag, phased out after the Norman Conquest.White43 19:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Metnions of this flad have been removed per Talk:England. The flad does not hold enough significance (historic, modern or otherwise), nor is it verifiable as it's reference was not a reliable source. The website cited does not cite it's sources and was largely ethnocentric original research. Jhamez84 21:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Image:Flag_of_England_(bordered).svg —vs— Image:Flag_of_England.svg

Hi - I've been trying to go through various articles and (mainly) templates to see if Image:Flag_of_England_(bordered).svg should replace Image:Flag_of_England.svg - it's very time-consuming as I don't have any special software like popups or know how to program a bot. If anyone does, please could you give me a hand - thanks!! — superbfc [ talk | cont ] — 01:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

DONE — superbfc [ talk | cont ] — 00:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


Merge St George's Cross with Flag of England

It seems that these cover almost identical subject matter, and may be accidental duplicates. I suspect newcomers get confused as to where to add new material. As neither article cites its references or sources, a merge would be an opportunity to put all the improvement effort in one place. Non-English uses of the flag, such as in the Royal Navy, ought to be fully covered, whatever the title of the merged article. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 19:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

yay

  • Since the Flag of England is called the St George cross it'd make sence. Merge them together and create a one long article about the history and myths of the St George. Including it's decline after 1707.

R johnson 12:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


I suggest the opposite, to merge the "Flag of England" with the St George's cross article and give it that name "St George's cross". Since there were other institutions that used that cross for symbol (like Lombardy at some point). And although often associated to England this is not exactly an "English flag" copyright. Matthieu 13:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Matthieu - the St. George's Cross is not the flag of England, but the flag of England is the St. George's Cross. The article on SGC needs to be expanded more to cover the non-English usage to justify its own status. Then, the Flag of England article should be revised so it is about the various flags that are used to represent the English, and of course primarily that being the St. George's Cross with appropriate section and wikilink to the appropriate artcle — superbfc [ talk | cont ] — 20:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe the following:

1) The Flag of England deserves a page devoted uniquely to itself.

2) Merging The Flag of England (FoE) with The St. George's Cross would not be satisfactory whatever the page was called, either the Flag of England would not have its own page (like the article for Duck being found as a subsection of the Bird article), or people looking for information on The St. George's Cross would find it in The Flag of England page (like the article for Bird being found in the article for Duck).

The only way out of this seems to have a disambiguation page where people who look up the St. George's Cross are presented with a choice between the two articles. The material in the St. George's Cross that relates to the FoE is therefore reduced, with an accompanying link to the FoE artcile. I personally ended up on the St. George's Cross page when I really wanted to be on the FoE page :-) Gantlord 23:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, the St George's cross comes in forms not related to a flag (like an actual cross), and has a history outside the history of England. I vote we drop the notion of merging them. edwardfortune 23:20, 20 Feb 07 GMT

I've removed this suggestion. The St George's cross serves various purposes and each place should have a flag article, whether or not it happens to share its flag. Haddiscoe 13:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Proportions

The Cross has proportions of 3:5

Isn't this meant to be "The flag has proportions of 3:5"?

(Although I believe there may not, in fact, be any "official" proportions, the flag as it currently displays on this page appears to have proportions of 1:2, which looks wrong.)

As for the width of the arms of the cross, I believe this should be 1/5th of the height of the flag. -- Picapica 12:32, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In addition to the proportion of the flag area, a note could be applied to the height of the cross, as I was told in boy scouts all flags cannot be vertically symmetric as to surrender you turn your flag upside down, indeed my own flag has a cross slightly longer on the bottom stalk than the top. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.74.137 (talk) 17:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Hawaii

Does Hawaii really belong amongst the examples of use outside England? All the other examples employ the St George's Cross as an element in its own right rather than simply as a component of the Union Jack. Binabik80 (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Sun Campaign

I don't think that a recent opportunistic campaign by the Sun newspaper should form one of the four things an encyclopedia says about the 800 years of history of the English flag.

I also found it fascinating that said newspaper sought to suggest that people display the flag not for some good, positive reason but rather because to do so might have the advantage of upsetting someone ("PC brigade", foreigners, asylum seekers etc.).

