Talk:Flag of Texas/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Original Flag of Texas

This article incorrectly states that the "Bonnie Blue" flag was the original flag of the Republic of Texas. This is a common mistake, but the original flag was the Burnet flag, which had a gold star, not a white one. The Burnet flag was used from 1836-1839. --JW1805 01:12, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Merge of World's Largest Texas Flag

I honestly don't believe that "World's Largest Texas Flag" is a topic that deserves its own article (it's probably both unencyclopedic and a vanity article), but it could conceivably be made a section in this one. -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 09:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. "World's Largest Texas Flag" is both an item (the flag) and short-hand for the use of it as part of traditions at the University of Texas at Austin (UT). The World's Largest Texas Flag article is encyclopedic and referenced. It would be inappropriate to discuss UT traditions on an article about the Texas Flag itself. Therefore, the subject should rightly be covered at its own article. Johntex\talk 17:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Disagree What if someone else makes a bigger flag? Then we'd have to un-merge it. Records are broken all the time, and it is not inconceivable that a rival school will break the record. Jaksmata 15:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Indivisible?

The Pledge to the Texas Flag uses the word "indivisible", although the Ordinance of Annexation states that "New States of convenient size not exceeding four in number, in addition to said State of Texas and having sufficient population, may, hereafter by the consent of said State, be formed out of the territory thereof, which shall be entitled to admission under the provisions of the Federal Constitution ..." I haven't found anything repealing that condition, but it may have been repealed or rescinded when Texas rejoined the Union after the Civil War. 69.22.22.161 17:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Texaphyrin link

I know there is some suggestion that this chemical molecule has a star shape in it resembling a 5-pointed star, but is there any good reason for the Texas flag page to link to some molecule? Rigel1 18:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

texas flag (origin)

in spanish: Otra de las versiones más aceptadas al respecto plantea que fueron los texanos quienes se inspiraron en el emblema de Chile. Según la historia, la Fiebre del Oro en el oeste de Estados Unidos, a mediados del siglo XIX, llevó a muchos chilenos a viajar a ese país en busca de riquezas, los que para distinguirse entre sí montaban campamentos clavando en el suelo la bandera chilena distinguible desde grandes distancias. De esa forma ésta se hizo icónicamente muy reconocida, por lo que los texanos y chilenos que nunca volvieron a su patria lo adoptaron como emblema modelo de ese estado, pero para diferenciarlo, convirtieron el cuadrante azul en una banda vertical y pusieron la estrella blanca en su centro.

source: wikipedia

the most accepted version is about a priest who comes first to chile and after he went to a new mission to texas together with chilean workers to work in the gold fever era. This priest took the chilean flag and this flag image was very common like a real icon adopted finally to design the final texas flag.

source: "Historias y leyendas de Valparaiso". "Cronicas de la fiebre del oro y del salitre".

Honestly, Mauricio Puentes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.120.188.172 (talk • contribs)

Saludos y gracias, Mauricio. I reverted your additions back in January after doing several searches to confirm the information - I came up completely empty with English sources. No online confirmations and none from any of my own history books. The actual history I found corresponds to the article here. Nothing about a priest or about the gold rush. Since we can't use "wikipedia" as an actual source, could you tell me more about your other two sources? I could not seem to find references to them. Thank you very much for helping with this! Kuru talk 01:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Aircraft Livery

The other day I saw a jet landing at San Diego International Airport with the Flag of Texas as it's livery. Anyone know which airline this might have been? There's also the possibility that it was the Chilean Flag as well, but I'm pretty sure that it was the Texas Flag.Cuitlahuac 04:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Hell, I should have just checked google in the first place. Anyways it's apparently a Boeing 737-3H4 called "Lone Star One" from Southwest airlines celebrating their 20th anniversary. Found the info here, http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/airborne.html with some photos of it here http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?front=yes&s=1&keywords=Lone+Star+One if anyone is interested. Cuitlahuac 04:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Flag Orientation

Can anyone confirm or refute the following: a Texas flag INTENDED to be hung fly-up, hoist-down (as a wall hanging) is supposed to have its star oriented so that one point is up. When I was younger my father said he saw one in a judge's office and when he asked the judge about it, the judge said that Texas state law actually provides for such usage. 172.139.111.135 01:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)RKH

You are absolutely correct that Texas state law, according to the article and the reference provided, states that the flag has a width to length ratio of two to three, meaning that the flag is a vertical, not a horizontal, flag. However, the same law states that the blue stripe is vertical and the white and red stripes horizontal. This would make the flag of Texas different from any Texan flag I've seen. For now, I think that we should leave the flag the way it is. --Apple1976 (talk) 23:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Urban legend

Under the headline Urban legend a reference is made to the Ordinance of Annexation. However, I believe the link tied to this reference is to another document, Texas' Ordinance of Secession. CLCHWM (talk) 17:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)clchwm

Odd. I removed the link and added an external ref. Thanks for noticing that. Kuru talk 23:18, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Try this for the correct link. CLCHWM (talk) 03:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)clchwm http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/annexation/4july1845.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by CLCHWM (talk • contribs) 03:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Si - that's the same one I added earlier.  :) Kuru talk 03:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Bonnie Blue flag?

