Talk:Frederick Douglas (disambiguation)

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On 5 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Frederic Douglas. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Requested move 5 May 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 16:23, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Frederick Douglas (disambiguation) → Frederic Douglas – The links Frederic Douglass, Fredric Douglass, Fredrick Douglass and Fred Douglass all redirect to Frederick Douglass as does Frederick Douglas, Fredrick Douglas as well as Fredric Douglas. On the other hand, Frederic Douglas redirects to Frederic Huntington Douglas and Fred Douglas redirects to Fred J. Douglas. Thus, it would seem more intuitive for Frederic Douglas to be the main title header of the dab page rather than redirect to Frederic Huntington Douglas. At the same time, such a move would also obviate the need for the parenthetical qualifier "(disambiguation)". — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:22, 5 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 17:02, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little confused here. Is it Frederick Douglas or Frederic Douglas you want the DAB page moved to? Frederick Douglas should remain as a redirect to Frederick Douglass. Judging from the pageviews, it's clear that's what people searching it want (click logarithmic scale, the spikes are almost identical with the main article). Nohomersryan (talk) 02:04, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your pointing out the error in the opening line. I corrected the nomination to indicate Frederick Douglas (disambiguation) → Frederic Douglas, as had been stated in the second sentence of the nomination. If consensus were to prefer Frederick Douglas (disambiguation) → Fred Douglas, I would also support such a move since it would likewise eliminate the need for the qualifier "(disambiguation)".

The presence of "(disambiguation)" within the main title header, however, appears to indicate that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the Frederick Douglas (disambiguation) page is not a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Frederick Douglass but rather, by default, the primary topic seems to be the dab page's sole "Frederick" — the stub for Frederick Sylvester North Douglas (1791–1819), MP for Banbury — an unlikely candidate for historical primacy. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:46, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This request seems mostly motivated by OP's distaste of the (disambiguation) tag. The proposed move does not improve accuracy or clarity; the status quo works fine. 162 etc. (talk) 15:29, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I have never ever seen anything else like this anywhere on Wikipedia, where a misspelling of a person's name is judged to have primary topic. Eww. Frederick Douglass, the American hero, is a phenomenally important primary topic, but... like, his name isn't Frederick Douglas. This should not be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT; it should instead redirect straight to Frederick Douglass (disambiguation) and the two pages should be merged. Red Slash 16:55, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not without precedent; see the recent discussion at Talk:Elliot Smith (American football) which affirmed the primary redirect from Elliot Smith to Elliott Smith. 162 etc. (talk) 21:02, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This dab page's main title header — Frederick Douglas (disambiguation) — is completely arbitrary. There is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC indicated at the top and, among the three men listed on the page, the sole Frederick Douglas is a six-sentence stub for English MP Frederick Sylvester North Douglas.

By that standard, the dab page could have been named for one of the other two men — American curator Frederic Huntington Douglas {Frederic Douglas (disambiguation)} or American legislator Fred J. Douglas {Fred Douglas (disambiguation)}.

Having stated that, I would also support a merger of Frederick Douglas (disambiguation) into Frederick Douglass (disambiguation) per Red Slash — a move that may likely depict all the names with greater accuracy or clarity than the status quo. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:36, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating about that redirect; thank you, @162 etc.:. As for Roman Spinner's query, I think it's normal to arbitrarily pick a title for the dab page. Red Slash 15:56, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of Elliott Smith, "Elliott" is a given name and disambiguation pages usually combine people with similar given names such as Elliott / Eliott / Eliot or Phillip / Philip / Phil or Stephen / Steven / Steve or Katherine / Katharine / Catharine / Catherine etc, while in the instance under discussion, "Douglas" is a surname and surnames are not usually combined.

Thus for instance, Stephen Green and Stephen Greene have separate dab pages. However, because of the fame accruing to the name of Frederick Douglass, I would support making an exception and merging the Frederick Douglas (disambiguation) page into the Frederick Douglass (disambiguation) page.

Considering the matter from a different angle, since the renowned Frederick Douglass has never been referenced as "Fred Douglas" [with a single "s", or even with a double "s"], I would alternatively support moving the dab page Frederick Douglas (disambiguation), with one "s" [not to be confused with Frederick Douglass (disambiguation), with a double "s"], to the simple main title header Fred Douglas, thus obviating the need for the parenthetical qualifier "(disambiguation)". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:01, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose it's quite a common misspelling [1] So it seems there is a primaryredirect here -- 65.92.247.17 (talk) 03:31, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would support merging this dab page into Frederick Douglass (disambiguation) as suggested by Red Slash and Roman Spinner. That's the cleanest solution, and although it's apparently not normal, WP:DABCOMBINE allows us to exercise "editorial judgement" here. The question of whether Frederick Douglass is the primary topic for the other spellings can then be decided at RfD, if anyone is interested in bringing it up there. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:21, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.