Moreover, they speak out against the 'silliness' of claims that flags pose a health and safety risk and the prohibition by Age Concern of people taking home-made cakes to day centres, saying they infringe our liberty. At the same time they are at the front of the queue in calling for State suppression of individual freedom through the National Identity Register. --Ross UK 22:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted it due to the use of swearing. Only the far right are trying to question ethnic minorities patriotism. Sure some might fail the cricket test, but i think most are embarrassed by these sort of stories.195.93.21.1 20:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The Sun is clearly a right-wing paper, however I do agree that The Sun should not be mentioned in this article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.195 (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

True origins of the England flag

The England flag was originally the flag of the Catholic Church in Rome, when William of Normandy wanted to invade in 1066 he went to the Pope for his blessing stating that King Harold was not of the faith and the Pope agreed, William brought the flag of the Church across in 1066 and won the battle, the flag has been used ever since. Read the historical accounts. Don't just guess! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bestzona (talk • contribs) 09:13, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Really? Then why isn't it shown prominently on the Bayeux tapestry? And the Norman invasion of England precedes the first Crusade by thirty years. If such "historical accounts" exist, then you should have no problem providing citations for them... AnonMoos (talk) 11:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Other flags incorporating the flag of England

I have removed the flag of British Columbia as this incorporates the Union Flag, not the flag of England.

Yes, it could be argued that by virtue of St George's cross being part of the Union Flag it is there, but I think there is already enough confusion in certain quarters between England/Britain/UK without muddying the issue further here. The other flags shown - Montreal, Ontario, etc are much better examples.

Personally, I think the flag of St Helena needs to be removed too. I've left it in for now, since technically the English flag is there (the Ensign being flown on the ship on the arms), but it's virtually impossible to see, even on a large screen.

Petecollier (talk) 23:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Flag care

There are no mentions to flag care, such as when you deem the flag to beyond use, you burn it and how to fold the flag up at the end of the day. Flangemonkey (talk) 13:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

There's a lot of that sort of thing associated with the flag of the United States, but I don't think there is any such code set out for the English flag. --DWRtalk 18:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Correct. There is no flag code per se as there is in the US. Military ceremony aside, there is no particular way to fold the flag when it is struck, and when it's beyond use, just throw it away and buy a new one. Old regimental colours on the other hand will quite often end up hanging in churches, and many centuries-old examples can be seen across the country. Petecollier (talk) 23:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Three Lions

Shouldn't there be mention of the Three Lions flag. Whilst this is not the official flag of England, my understanding is that was once (albiet for a short time), and later was incorporated as a symbol of England via the Coat of arms of England. I think it should have a mention, though I'm no expert in the field and may be mistaken. Jhamez84 15:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

When was this an official flag?83.67.75.213 09:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I'm unsure, as I'm not a historian. But as I say I believe it was the middle ages, specifically either during or following the reign of Richard I of England. I'm hoping someone familiar with the issue can confirm/elaborate as to if this is the case or not. Jhamez84 17:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The red flag with three golden lions has never been a flag of England, it is a royal banner (the representation on a flag of a coat of arms), and was the personal 'flag' of the Kings of England from 1198-1340. Arms of other dominions were incorporated over time, but the three lions have remained part of the royal and later the state arms to the present day. See coat of arms of England. Petecollier (talk) 23:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

County Flags

How about including all the county flags that include The Flag of England on it in the page? I know that the Suffolk and East Anglia flags but I'm not sure if theres anymore (but I'm sure there are). The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 12:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Legal Status

It´s not clear to me from this article what the legal staus of the "Flag of England" actually is. Is it (or was it ever) recognised in law as the official national flag of England? (And what is the legal status of England itself?) Shulgi (talk) 21:16, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

For a long time, not even the Union Jack was recognized in law as the official national flag of the UK. Before the 19th century, in most countries there wasn't all that much occasion for the use of national flags on land (as opposed to naval flags, merchant ensigns, and military banners). Even in the French revolution, cockades worn on tricorner hats were probably as important as tricolor flags... AnonMoos (talk) 23:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
If you want to see the status of England in law, you should take a look at Talk:United Kingdom as they answer the question there in the frequently asked questions bit. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Myths, myths, myths

"http://www.historytoday.com/marc-morris/slaying-myths-st-george-and-dragon" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Religious intolerance