The article asserts that the Burnet Flag "consisted of an azure background with a large golden star, inspired by the 1810 "Bonnie Blue Flag" of the Republic of West Florida." Please note that the "Bonnie Blue" flag of the Confederacy was created and nicknamed in 1861. The Republic of West Florida existed in 1810. So the association between the two is dubious and is being contested at Talk:Bonnie Blue Flag#Dubious. — Rob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 22:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Color Specifications

It is sated on this article that, by law, "The red and blue of the state flag are the same colors used in the United States flag." The RGB values listed for the Texas flag are 191,10,48/255,255,255/0,40,104 (red/white/blue). However, the RGB values as listed on the United States flag, in the same order, are 187,19,62/255,255,255/0,38,100. If nobody tells otherwise, I will change the RGB values of the Texas flag to those of the US flag by the end of tomorrow. DidgeGuy (talk) 13:30, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Never mind, I'm too afraid that I'll screw something up and people will get mad at me. But this issue should be addressed. --DidgeGuy (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I’ve just done some research and changed the colors listed in the American flag article. There’s been some discussion on that page, and I think there’s a reasonable consensus about the new colors (no one seems exceptionally unhappy with them anyway). Someone might want to copy that information over here, and into the Texas flag file, too. –jacobolus (t) 21:23, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

16 Stripe Red and Green Design?

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/treasures/flagsandmaps/flag-design.html

Apparently according to the state archives there was one such flag proposed with modifications suggested by Stephen F. Austin --Thegunkid (talk) 10:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Texas Rebel Flag?

What is the provenance or historical usage of this so-called "Texas Rebel Flag"? I've seen it for sale before in shops, I've also seen one where just the red stripe of the Texas flag was a "rebel flag," but I don't think this flag has any historical significance. Does it? Vexillologists, where are you? TuckerResearch (talk) 20:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe that it has no basis whatsoever in history. It was added by User:Fry1989 in early February, and the image comment states that its source was the 1950's Georgia state flag and the Texas flag. I'm pulling it. Ben (talk) 19:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't want to remove it unilaterally. I'm not up on Civil War regimental flags, but I wonder if any Texas regiments used such a flag? TuckerResearch (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I've seen a number of Texas regimental flags, and while many of them employed the Battle Flag embroidered with the regiment's name, none displayed this odd portmanteau. Of course, "absence of evidence" applies. -Ben (talk) 02:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
First, I really would have appreciated it if someone had notified me of this so I could give comment(is that too much to ask?). I added it to the page alongside two others regarding the Secession of Texas from Mexico and then the United States before the Civil War took place. One of them, with the letters "texas" around the star was used in those two secessions, while all three designs are used by people who believe in the secession of Texas from the United States today(I've seen them in videos of those silly secession rallies some people had after Obama was elected President). I'm not claiming that this "Texas rebel flag" was used in the past or that it has historical value, but that it's used NOW by both people who want to represent their Texan & Southern heritage, and those who want secession. For that reason, i believe it should be put back. It was made absolutely clear in the text what this flag is and is used for. I am re-instating my section that was titled "independence flags", which dealt with several flags used for support for independence both in 1800s and modern times. Fry1989 (talk) 23:42, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
From what I understand, the flag has no historical significance. It is not officially advocated, not seen in rallies, was not part of a "change the Texas Flag" contest, etc... For these reasons, I don't believe that flag holds significance, in any way, related to this article. If a secessionist movement gains strength, and this is their flag, it might be so. However, any secessionist group should use a different design given that the southern cross, in this context, implies bigotry. -DevinCook (talk) 02:16, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Regardless, reliable sources for each flag should be provided at a minimum. The first one seems to be the standard mythical representation of the DeZavala flag; the second appears to be a modified Scott flag. I really can't find anything on the third one - at least not in history books. Could you provide some sources on that last one to help? Kuru (talk) 02:36, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
There have been numerous variations of the California flag over the decades - but these minor variations certainly do not deserve to be mentioned in the Flag of California page. For instance: a neo-nazi group could replace the red star with a swastika, or a communist group could put the hammer and sickle there was well. I haven't seen either of these variations, but, I have little doubt, as many were produced as this Texas variant. -DevinCook (talk) 22:16, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Comparing Texas flag to other flags

If you're going to note which flags look like it, then make a comprehensive list and don't feed the trolls who want to suggest one copied the other without a history of commonalities between them. b0at 22:15, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This argument is invalid because it discusses this issue about the flag of Texas irreverently using the pop culture phrase of "urban legend." As any law can be made and as any branch of power of the United States may judge whether it is constitutional or not, as that determination is not set in stone (the House of Representative can be determined best to judge whether a law is Constitutional or not), and as the Supreme Court itself did not sit in judgement of the question of whether laws or policies were constitutional during its infancy, the question of whether or not the symbol of the Texas flag should be held in importance over other flags and equal to the U.S. flag was never written in stone and still isn't while such a opinion is prejudice, partisanly speaking, being wholly dependent on ones interpretation. In other words, what does the treaty say and what does popular opinion interpret it to say? If the majority of legal Texans believe the Texas flag should be held in greater importance to, let's say, the Mexican flag as well as equal to in importance to the U.S. flag, at least no argument should be made swaying and challenging this as a self evident truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uncle Emanuel Watkins (talk • contribs) 13:42, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Urban legend

Is the precedence issue actually only an urban legend? It's fairly common in Texas to see the Texas flag and the US flag flown at equal heights, while in most states the US flag is flown on a taller flagpole. --Delirium 22:54, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)

It's an urban legend. However, current Texas flag code specifies that if the Texas flag is flown on a pole alongside the US flag, both flags should be on poles of equal height (3100.055). Note that both US flag code and Texas flag code specify no penalties or enforcement provisions, and as such are merely guidelines. Given that, Texans are going to do what they damn well please when it comes to flying flags. -- Cyrius|✎ 08:32, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I've seen the Massachusetts State flag at the same height as the US flag often (I live in MA).. But we should just go by what the flag law says. --24.147.128.141 16:39, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I find this phrase interesting: "Texas is the only state to be internationally recognized as an independent country".

