Talk:Fred Graham

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Biography

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On 28 March 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Frederick Graham. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Requested move 28 March 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works (contribs) 21:57, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fred Graham → Frederick Graham – Most of the men listed upon the Fred Graham disambiguation page, are named "Frederick", including those indicated as "Fred". Fred Graham should redirect to Frederick Graham, not the opposite. — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 00:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 01:40, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure. There are some names that are "Fred" and therefore not properly called "Frederick" at all. BD2412 T 18:10, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Among the eight men listed upon the Fred Graham disambiguation page, five are listed as "Frederick" or having been named "Frederick". Three are listed as "Fred", but that may be because the creators of those three articles simply listed them as "Fred". For instance, IMDb lists the full name of one of those three, Fred Graham (actor), as Charles Frederick Graham.

Generally, disambiguation page main title headers tend to use the full form of a given name unless all entries use the same hypocorism. Some men may be actually named "Chuck X" or "Charlie X", but we would nonetheless tend to WP:DABCOMBINE them under the "Charles X" dab page, unless the page lists no one named "Charles". A recent dab page nomination of Fred Smith → Frederick Smith was successful at Talk:Frederick Smith#Requested move 1 March 2023. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:39, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. 5 of the articles are titled using "Fred", 2 use "Frederick" and one "Fergus". Absent any proposal to retitle the Fred/Fergus articles, the dab page is in the right spot. Station1 (talk) 03:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no indication that Sir Frederick Graham, 3rd Baronet, Frederick Graham (British Army officer) or Sir Frederick Fergus Graham, 5th Baronet a/k/a Fergus Graham were ever referenced as "Fred", thus it is counterintuitive for them to be listed under "Fred Graham".

On the other hand, Fred Graham (politician) [birth name Frederick Dickson Graham], Fred Graham (American football) [birth name Frederick Hartley Graham] and Fred Graham (actor) [birth name Charles Frederick Graham] had been known as "Frederick".

As for the remaining two men named Fred, the name "Fred" is described as a form of "Frederick", while the name "Frederick" is not described as a form of "Fred".

Thus it would appear to be intuitive that those searching for men named "Fred Graham" should be redirected to "Frederick Graham", rather than those searching for "Frederick Graham" should be redirected to "Fred Graham". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:32, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's true that we don't know that the Fredericks were ever known as Fred, but it's equally true that we don't know that the Freds were commonly known as Frederick (and it seems especially unlikely for the actor who had Frederick only as a middle name). I'm assuming the 5 Freds were more commonly known as Fred and the 2 Fredericks as Frederick. But frankly, as long as Frederick redirects to Fred or Fred redirects to Frederick, it makes virtually no difference. We could even have a separate dab page for the two Fredericks, but that seems like a bit of overkill. Station1 (talk) 07:54, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that all eight men should be listed on the same dab page, per WP:COMBINE, but a minor quibble regarding "a separate dab page for the two Fredericks". Since Sir Frederick Fergus Graham, 5th Baronet was commonly known as Fergus Graham, not as "Fred Graham", he should be counted as a third "Frederick Graham" for any potential separation into two dab pages. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:59, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:53, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.