No mention of the Political correctness surrounding the England flag. In England, there is ALOT of political correctness, believe me I was raised there.Tourskin 22:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I live in a major town in South East England. It is well known for its amount of Immigrants and Asian People. There have been cases in recent years of not being able to put England Flags up in certain areas near to where I live. This is to save any upset to the foreign people here. We are not encouraged to be British in England, Scotland and Wales, we are always reminded that our country/nation is no longer just full of British people. We are not encouraged to take pride as a nation anymore and it is all incase we upset the foreigners here. I personally have nothing against the multi-nationals that are here but I do have something against not being able to take pride in my own country. How can anybody expect a person to go against their own country and not be proud of it? When England are playing in the World Cup finals or we have a team thats doing well in something else, why shouldnt we want our England flags out and come together as a nation? It is very political here and the Goverment rule the roost and we are told how to think and act and how to think. -- 23:00, 11 June 2010 User:Pigboo

its bull to be honest, if foreigners find a countries flag offensive, they are finding that country offensive, and should not be living in that country. anyway this doesnt really have anything to do with the flag itself, and should not be mentioned in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.201.105 (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it has nothing to do with the article at all. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 18:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 July 2012

Section Royal Navy. Please delete sentence 'Should Great Britain be dissolved by Scottish independence, then the English Royal Navy will be obliged to revert to the flag of St George at the stern of all vessels, the Union flag being, from that time, obsolete. '

This is speculation with no citation - the future form of the UK, its armed forces and its flags after Scottish indpendence is unknown. Given that the sucessor state may consist of a union of Wales, England and Northern Ireland it may not choose to adopt the English Flag for its armed forces.

Andyl10 (talk) 22:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Done Any editor feel free to revert if a source is found. Danger! High voltage! 01:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Templar Flag?

It looks like Templar flag. Böri (talk) 11:41, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

It's just a plain simple red cross on white ("Argent, a cross gules"). It certainly was used by some Crusaders, but any specific Templar connection would have to be supported by evidence. Anyway, the Templars were defunct for centuries when the flag was fully officially adopted as the flag (or ensign) of England (16th century). AnonMoos (talk) 14:58, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Kings of England: Henry I, Henry II, Richard I & John; Weren't they "the Templars"? Böri (talk) 09:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
I don't understand your question. AnonMoos (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
In response to Bori, no the Templars were the Christian knights as one of the Knights Templar who protected Pilgrims and fought during the time of the Crusades. As for if the Kings were Templars, I doubt it because as one of the vows that Templars had to take was that they couldn't touch any woman which as king of a country, would not be smart if you want to maintain your lineage. Also they had to give everything they owned to the Order which would have basically given England to the Papacy so I think that's a definate no on if they were Templars. Richard may have fought alongside Templars but almost definatly was not one of them. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:37, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It is historically derived from a crusader flag, like essentially all flags with crosses in Europe and in former European colonies. The choice of red seems to be a coincidence which happened in the Second Barons' War, but the truth is probably that nobody knows why it ended up as a red cross on white. The Genoa story seems to be spurious, but even if true, the flag of Genoa is just another incarnation of the same crusader flag. The flag became fixed in the mid 14th century, and it seems to have referred above all to St George himself for the next 100 years. It was probably first used as a naval ensign in the 16th, or perhaps at the very end of the 15th century. The union flag was stiched together from such naval ensigns because it was itself a naval ensign by design, intended for Our subjects of South and North Britaine travelling by Seas. It seems to have been used on land as a war flag from the 18th century. Its nature as the de-facto national flag of the UK was first noted in 1908. There is no problem with using national flags simply by tradition, but in such cases it is impossible to name a date of "adoption". The Scottish flag was only "adopted" in any official sense in 2003(!). The English flag hasn't been at all. Its popular use seems to arise around 1930, but this needs more research. Its widespread use today developed in the 1990s. Before 1990 or so, it seems you had to be either a vexillologist or a cranky nationalist if you understood the term "flag of England" to mean anything other than the Union flag. --dab (𒁳) 14:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Derived from the flag of Genoa

This story exists and should be documented, even if spurious. Apparently the George's Cross has been derived form an alleged treaty of the English king with Genoa at the time of the Third Crusade to have English ships sail under the Genoese flag (which at that time may possibly already have had the red-on-white cross). Now Perrin 1922 is an excellent source on British Flags, and he discusses the Genoese flag extensively, but not because of its supposed role as the origin of the English one but because he wants to argue that Genoa invented the concept of the "national flag". If Perrin had any evidence of this Genoese-English transmission, I am sure he would mention it. So it seems more likely that the story arose after 1922. Three open questions,

  • what is the first mention of this theory?
  • is it true that English ships sailed under the Genoese flag in the 12th century?
  • if so, what evidence is there that this fact is related to the choice of the red cross for St George (who was, to be sure, the patron of Genoa) by Edward I around 1280 (i.e. nearly 100 years later and detached from the naval context)?