While I suppose I could believe that no one other than the US ever bothered to recognize the Bear Flag Republic (though I would need some references on that), I find it hard to believe that no other country recognized the independent kingdom of Hawaii.

Even the Texas flag code recognizes the Hawaiian flag (although it does not explicitly name it). -- Cyrius|✎ 08:32, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The original 13 states where all internationally recognized as independent countries, had their own militias, their own constitutions, their own currency, their own customs, taxes and police, etc. The Republic of Texas was also an internationally recognized country, as was the Kingdom of Hawaii. Florida and California and Vermont were all independent for a short time but probably did not receive international recognition except for maybe from the U.S. --WisTex 09:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"Unlike other states, Texas was an independent nation before it became a state, had its own Revolutionary War and creation story (who hasn’t heard of the Alamo?), and negotiated special considerations when it joined the union (the Texas flag, for instance, can fly at the same level as the United States flag)." -- PBS (http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/texan/)

The text I have pasted above was obtained from a PBS website and makes clear reference to the fact that the Texas flag can be flown at the same level as the US flag. The Texas Flag Code gives precedence to the US flag if they are both being flown on the same flag staff. -- osfancy

The story that Texas has some sort of special agreement is still not true, and I'm disappointed in PBS for repeating it. Neither the Joint Resolution for Annexing Texas to the United States (US side) nor the Ordinance of Annexation (Texas side) contain any provisions regarding flags.
The current US Flag Code only specifies that a state flag cannot be flown higher than the US Flag. Other states could fly their flags at the same height if they wanted to. Not that the flag code actually has any legal weight to begin with. -- Cyrius|✎ 21:26, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Texas has no special status for its flag. The superior position for a flag under the US Flag Code is either the topmost position or the leftmost position. The US flag code specifies that a non-national flag must be flown below the US flag or "if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America" (4 USC 7(b)). Mateo SA | talk July 6, 2005 19:20 (UTC)

This argument is invalid because it discusses this issue about the flag of Texas irreverently using the pop culture phrase of "urban legend." As any legitimate law can become unenforceable, any illegitimate custom can be enforced as a law. As any law can be made and as any branch of power of the United States may judge whether it is constitutional or not, as that determination is not set in stone (For example, the House of Representatives could sit in as the judge of whether a law is Constitutional or not), and as the Supreme Court itself during its infancy did not at first sit in judgement of the question of whether laws legislated or policies implemented were done so constitutionally, the question of whether or not the symbol of the Texas flag should be held in importance over other flags and equal to the U.S. flag was never written in stone and still isn't while such a opinion is prejudiced, partisanly speaking, being wholly dependent on ones interpretation. In other words, what does the treaty say and what does custom (popular opinion) interpret it to say? If the majority of legal Texans believe the Texas flag should be held in greater importance to, let's say, the Mexican flag as well be held as equal to in importance to the U.S. flag, no arguments should be made swaying and challenging this as a self evident truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uncle Emanuel Watkins (talk • contribs) 13:44, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Opening section

Phrasing of "The flag, flown at homes and businesses statewide, is highly popular among Texans and is treated with a great degree of reverence and esteem within Texas" does not adequately reference the great number of Texans living outside of the state. Nearly every Texan I have visited outside of the state also (and perhaps even more so) reveres and respects the flag. What Texan do you know does not brag about their Texan nature and flag?>Kargin (talk) 12:27, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The nation of Texas furthered the social contract. Sam Houston was George Washington. Dictator Santa Anna was the tyrant king George. But there was a subtle difference. While George Washington led his army to ultimate victory over tyranny, the dictator was being distracted in his tent by a woman. If the Texans had of lost the war, this Yellow Rose would have gone down in history as a prostitute. As the Texans won the war, she went on to become the Yellow Rose of Texas. See, these ungrateful people spit on us and our history. If they'd take just a second to appreciate it, they would see that Texas is a wonderful extension of the United States. By the way, there is a unique design built into the flag of Texas which makes it submissive to the flag of the United States. It is the lone star. See the thirteen stripes and the colors of blue, white, and red mean nothing in the flag of the United States. The stars represent the fifty states. I think we are all in agreement on this. So, the lone star on the Texas flag is always in submission to the fifty on the flag of the United States and it doesn't matter at what position the state flag is flown in relationship to the United States it is part of. This is only true of the Texas flag. I have no doubt that this is an argument the Supreme Court will accept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uncle Emanuel Watkins (talk • contribs) 21:33, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

"Proper vertical display" of the Texas flag

"Proper vertical display" of the Texas flag? I can't find any proof....

I removed this image from the Texas flag page because I can't find any proof anywhere that it is the actual proper way to display the state flag. I can't find any images of it either. Here is the relevant section of the Texas Flag Code (http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/GV/htm/GV.3100.htm#3100.051):

Sec. 3100.059. HORIZONTAL AND VERTICAL DISPLAY.
 (a) If the state flag is displayed horizontally, the white stripe should be above the red stripe and, from the perspective of an observer, to the right of the blue stripe.
 (b) If the state flag is displayed vertically:
      (1) the blue stripe should be above the white and red stripes; and
      (2) the white stripe should be, from the perspective of an observer, to the left of the red stripe.

Nothing about the Lone Star being turned to point up. So, until I see any proof, this flag is off. TuckerResearch (talk) 07:27, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

It's based on Section 3100.002, (C) (II), which demands the star points upwards irrespective of its orientation.

Sec. 3100.002. DESCRIPTION: IN GENERAL. (a) The state flag is a rectangle that:
(1) has a width to length ratio of two to three; and
(2) contains:
(A) one blue vertical stripe that has a width equal to one-third the length of the flag;
(B) two equal horizontal stripes, the upper stripe white, the lower stripe red, each having a length equal to two-thirds the length of the flag; and
(C) one white, regular five-pointed star:
(i) located in the center of the blue stripe;
(ii) oriented so that one point faces upward; and
(iii) sized so that the diameter of a circle passing through the five points of the star is equal to three-fourths the width of the blue stripe.
(b) The red and blue of the state flag are:
(1) the same colors used in the United States flag; and
(2) defined as numbers 193 (red) and 281 (dark blue) of the Pantone Matching System.
(c) The red, white, and blue of the state flag represent, respectively, bravery, purity, and loyalty.

--Thegunkid (talk) 17:52, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, you're incorrect. The section you quote is a general description describing the flag in its horizontal state.

Notice:

  • Sec. 2 (A): "one blue vertical stripe"
  • Sec. 2 (B): "two equal horizontal stripes, the upper stripe white, the lower stripe red"
  • Sec. 2 (C) i: "[the star is] located in the center of the blue stripe"

If the star is located in the center of the blue stripe which, according to this entire section, is a vertical stripe, it is not like the image we're discussing. This section is not describing a vertical flag, but a horizontal one. Again, the flag as depicted just does not exist. TuckerResearch (talk) 16:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

And, a picture from the Texas Capitol of the flag shown vertically. TuckerResearch (talk) 17:06, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

No, section (c) simply states the star is to be placed in the center of the blue stripe, pointing upwards, with it's exact size in relation to the width of the blue stripe specified, and nothing more, and especially [nothing] in relation to it being vertical, horizontal or even diagonal. It is section (A) states the blue stripe is vertical, but Sec. 3100.059 section (b) inverts the use of vertical and horizontal in (A) and (B) of Section 3100.002 respectfully for the purposes of vertical display of the state flag by changing the arrangement of the stripes to the blue stripe above the red and white stripes, with white dexter, with no reference to the star at all.
So unless you want to declare section 1300.059; subsection (B) of the Texas Government code void for the purposes of wikipedia, the flag added to the article is following the exact legal specifications of State Law to the T, though that also isn't to say the use of a regular flag simply hoisted vertically with the star pointing dexter is completely incorrect ether.
Now to another point; you are denying the existence of this flag all together. I can assure you that this legal variant of the flag does in fact exist and is not unheard of, though rarely used due to the practice of vertically hoisting state flags being rare on its own. --Thegunkid (talk) 05:36, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

You're saying section C is just divorced from the rest of Sec. 3100.002? I find that that strains credulity. Can you find me a secondary source depicting this variant? I looked through several books on the flag today at my University library and did not see it anywhere (or a description of it anywhere). I spent the whole of April 29 looking for an image of this variant. No dice. Do you know of one? (I reckon you don't.) If the flag is displayed at a 45 degree angle, does the star have to turn to point up? That would be the literal reading of 1.C.ii divorced from the rest of as Sec. 3100.002 too, right? (You must admit that: "oriented so that one point faces upward.") (I believe Sec. 3100.002 constructs the flag, and then Sec. 3100.059 describes how that flag should be hung vertically. Not that a new flag must be constructed and used to hang it vertically.) I think that this "flag" is just the fevered dream of an over-eager vexillologist. TuckerResearch (talk) 06:22, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I can't locate my secondary source anymore, but the flag was added based on a story of what a County Court told a citizen regarding the star pointing towards hoist on a flag hung vertically in their court offices, I've personally seen flags made for vertical display used and depicted as such before I added it to the article, and the government code seems to have supported the conclusion this was the preferred way to depict the flag vertically. --Thegunkid (talk) 14:34, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Is there anybody we should ask who might have the source here on Wikipedia? TuckerResearch (talk) 15:51, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Well I have sent this over to Zscout370 to check over since if anyone knows what's right, it's him, since he is the most experienced person I know regarding these matters. --Thegunkid (talk) 18:43, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, I feel a bit uneasy about just asking one person that you know, so I dropped a little note for comment and sources at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Heraldry_and_vexillology/Tasks#Texas_flag.2C_vertical_display. TuckerResearch (talk) 16:25, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how what's so uneasying about it, he is a admin and fairly experienced in matter involving flags and coat of arms from his work on the several national flags, which is how I know him, and this needed some third party input; to add other than him, Fry1989 is the only other vexillologist I know, and since he made the .svg upon a request made by me, I doubt he would be considered suitable to provide unbiased input on this matter. --Thegunkid (talk) 00:34, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Just a tad uneasy, because apparently you have at least a working relationship with him, he might be inclined to lean your way. Of course, he might not, but I'm being honest with you. (I'm not trying to say your in a cabal or cahoots or anything, I'd just feel better with more input rather than one dude's input.) I'm looking primarily for a secondary source on this flag's existence, because it appears to me this .svg is an interpretation of a primary source (and, of course, I still think an incorrect one). I'd feel much better about it if it was depicted somewhere in a book or article, not surmised from a flag code. And vexillologists might be the ones to have such a definitive source. Do you know of a better place to post such a request than where I did? (On a separate issue, how do you feel about how I split up the flag gallery in the article?) TuckerResearch (talk) 01:06, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Well he agrees your interpretation, but he said he would double check when he get's home in a week after I repeated that story regarding a Texas county court to him. Now, I suppose this might be somewhat relevant to this debate, (I don't really think these flags are valid for this discussion due to the fact they are swallowtailed and the blue stripe's proportions are off the legal specifications to the point it's nearly square) all the vertical flags along the length of Texas Avenue in Downtown Houston use the upright star in their construction, so it isn't like this flag variant is a invention of mine.