I am also interested in any depiction of St George wearing a red cross predating 1400. We know the red cross was used for St George by the 1340s at the latest, but the earliest depiction of the saint with it dates to 1430. --dab (𒁳) 15:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 April 2012

In the introduction, the sentence: "Saint George became the patron saint of England in the thirteenth century...." is misleading. "became" should be replaced by "was adopted as", because the original wording suggests that "St George" was an active participant in the process. Gravyb (talk) 20:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Already done. --Tyrannus Mundi (talk) 19:52, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

More to the point, this didn't happen in the 13th century. Arguably in the 14th, but explicitly only by the 15th. --dab (𒁳) 15:23, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Clear 15th century illustration

In a ca. 1470 manuscript of Jean Froissart's Chronicles in the British Library, there's an illustration of the priest John Ball on a horse encouraging Wat Tyler's rebels, which very clearly and distinctly shows two St. George's cross flags and two banners of the Plantagenet coat of arms of England. This could be a good illustration for this article, but I'm having difficulty finding a suitable image of it... AnonMoos (talk) 16:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

What I've found so far... AnonMoos (talk) 06:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Also File:DeathWatTylerFull.jpg... AnonMoos (talk) 08:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Better image found (File:John Ball encouraging Wat Tyler rebels from ca 1470 MS of Froissart Chronicles in BL.jpg) will be adding it to page... AnonMoos (talk) 01:04, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Possibly even earlier image

ca. 1400?

Don't think it's better than the one above, but possibly earlier... AnonMoos (talk) 16:01, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


Sporting Events confusion

"Before 1996, most of the flags waved by supporters were Union Flags (it is now arguable that this situation has now reversed).[23]"

Union Flags now wave supporters of England? I'm guessing what is meant is that since 1996 England Fans at sporting events wave the St. Georges rather than the Union flag. But that sentence is confusing and... awkward at best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8108:1CC0:11D4:55F6:616B:9E2:7A94 (talk) 20:46, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

United Kingdom

England is not a "region" of the United Kingdom. The UK is a State. England is a country and a nation. Philip Baird Shearer 18:24, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

England is not a country by any international yard stick. It is a region of the UK. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries#E

What about, to pick one example out of a hat, international sporting conventions, where England is recognised as a country? You don't see "Texas" or "Tuscany" entering the World Cup, do you? 92.21.75.13 (talk) 17:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

What has this got to do with the article in question? --DWRtalk 20:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
There is an interesting point here. There is genuine confusion around the World concerning the difference between England and the UK. England is most certainly a country (see Wikipedia article), but the UK is a Union of countries and represents those countries on the World stage. We participate in the Olympics as the UK, however FIFA recognises each member state of the UK. The UK has never fielded a football team at the olympics due to concerns that this would be used by FIFA to apply pressure to remove the English and Scottish FAs and force a single UK FA on the British Isles. Dbnull (talk) 02:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Minor correction, we don't compete in the Olympics as the UK, we compete as Great Britain. Northern Irish athletes may chose whether they want to compete for GB or the Republic of Ireland. Its a very strange concept, to be honest. --DWRtalk 16:44, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The English use the Union Jack as their national flag. The St George’s cross is the flag of the England football team and it has the word England on the red stripe in white. Anyway the English identify as British and their country is the UK, not England. England is the football team and Britain is the country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.48.66.76 (talk) 13:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The previous contributor is totally incorrect. The 2011 census actually demonstrated quite clearly that most people in England identify as 'English', and specifically do not identify as 'British':
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/rpt-ethnicity.html#tab-National-identity-in-England-and-Wales
Sorry, not strictly the main topic being discussed here, but needed to be corrected. Thanks. Brunanburh (talk) 04:52, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Natonalism

Isnt it quite obvious that nationalists use symbols of their country, like flags?? So I dont understand why there should be a long mention about nationalists (and far-right) using the English flag?. Surely french nationalists, like Front National use the french flag, but why I cant find a single mention about nationalists in the Flag of France page?? Regards --Ransewiki (talk) 06:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