http://www.convergencedesignllc.com/uploads/galleries/originals/MMP%202005-04-26%20(21).jpg

Here's a street view link as well if you want to see.
To add, I doubt linking this to that page will be of much use to ether of use considering the last activity on it was almost 9 months ago, but it's worth a shot I suppose. --Thegunkid (talk) 02:28, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I read User:Zscout370's Commons page where you two have been talking and what you've put here. I have to agree the swallow-tailed flags are more decoration than flag, and I'm glad to see that he echoes my contention that if we follow your reasoning, the star must swivel to upward however the flag is angled. I never meant to intimate that you just made this flag up willy-nilly, but I also maintain that it's not an actual, legal flag (nor do I think it is an acceptable, legal variant). And you sort of glossed over my picture from the Texas Capitol of the flag shown vertically. You must admit, if anyone was inclined to have and display the "legal" upward-star-pointing flag it would be the Texas state government, right? I think we need a solid source before we post this flag. TuckerResearch (talk) 20:08, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

"if we follow your reasoning, the star must swivel to upward however the flag is angled
For some reason this statement made me chuckle since it reminded me of a remark made to the president during the debate regarding the which way the eagle should face on seal of the United States back in 1960s, or was it the late 1940s, I can't remember but you know what I mean.
I thought I referenced the flag at the Texas state Capitol, I guess not, maybe I'm just remembering something I wrote wrote before backspacing over it, but that under my reading of the flag code, it doesn't preclude a flag designed with the star for horizontal use from being used in vertical display with, since again, 1300.52 doesn't reference the star at all, since I would be a hypocrite if I didn't believe that I have a Texas flag on my wall in vertical display the star pointing towards dexter. (in all honesty, I doubt that flag belongs to the State Government considering it seemed to been up for a only a short period since I never saw it in all my visits to the State Capitol over the past 5 years, and most government flags are usually 3'x5', with a large flag like that usually only seeing use by those Auto dealerships that always have a 200 foot tall flag pole in the parking lot, and football teams.), since I hold that both versions are acceptable, but that I view the one with the vertical star as being the more proper of the two; and to add, don't underestimate our Government and it's inability to follow its own regulations based on this flag patch they are selling at the Capitol giftshop, and hell, when the legislature originally adopted the reverse of the state seal, the art they chose had the state flag using a yellow star.
So with all that aside, I propose a compromise that short of refusing to display any vertical flag in the article, which would do a discredit to this article, that we simply display both versions side by side since the government code all in all leaves all in all doesn't go against a veritcal with the star pointing towards hoist in vertical display as any less legal than a flag with a star pointing towards dexter in vertical display per se. --Thegunkid (talk) 21:14, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
So how about the compromise since the vertical star version does have some standing? --Thegunkid (talk) 22:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't think the vertical star version has any standing. Yes, the government is quite dumb from time to time, but, I wouldn't equate a shield-shaped patch with a legal flag (just like Downtown Houston using decorative banners aren't legal flags either). I hate to sound like an ass, but I can't go along with your proposed compromise to display two vertical versions side-by-side. I do not hold that "both versions are acceptable," much less that "the one with the vertical star as being the more proper" version. I also dispute that the government code leaves the option of a vertical star on a vertically displayed flag open. I still maintain, as above, that you're over-interpreting and misreading the spirit and wording of the flag code, and I think User:Zscout370 agrees with me in his comments. I'm not willing to put up this flag without a secondary source. TuckerResearch (talk) 22:38, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually if you want to go into it, the flags flown in Downtown Houston are the same design as Coasting Trader ensign adopted by the same act that created the current flag along with the slightly infamous Pilot flag during the the 1840s which you can read more about in this paper by the South Texas Law Review, I doubt this was the intention of Houston's Government, that is, to revive this obscure flag, but then again the Texas Legislature attempted to revive the Pilot flag a couple of years ago, so yeah, those are flags that were legally adopted by Texas, Making their swallowtail design irrelevant.
Secondly the variant of the Texas flag vertically displayed with a upright star goes back almost 150 years based on this exhibit at the Daughters of the Republic of Texas' Republic of Texas Museum in Austin, though again, like most else I put forward as evidence for this variant of the flag, they all seem to undermine it's due to the blatantly incorrect design as well as those two flags below with upside down stars. --Thegunkid (talk) 11:37, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I guess I can applaud you in your extensive, and arcane, search for variant images of the Texas flag, but it still has no bearing on the issue at hand. The article you've linked to by Charles Spain is very intriguing, and an excellent source (I'm printing it for my files!), but it does nothing for your argument. In fact, it hurts your argument. So what if there was a coasting trade flag that was swallow-tailed? If you look at the image on page 33 it shows the flag in the standard horizontal position with the star in the standard position. It had nothing to do with turning the star for a vertical banner, nothing to do with the vertical decorative banners in downtown Houston, and nothing to do with the standard legal flag of Texas!

And the second image you sent is, I'm sorry, laughable. Not only do parade ribbons have nothing to do with the state flag, only one of the ribbons has the "flag" your way, the other two ribbons have the star upside down facing the red stripe! If we follow your reasoning that this is proof of your "variant of the Texas flag" then you have to call an upside-down-star flag another variant! I guess I could point to this image of the Alamo as further proof of this upside down Texas flag variant! I'm sorry, but your vertical "variant" is not the proper or legal way to hang the Texas flag vertically. Nothing you've pointed to proves it. TuckerResearch (talk) 15:56, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I give up. --Thegunkid (talk) 16:08, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Burnet Flag shade of blue?

Why exactly does it have a lighter, more vibrant blue than the rest of the flags, which take their shades from the flag of the United States? --Thegunkid (talk) 17:31, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

How's this: "an azure ground" and "The national standard of the republic of Texas, adopted Dec. 10, 1836, was of 'an azure ground, with a large golden star central.'" Azure and Old Glory Blue are different colors, right?
Here is another quote:


Interesting on those "auxiliary flags." TuckerResearch (talk) 18:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

The question was this: why does the Burnet flag have a different shade of blue than the rest of the flags in the article.

And I've been wanting to see about getting a red version of the 'Zavala' flag done up since I saw that in a archived news paper article from during the Texas Revolution. --Thegunkid (talk) 19:24, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Answered above. Azure and Old Glory Blue are different colors. Now, should all the others be switched to azure? Is that what you're saying? I bet the original Republic of Texas flag was a different shade of blue than Old Glory Blue, but I think it'd be a mess to change them all, as we couldn't be sure which shade of blue was ever really used. And a 1835-1836 Texas Revolution newspaper had color images? Really? TuckerResearch (talk) 19:52, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Azure is a Tincture and encompasses every shade of blue including Old Glory Blue, it is no specific shade or tone, and if you want, the colors of the US Flag could be called Gules, Argent and Azure instead of Red, White and Blue and it wouldn't change a single thing, like calling the Canton a Union instead, with the US flag's blazonbeing somewhere along the lines of Gules six bars Argent, argent on a canton azure 50 mullets of five points.

Now if Azure is an exact color as you are saying, then the ones used in the article certainty isn't correct, since the azure that the seal of the Republic uses is far different shade.

And really? I saw a written description of a flag in a news Paper article covering the Texas Revolution from 1835-1836, how did that in anyway imply a color image? This is becoming annoying. --Thegunkid (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Flag gallery

Can I ask why exactly when you created the Republic of Texas section of the flag gallery you added in much redundant fashion two different files depicting the same Neval Ensign in slightly varied constuction, as well as the 'second' naval ensign, which is widely known to be dubious? --Thegunkid (talk) 16:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

The San Antonio flying a Texas flag instead of a naval ensign!
I was adding files sort of indiscriminately from the Commons. One was labelled "Texas Star and Stripes" the other the "First Naval Ensign." I was just trying to be complete and add all the official government flags of the Republic. I didn't know that the second ensign was dubious, nor do I know if that is a "widely known" fact. I see from the Spain article (p. 225n26) that: "Nineteenth-century British flag books and charts incorrectly depicted the 1836 naval ensign as having a blue, vertical stripe similar to the current state flag, rather than the blue union authorized by the Texas President and Congress." I guess that's where the confusion originated. (And without a time machine, we may never know!) To add confusion to the matter, this old image of the Texian ship San Antonio depicts it flying a standard Texas flag! TuckerResearch (talk) 16:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
And I do worry there might be too many flags in the gallery. Or at least some other editor may think so. TuckerResearch (talk) 16:26, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

That image doesn't add to any confusion, it's a picture of a Texan ship sailing in the 1840s, the caption you added is a cause of confusion as there was no separate ensign for ships except for coasting trade ships and pilots after the adoption of the current flag we hold dear in 1839, and the paper you printed off states that. --Thegunkid (talk) 16:50, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

To add, the San Antonio was Commissioned in 27 June 1839, the current flag of Texas was adopted 5 months before that, meaning the San Antonio never flew the First Ensign, and in this apparently earlier depiction of it, it flew under the Burnet flag which I find surprising due to the fact that flag barely saw any use!

Speaking of the Burnett flag... --Thegunkid (talk) 17:15, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Also we think alike, I was about to start a discussion about rather or not we need to split this article off into a 'Flags of' article since I feel the number of flags is getting excessive. --Thegunkid (talk) 16:50, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Maybe a separate Flag of the Republic of Texas article? (Right now it's a redirect.) And put all the revolutionary flags and ensigns, etc. there? Perhaps? TuckerResearch (talk) 18:40, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
I guess that would be the best idea at this point. --Thegunkid (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
I like the flags you've added, maybe we should talk about them in the text and put the Spain source there? You also might consider messing with the flags at Texas Navy as well. Also, have you seen this: https://www.tsl.state.tx.us/treasures/flagsandmaps/flags/red-and-green.html. TuckerResearch (talk) 16:34, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes I saw that image, I was going to try to make it, and finished the basic design but I couldn't be assed to complete it since I didn't know how the Sun or Washington should be depicted based on this crude drawing, and the fact I wasn't in the mood to pilfer through the commons to locate ether element. --Thegunkid (talk) 16:50, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

A Texas brig flying the Texas naval ensign!
To add more confusion. A Texas brig from a Republic of Texas 1840 ten dollar note showing the first naval ensign. TuckerResearch (talk) 18:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

And what? This [1] shows a ship using the the current flag. --Thegunkid (talk) 19:34, 4 May 2012 (UTC) (take that back the 50 shows a striped flag, regardless)

Time machine. TuckerResearch (talk) 19:48, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Why are we discussing a Ensign that was retired in 1839 by act of congress? --Thegunkid (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

For fun! TuckerResearch (talk) 00:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Charles B. T. Stewart