First off, your summary line on your most recent article edit was way out of line -- and seemingly not all that intelligent -- since there's no way that when I made my article edit of "03:19, 13 August 2014" that I could consult your article talk page edit of "06:15, 13 August 2014", without having a crystal ball or a time machine. Secondly, some segments of the French ultra-right actually reject the French tricolor flag as a symbol of the hated French revolution. In the early 1870s, Henri, Count of Chambord turned down the opportunity to become monarch of a restored Kingdom of France because he couldn't stomach reigning under the tricolor flag, and as late as the 1920s, a significant percentage of the population of France was still basically unreconciled to the French revolution of more than a century before -- their dislike of it and most of what it stood for having been reinforced by more recent memories of the Dreyfus affair and the 1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State. Third, earlier far-right UK political movements generally waved the Union Jack, but far-right UK political movements of recent years (if in England) are just as likely to wave the flag of England. This is a meaningful shift which is a legitimate topic for Wikipedia. The section could be improved, but I don't see wholesale deletion as a helpful move towards improvement... AnonMoos (talk) 13:28, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Okay, France was just an example, surely flag of Russia or Spain doesnt include that obvious talk about nationalism? Besides the main French nationalist party (National Front) uses very much the French flag. Sorry if I was a bit rude, I get a little too easily annoyed sometimes. Regards --Ransewiki (talk) 20:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
The flag of England is not the flag of a current fully-independent and sovereign nation-state, so I'm not sure that there's much point in comparing this article in detail to articles such as "flag of France" (though that article does mention Henri, comte de Chambord). In any case, the "flag of Spain" article says The flag of the Second Republic, with the indigo strip, is often seen in rallies organized by those closely associated to the Spanish Communists or Republicans such as anti-NATO demonstrations, while the Flag of Northern Ireland article is almost entirely about politics, etc... AnonMoos (talk) 03:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
This is my first contribution so I apologise if I make any newbie mistakes. It's good to see the 'mid '90s' and 'sporting events' recognized as the resurgence of flying the cross of St. George, but I think you could be more specific. It was the European Championships of 1996, held in England (not the UK) and wherein England and Scotland were in the same group, that the cross of St.George was widely used for the first time - newspapers made available small versions which could be flown in car windows. The article is correct that before this (e.g. Italia 90) England football fans, almost without exception, carried Union flags. Insofar as nationalism/the far right is concerned I believe the article is back to front. The National Front, and, fairly obviously, the British National Party are/were unionist in their outlook and invariably carried the Union flag - look at photos/video of the 1970s, 80s and early 1990s and the Cross of St. George is virtually absent. Their recent flying of the Cross of St. George is as a result of the resurgence of a feeling of Englishness, as opposed to Britishness, among the general English population, which the far-right wish to capitalize on - it is the far-right who are jumping on the bandwagon to gain popularity, such that post-1996 we have the EDL rather than BDL.Jackethangs (talk) 15:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

(Un?)official sporting events

This wiki seems to be obsessed with incorrect usage of the word 'official'!

In the sporting events section, it is suggested that the word 'England' is "unofficially" added to the flag. How could it be unofficial to add text to a flag which already has no 'official' status?

Sort it out! Just put "with the name of England added", or something similar.

Christ sake!! --24.88.64.22 (talk) 23:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure how accurate the statement is. With football supporter's flags they usually use has the name of the town and or the club to which they are affiliated written on the flag. For example within a mile of the Den the flags carry the word Millwall—see here: -- PBS (talk) 14:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

English Commonwealth and English flag

Trial of Charles I in January 1649 -- the Cross of St George is clearly visible above the seated commissioners/judges

I have marked the following sentence as dubious:

The concept of a national flag, as opposed to royal banners, naval ensigns or military flags, developed in the late 18th century, following the American and French Revolutions.

The sentence was added asRevision as of 08:25, 24 April 2013 by Dbachmann

It always amazes me that so many of the English institutions like to send the Interregnum into oblivion it is as if the collective memory was successfully change by the Act of Oblivion.

The English Commonwealth used the Flag of St George as their National symbol. Example of which are the engraving at Charles I's trial there association between and the Cross of St George and England also see here for a copy of the Great Seal of England (1651)) which also includes the Cross of St George. One can not get more representative of an English state than that.

Charles II was crowned at Westminster on St George's day and here is a source celebrating the return of the King in 1660 showing a cross of St George on a flag.

"...the author has not been able to find any mention of the 'arms' or flag of St George in English earlier than the year 1277. ... "The cross of St George is definitely referred to in 1277 in circumstances that leave no doubt that it way then in use in England as a national emblem." (W.G. Perrin (1922) British Flags, pages 37–38) -- PBS (talk) 19:57, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

In the image above, it was used as shield (Argent, a cross Gules), not a flag. There's no doubt that the George's cross was a general national symbol, but the modern concept of a national flag (as opposed to a naval, military, or governmental flag) is that it's flown on land by ordinary people to express patriotism, and this concept was rather slow to develop and be recognized under law. In the U.K., the Union Jack has never been formally legally defined as a civilian flag for use on land, so it could be claimed that technically the U.K. still doesn't have a national flag... AnonMoos (talk) 10:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
AnonMoos you are mixing up nation with the concepts of state. For example are England and Scotland nations? -- PBS (talk) 10:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
How is that relevant in any way to your edit?? You may have a solid detailed knowledge of 17th-century English history, but if you're lacking in knowledge of flag concepts and history, then it still may be better for you not to mess with something you don't seem to fully understand... AnonMoos (talk) 07:13, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
P.S. I said basically the same thing above on this talk page on "23:40, 29 June 2010"... AnonMoos (talk) 07:19, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
It is relevant to my edit because we are sill discussing what I consider to be a dubious statement. Are we discussing the flags of state or nation? If it is the nation and not the state then why should there be laws about it? "that it's flown on land by ordinary people to express patriotism" This is not commonly done in England. See for example the comment on one person who did and is considered odd)[1]. For a Brit travelling to the United States, given the lack of national flags in England, it is strange and noticeable how many American have a flag in their garden for no particular reason.
Flags in England are flown primarily for three reasons: for sporting events which are a substitute for war (in England since the middle 1990s the Cross of Saint George -- befor that it tended to be the Union flag), for Royal events (where the Union flag is encouraged) and by some (such as churches on Saint Georges Day) -- it was big news when a Scottish Prime mister for political expediency encouraged the flying of the Cross of Saint George on government building as recently as 2008,[2] but the saint's day is not widely celebrated.[3]
But to go back to the flag and the nationalism. During the reformation of the 16th century the flying of saint flags was banned with the exception of St George. Clearly there were days such as saint days when saints flags were flown. If there was no tie up between the Cross of St George and English nationalism why was it exempted from the ban (W.G. Perrin (1922) British Flags, page 40)? -- PBS (talk) 11:22, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I have provided evidence that the cross of Saint George was very closely identified with the English Commonwealth, I have provided evidence that the Cross of Saint George was exempted from the ban on other saints' flags. What evidence do you have that "The concept of a national flag [in England], as opposed to royal banners, naval ensigns or military flags, developed in the late 18th century, following the American and French Revolutions." -- PBS (talk) 11:22, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm aware that different countries differ in their degree of "vexillolatry". However, "civilian flag on land" is still the working definition for a true national flag in the modern sense (as opposed to naval flags, military flags, and governmental flags). I don't think that England's subnational status since 1707 has much relevance to this. For one specific citation, Znamierowski's World Encyclopedia of Flags says "The first national flags on land appeared in the last quarter of the 18th century.." (ISBN 1-84309-042-2 p.8). By its nature, pre-1775 evidence about naval, military, and governmental flags, or governmental emblems, can't disprove this. AnonMoos (talk) 10:48, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
He is clear wrong as armies fight on land! How does he explain away the discouragement of flying any saint's flag but that of Saint George during the Tudor period (if it was not the habit to fly it as a religious and national symbol)? Also are you suggesting that on Charles II's coronation (which took place on St George’s Day, 23 April 1661) not one church was flying the Cross of Saint George? -- PBS (talk) 10:16, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
By definition, an army flag is not a "civilian flag on land"! There's no doubt that the Cross of St. George was a royal and national symbol of England in the 16th century and earlier, but it remains a fact that national flags in the modern sense barely existed before the late 18th century... AnonMoos (talk) 10:41, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
The quote you gave was "The first national flags on land appeared in the last quarter of the 18th century." hence he is wrong by your own stance as armies fight on land! What is your proof that "national flags in the modern sense barely existed before the late 18th century"? When the cross of Saint George was flown in Tudor period and was seen as a national flage and almost certainly flown at the coronation of Charles II? What do you mean by "national flags in the modern sense" What for example does modern mean? -- PBS (talk) 14:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Whatever, dude -- the original sentence under discussion was "The concept of a national flag, as opposed to royal banners, naval ensigns or military flags", and that's also what Znamierowski means, even if he doesn't bother to fully spell it out in that particular passage. AnonMoos (talk) 19:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