User:Georgepreble, I totally understand your point that you believe that Charles B. T. Stewart did not design the Texas flag. And I agree with you, wholeheartedly. Nobody knows. However, Charles B T. Stewart is often credited with designing the flag. See, his article at The Handbook of Texas Online, for instance: "Stewart is credited with drawing the original draft of the Lone Star flag." So, I think it is best to mention Stewart is credited and is probably not the designer of the flag rather than just state that nobody knows the designer. The way the article is crafted now provides more information and is not incorrect. TuckerResearch (talk) 23:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Tuckerresearch, being credited with drawing a draft does not make one the designed by any stretch of the imagination. It also suggests that he was likely acting on instructions. This issue has been examined by two professionals in meticulously-document research, both of whom concluded that the actual designer is unknown. In any event, I would note that even the the Handbook of Texas article, which cites to sources that predate this research by at least 40 years, does not make a claim that he designed the flag. The best that can be said is what the Handbook says and not put your subjective interpretation on it.Georgepreble (talk) 23:13, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
User:Georgepreble, why are you so hostile? My "subjective interpretation"? "Professionals"? As you can see from above, I agree with you that Stewart probably didn't draw the flag. But you still don't seem to fathom what I was trying to do with my previous edits. Sources like the The Handbook of Texas (and the article is dated) say he had a role in its design, and many older ones do too. People that aren't as enlightened and intelligent as you might see the Stewart reference somewhere, see that it isn't mentioned, and stick it in. That would make the article contain a falsehood, and we'd have to go back in and edit it out every time. Now that we mention Stewart, but mention that he in fact did not design the flag, an editor is less likely to put that bad information back in. So, your previous edits removed all references to Stewart. I put it back in but made it clear that he did not design the flag. Now you have changed the wording again. I find the wording quite acceptable this time and won't change one lick of it. It mentions Stewart, but it says the designer is unknown. That's all I've ever wanted. This is how Wikipedia is supposed to work, reasoned collaboration. You telling me that, apparently, I'm stupid (because I must use a "stretch of the imagination," don't know about old sources, or can't comprehend "meticulously-documented research") is not helpful. And, PS, I am a "professional." TuckerResearch (talk) 23:40, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Acadian flag

I think the flag of Texas looks a bit like the flags of Acadia and Acadiana. Certainly, the earlier Dodson flag looks even more like it. It is said that in the Acadian flag, the star represents Our Lady, Star of the Sea, which is a Catholic marian title and symbol. This could be significant if one considers that Texas was formerly a part of the French colony of Louisiana. 70.31.236.137 (talk) 07:02, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

According to the articles, the flag of Acadia was adopted in 1884, and is explicitly based on the French tricolor. The Texas flag pre-dates it by almost fifty years. Ben (talk) 20:38, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

User:Mrdoiron keeps putting the Flag of Acadia into the article with poorly constructed verbiage and poor citations. I have reverted twice. It bears a passing resemblance to the Dodson tricolor, but this whole "Similar flags" section is troublesome because it is so subjective. (See some of the talkpage at Flag of the United States.) TuckerResearch (talk) 00:14, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

As with anything, we need sources that others have noted the similarities, or preferably that there is some historical connection. The Chile thing comes up quite a bit, but I've never heard of the others. I've added easy sources for the connections on Chile, North Carolina, and the Flag of Céspedes. I didn't see anything easy for the others. I'd propose removing them if the connections can't be sourced. Kuru (talk) 02:24, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. TuckerResearch (talk) 05:52, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Republic of Texas

It says in the image gallery that the, "Burnet Flag," used from 1836 to 1839 as the national flag of the Republic of Texas until it was replaced by the currently used "Lone Star Flag," but then under the Lone Star Flag image it says, from "1839–1845/1846 Republic of Texas national flag from 1839-1845/1846 (identical to modern state flag)." This makes no sense. Which one was it; used for the Republic?? Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:15, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the question. The date ranges don't overlap. Could you rephrase the question? Kuru (talk) 22:55, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Governor's flag

I revised the section on the Governor's flag, removing uncited information about a flag that was never adopted by the Legislature. I've updated it with traceable info concerning past efforts to establish the Republic of Texas's pilot flag as the Governor's flag, and the Flag Code's discussion on the matter.

I'm a bit confused as to where this "Governor's standard" flag came from in the first place. It does not appear on the Governor's website, nor does it show up in the Texas Legislature's archives. From what I've found, the only flag the legislature has ever proposed for the Governor's office was the 1839 pilot flag. The citation on Flags of governors of the U.S. states is broken. Any ideas? I don't like the inconsistency between my edits and the info on the list. LithiumAneurysm (talk) 03:20, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

The Governor's standard was, in use once upon a time as there's a photo of it being used by Governor John Connally on his parade car in 1964, but beyond that it's apparent the flag has fallen into disuse and obscurity. --Thegunkid (talk) 05:16, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

1835 Brazos River High and Low Water Mark flags

Doing research on revolution era documents I found this newspaper notice of the flags to mark the high and low water mark of the Brazos, with the discription being a white flag with a black Mexican eagle in the center to mark high water, and then for low water, two small white flags with black bulls on them. Oddly the next month a notice was put out that the bulls are red and the first flag is simply a Mexican flag --Thegunkid (talk) 02:20, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Cool. Nice research. But, these wouldn't be state government flags, per se, but flags of the ayuntamiento, i.e. local government flags. TuckerResearch (talk) 18:34, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Red "Zavala Flag"

@Thegunkid:, you once mentioned a red "Zavala"-style flag. Here is a link showing a news item from the June 25, 1836, edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer. Using Newspapers.com and GenealogyBank.com, I have found the same item re-printed in several other American newspapers in 1836. It reads: "The Texian flag as a plain red ground, with a single white star of five points, and between the points the letters TEXAS."

Might it be a variant flown during the Revolution? Here is an image called "Houston's Address To His Army" from this book: The Devil's Comical Oldmanick, 1837. With Comic Engravings of All the Principal Events of Texas. New York: Fisher & Turner, [1836].