How do you know that is what he meant? There was no royal banner during the Commonwealth! What is your proof that "national flags in the modern sense barely existed before the late 18th century"? As you recognise it was the national symbol during the Commonwealth what makes you think it was restricted to shields and the great seal and not flown on flags other than those of the regiments of New Model Army? -- PBS (talk) 10:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

It's a simple fact that you did not catch Znamierowski in an inconsistency; rather, he didn't choose to run down the whole list (naval, military, royal, governmental) in that one particular passage that I happened to quote. You're welcome to peruse the indicated book yourself in search of further enlightenment, if you wish, but the fact remains that those who know most about flags choose to use "civilian flag on land" as the basic definition of a national flag in the modern sense, and that national flags defined in this way were scarce before the late 18th century. AnonMoos (talk) 06:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
What if anything did Alfred Znamierowski publish on the emblems of the English Commonwealth? -- PBS (talk) 15:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

What are the official colors?

The white is probably rgb(255,255,255). But is there an official shade of red (e.g. pantone or hexadecimal) for the cross part of the flag? --86.162.142.99 (talk) 17:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

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"Adopted: 1191"

Please read the article. It was never "adopted". It was a saint's flag among several in the 15th century. The other saints' flags were abolished in 1552, so from that time it just happened to be the only surviving saint's flag. It was apparently used as a naval flag for some time in the 16th century. It has no official status today. It was never "adopted" as the "national flag of England". Instead, it has just been occasionally remarked, since the 19th century, by various commentators, that it should be considered the national flag of England. This is not the same as positively "adopting" a flag. --dab (𒁳) 10:26, 20 December 2016 (UTC) ¨

There wasn't really a formal parliamentary act or royal decree, but if it was commonly flown by government ships, then the date on which it started being commonly flown by government ships could be considered its date of practical adoption... AnonMoos (talk) 20:46, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2019

Put in [[Category:Flags with crosses]], for obvious reasons. 86.180.244.8 (talk) 14:00, 18 February 2019 (UTC) comment edited by me to add nowiki tags around category link. NiciVampireHeart 00:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done with thanks, NiciVampireHeart 00:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

English Commonwealth and English flag (2)

see /Archive 1#English Commonwealth and English flag
see /Archive 1#Clear 15th century illustration

I have marked the following sentence as dubious:

The concept of a national flag, as opposed to royal banners, naval ensigns or military flags, developed in the late 18th century, following the American and French Revolutions.

The sentence was added asRevision as of 08:25, 24 April 2013 by Dbachmann

See the previous discussion at /Archive 1#English Commonwealth and English flag -- PBS (talk) 13:18, 7 September 2018 (UTC)


John Ball encouraging Wat Tyler rebels from c. 1470 MS of Froissart Chronicles in BL

Robert Colls when he was Professor of English History at the University of Leicester wrote:

During the British and Irish civil wars, the [Union] Jack took a buffeting. Against the Royal Standard, the English revolutionaries raised the red cross of St George (as the Peasants' Revolt had done in 1381). In 1649 Parliament declared it the English national flag. The Scots, meanwhile, returned to the flag in Cromwell's Commonwealth union of 1654 - which quartered cross and saltire with an Irish harp in one corner and the Protector's white lion at the centre. (emphasis by PBS)

If the peasants during the peasants revolt flew the Cross of Saint George, then that is an example of a national flag being flown long before the 18th century. As is Parliament declaring the Cross of Saint George the English national flag in 1649 during the English Interregnum/Commonwealth. -- PBS (talk) 14:15, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for late reply. User:PBS, I uploaded the image File:John Ball encouraging Wat Tyler rebels from ca 1470 MS of Froissart Chronicles in BL.jpg and added it to this article, but I really would not trust it to be a straightforward documentary depiction -- you can tell that from the way that peasant rebels are shown as knights in plate armor! In any case, the flags in the image could be considered military banners. To be a "national flag" in the modern sense, a flag needs to be displayed by ordinary civilians on land in a non-military context to symbolize the nation as a while -- something which was not too common before the late 18th century. AnonMoos (talk) 13:59, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
You say '"To be a "national flag" in the modern sense, a flag needs to be displayed by ordinary civilians on land in a non-military context to symbolize the nation as a while^[whole?]"' Who says?. The cross of St George was clearly a national symbol repesenting England the time that the painting of the Pesants revolt was created. It was clearly a national symbol when the legislation was passed banning all other saints flags during the Tudor period. This by the way is clear proof that it was flown by civilians, othewise why pass such legislation? The George Cross has been flown since that time until today from towers of Church of England churches, which means that it was and is a familiar site in every parish in England. The cross of St George was clearly the national symbol representing England in the Union flag first used by James I for the navies of Scotlad and England (Great Britain as he called them). The Cross of St George was the symbol used by the English Commonwealth to represent England. In Engand one rairly sees any national flag flown if it is not in a sporting context (where sport is a subsiture for war) or from a Church. What is the differce between the modern usage in England and the traditional usage? Who says that a to be a national flag to be a national flag it has to be displayed by "ordinay civilians" and not national institutions or shuch as an established church and government to symbolise a nation as a whole? The source I quote above (Robert Coles) seems to support this interpretation. -- PBS (talk) 12:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
The Tudor law/decree in fact standardized a single maritime flag for England. Even in the United States, the first flag law was passed in 1777 by the Marine Committee of the Second Continental Congress (in the context of several resolutions about naval affairs), and was probably intended mainly to establish a maritime flag for the United States. Something can be a symbol of the royal government and the royal army and royal navy without being a national flag in the modern sense. I don't see much point in having the same debate we did back in 2015 (in the archives). AnonMoos (talk) 15:56, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
What is your source that the Tudor law (decree is something else) only "in fact standardized a single maritime flag for England" and so contradicts the cited source in the article? What are your sources that contradict the statement by Robert Colls? -- PBS (talk) 17:53, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I read it a number of years ago, and don't remember where. I just now downloaded the Perrin book referenced on the article page, but all he says is that the other saints' banners faded out by the end of Henry VIII's reign, leaving the cross of St. George to stand alone as the basic maritime flag of England (though warships still flew royal badge flags, and heraldic banners of the royal arms, as can be seen from the illustration across from the title page). AnonMoos (talk) 02:25, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

White dragon flag may have associations with neo-Nazism

This page suggests that the white dragon flag as depicted in one of the article's images has connections with neo-Nazism. The caption should reflect this. Though, if the flag is considered to be a symbol of a hate group it raises the question of whether this is a flag of England at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:189F:6B00:1894:90FE:AB1C:E720 (talk) 14:13, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

The association between a white dragon and England comes from a legend in Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae, which pre-dates Nazism by quite a few centuries. The flag is more recent, and strictly unofficial, of course... AnonMoos (talk) 03:48, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2019

When you mention the city of Genoa it should be specified that it is an Italian city. It is not such a well-known city in fact. As such, it may look like as there might be a subtle attempt to avoid claiming clearly that the English flag has been firstly copied and then even actually stolen to the Italian city. This should be researched and cleared. Check this source: https://theculturetrip.com/europe/italy/articles/how-england-ended-up-stealing-the-flag-of-genoa/ Ilconteurbano (talk) 19:22, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 19:26, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2019

Add the flag of Bermuda to the section "Outside England", under the subsection of "Elsewhere". Flag of Bermuda TheWikiNick (talk) 22:50, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: contains a representation of the Union Flag, not the Flag of England. --Goldsztajn (talk) 12:35, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2021

The banner of England is gotten from Saint George's Cross (heraldic blazon: Argent, a cross gules). The relationship of the red cross as a token of England can be followed back to the Late Middle Ages, and it was progressively utilized close by the Royal Banner in the wake of the English Reformation, particularly as an oceanic banner. It was utilized as a segment in the plan of the Union Jack in 1606.[2]

It has been broadly utilized since the 1990s, explicitly at public games, particularly during England's public football crew's season.[3] Mio hasselsen 4567 (talk) 16:43, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Seagull123 Φ 19:53, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2020 and 15 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ecardon3.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:29, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

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