Might that "Zavala"-style flag in the background be red? The idea that such a flag existed was out there, but did it? Where did that idea come from? TuckerResearch (talk) 22:39, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Well from my research on contemporary newspapers and documents in Texas so far I have failed to find any mention of the Zavala flag; there's only passing reference in a couple of Texas newspaper articles to Texan forces flying a "red flag" at San Jacinto, but that's all there is. Hell it's hard to find any references to any other flags in the newspapers at the time, since they just use the vague descriptions of "flag of independence", "one starred flag", "Texas flag", etc; So far the only actual proper description I've found of a flag in any Texas news paper at the time was an article from February 1836 about the Texian Army marching under the 1824 Flag. Beyond that the only thing I knew of until now before you showed me this political cartoon, the only contemporary source that supported the existence of the Zavala flag in any form was the fact it formed the design on the reverse of 1839 Texas Dollars.
Beyond that I would urge you to look into using https://texashistory.unt.edu/ to do research as well since it has a archive of several Revolution and Republic era Texas Newspapers. Also I haven't even looked at the state archives yet, since I'm sure there could be mention of hereto unknown flags in the Texas Congressional journals; though I haven't checked those in a while since the only time I looked at them was to try and find more details on Republic of Texas' California Territory and the 1841 claim to pretty much every Mexican border state. http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/collections/journals/journals.cfm --Thegunkid (talk) 06:00, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Oh wait that reminds me, in one of the news papers there was reference in context of a ship of a "one star flag with short stripes" which may be proof of the supposed "2nd Pattern" Texas Naval Ensign. --Thegunkid (talk) 06:21, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Here's the reference to a "red flag" at San Jacinto, it was flown by the San Felipe company. --Thegunkid (talk) 06:41, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
In an 1836 lithograph of Fort Defiance at Goliad, based on a drawing by Capt. Joseph Chadwick, there is a lone star and stripes flag that looks like the supposed naval ensign you mention. TuckerResearch (talk) 13:13, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Fort Defiance (also known as Presidio La Bahia) in Goliad, Texas
The supposed second naval ensign of the Republic of Texas
PS - Yes, the Portal to Texas History is an amazing resource. I'm using it for a project on annexation. It's neat to see you use it for flag research. TuckerResearch (talk) 13:17, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Alleged 'Civil Ensign'

The first part of the statement is patently false as the flag act of 1839 no 'civil ensign' was created except for the Coasting flag for ships exclusively going sailing directly between Texan ports; With the pilot's flag literally being only a pilot's flag which is standard practice at a majority of the ports in the world, for example the British Pilot Jack.

The Second part of the statement is egregious considering the fact this very article makes it a well known fact that all the laws regarding the Texas flag were mistakenly repealed in 1879 thus the statement that the supposed "civil ensign" "still" has legal force is outrageous. --Thegunkid (talk) 08:49, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

If you think this is all poppycock, I say remove it. For these reasons: (1) If it is incorrect, remove it; (2) it was added by an unregistered user, hard to debate; (3) the book is from 1988, so there are newer sources with better information; (4) the publisher is the Pelican Publishing Company, which is not the most scholarly of publishers. TuckerResearch (talk) 18:40, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Standard of the Governor

I deleted a speculative sentence about the Governor's flag during the 1960s. It had no citation, and the citation at Flags of governors of the U.S. states is a photo from 1964. My first search for reliable sources came up empty, but one promising lead that does not qualify as a RS.[2] It suggests that the '60s version was not official. BiologicalMe (talk) 14:27, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Similar Flags Section Necessary?

I don’t see the point of having a section dedicated to flags that are irrelevant besides looking similar to the flag of Texas. VectorEyes (talk) 15:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

  • Flag of Texas
    Flag of Texas
  • Flag of Chile
    Flag of Chile
  • Flag of the Isle of Portland, UK
    Flag of the Isle of Portland, UK
  • Flag of Khabarovsk Krai, Russia
    Flag of Khabarovsk Krai, Russia
  • Flag of Malacca, Malaysia
    Flag of Malacca, Malaysia
I too wonder, again, why we need this section. Though there may be a note about the flag of Chile in the text, listing every dang flag with a vertical stripe, two horizontal stripes, and/or a lone star seems to be excessive and subjective. I mean, "Flag of the Isle of Portland, UK"? Really? The "Flag of Khabarovsk Krai, Russia"? The "Flag of Malacca, Malaysia"? Really? Come on! I vote we nix the "Similar flags" section. TuckerResearch (talk) 17:31, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Concur - move the sourced and relevant material into the narrative, but the rest of this is WP:OR. Many of these flags are pretty far removed - just having three rough geometric regions on a flag does not constitute a "similar flag". The derived flags section is a little over the top as well; yes, there are likely hundreds of county and municipal flags that intentionally incorporated aspects of the state flag; not sure there's anything notable about that. Kuru (talk) 11:50, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. TuckerResearch (talk) 21:55, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Based on the consensus, though admittedly of only a few "votes," I have removed most of the "Similar Flags Section." Tell me what you think? TuckerResearch (talk) 21:55, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Flag of the Texas Sesquicentennial

Can someone make a flag of the 1986 Texas Sesquicentennial? If it was official and sponsored by the government. TuckerResearch (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Any takers? TuckerResearch (talk) 17:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Texas Rebel Flag

Was this a real flag that was used historically or a modern invention? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Texas_Rebel_Flag.png#filehistory — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.13.168.78 (talk) 15:31, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

This is a twentieth century invention, and was not used in any official capacity. TuckerResearch (talk) 16:26, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
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