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I am inquiring why my recent edit to the page concerning the Jaffe memo was reverted by Doniago, apparently for not being a "reliable source." But all I did was quote from the memo itself, to list the points given in the controversial appendix table. How could the memo itself not be a reliable source for an article discussing it??
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
DaveJaffe. While it is understandable why you would not want certain information posted about F. Jaffe, the information that is being entered is incontrovertible. The actual memorandum says what it says. It is also incontrovertible that Jaffe and Berelson worked together on the 1972 Rockefeller Commission Report, which, again, undeniably called for at least some of the proposals listed in the full memorandum. -- Rohan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.61.7.169 (talk) 02:22, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dave Jaffe. You appear to be engaging in an edit war, and have a clear conflict of interest against having information unflattering about your father/grandfather be posted, but Wikipedia is supposed to be about providing information, not burnishing reputations. Please provide an explanation for your reverts or else I will be forced to push this up the wiki chain. Rohan - 96.61.7.169 (talk) 14:30, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dave, perhaps you are unaware of the protocol for dealing with edits you don't approve of. Simply reverting them is not part of the protocol. This is Wiki's standard warning:
Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
Hi Rohan. You are right, Wikipedia is a place for facts, not to burnish someone's reputation, and yes, Fred Jaffe was my father. So let's stick to facts. The phrase you inserted. " The report was prepared in behalf of Planned Parenthood's Population Education Staff Committee as a basis for discussion of and action on the U.S. population problem by the Planned Parenthood national organization" does not appear in the memo we are discussing. Furthermore, if you read the memo, you would see that my father was listing all those methods to show that they were illegal, immoral, ineffective or just plain dumb. Do you really think that he and/or Planned Parenthood would "encourage increased homosexuality" as a means of population control? In the spirit of "nothing but the facts" I will accept your removal of the word "erroneously". The memo is there for all to read and come to their own conclusions. Dave Jaffe — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaveJaffe (talk • contribs) 04:41, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You finally arrive! Several things here. First of all, you're right, that snipped I was posting was not actually from Jaffe's memo. It is from the "U.S. Population Growth and Family Planning: A Review of the Literature." This article also cites the table (and Jaffe's memo). I think the confusion stems from the note from the Rockefeller archivist who lists the Elliot, Landman, Lincoln Tsouroka piece. It is the Elliot piece that specifically says "The report was prepared in behalf of Planned Parenthood's Population Education Staff Committee as a basis for discussion of and action on the U.S. population problem by the Planned Parenthood national organization." The archivist conflates the two memos, and it appears that the jaffememo.com site followed suit on that point. I will follow up with that site so the author of it can fix that.
However, your characterization that your father is merely "listing those methods" to show that they were "illegal, immoral, ineffective, or just plain dumb" is nonetheless completely false, and, having read the full memorandum myself, and now scanning it again, that much is obvious. There is no hint at all that he found them 'dumb.' Instead, he says quite the opposite, that 'more study' is needed. For example, when considering 'free social services' such as 'Maternal and Child Medical Care' and 'Compulsory Public education Through High School' (page 3), he does not reject it out of hand. Instead he says, these ideas, rather than being 'pro-natalist', "In fact, areas and nations providing more free social services appear, on superficial analysis, to have lower fertility..." and he NEVER repudiates that idea. Instead, he urges more study: "the influence or lack of influence of these services on fertility should be established."
Further down on page 3, he again states, "A definitive empirical study is needed of the fertility outcome of family allowance programs". Several sentences later, "A definitive empirical study is also needed of the specific variant in this area -- [namely AFDC mothers]." No mention that any of these ideas are "illegal, immoral, ineffective, or just plain dumb." They just need further study... which is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
If you want, I can update the entry to show all of the things that your father wanted further study for. ;)
Can you give me even one quote from the full memorandum to justify your characterization?
It's important, because you say you want people to make up their own minds, but actually you are slanting it heavily by insinuating that your dad listed those ideas only to repudiate them, which is a complete lie. Unless you have other documents to show otherwise.
But a strong counter argument still exists for the opposite, and I can see why the "this report was prepared" by thing got conflated. Your dad was vice-president of Planned Parenthood-World Population. Robin Elliot is listed as a "Program Planning Analyst of Planned Parenthood-World Population." Your dad's table was repeated in a document clearly listed as providing ideas for action BY PLANNED PARENTHOOD, and the guy writing the document WORKED FOR YOUR DAD and produced the document in his official capacity, in your DAD's DEPARTMENT.
Now, ironically, where your dad did not actually describe any ideas as 'dumb', to be fair, the Elliot piece does. But it is frankly undeniable that Planned Parenthood, under the direction of your father, was considering a wide range of population control measures. If this entry does not reflect that truth, then it is only propaganda. 96.61.7.169 (talk) 13:21, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So, it turns out that the website I referenced actually did draw a distinction between the Elliot piece and the actual memorandum, and I didn't catch it. I think I now have it represented correctly. 96.61.7.169 (talk) 13:59, 4 May 2016 (UTC)\[reply]
Rohan, my father was actually making a case *against* a government population control policy, in favor of letting families voluntary choose their family size:
"The hypothesis ... is that the achievement of a society in which effective contraception is efficiently distributed to all, based on present voluntary norms,
would either result in a tolerable rate of growth, or go very far toward achieving it. If this hypothesis is basically confirmed, it would negate the need for an explicit U.S.
population policy which goes beyond voluntary norms." He then raises a series of questions that would need to be asked of any policy proposals regarding the effectiveness or fairness of these proposals *if* voluntary family planning was deemed insufficient to reduce fertility to replacement levels. The table is to illustrate the question of who the proposal would affect.
His questions at the end (Do we need one - and if so, how soon? Is the anticipated gain worth the likely cost?) indicate he clearly indicated that he felt that voluntary family planning was sufficient and that any other policies were untenable.
Now, you may differ in your interpretation, and you may disagree with his viewpoint, but, as you pointed out, Wikipedia is for facts, not interpretation. My purpose in adding this paragraph to the bio was to provide a link to the original memo and let people decide for themselves. Feel free to post your interpretation elsewhere on the Internet, not here. Dave DaveJaffe (talk) 02:57, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Differing interpretations cuts both ways, my friend. As I said, you are not actually presenting 'facts' but rather your interpretation. Notice that I let your interpretation stand. All I did was add the words "Defenders say..." to your own comment, because that is precisely what is going on. You are putting your thumb on the 'facts' to get the weight of the interpretation to go a certain way. If you're going to post YOUR interpretation as a defense, it is only fair to include what the critics say in response.
Even if you instead wrote this, it would be more honest: "This memo has been cited to accuse Jaffe and Planned Parenthood of supporting such measures as compulsory abortions and sterilizations, which were among the proposals referenced. However, defenders say the table was merely a listing of current proposals, with sources documented, not the policies of Planned Parenthood."
But you insist on stating it as a matter of definitive fact that "the table was merely listing current proposals". Which begs the question. As for your comments here in defense of your interpretation, I confess that I understand why you would strain to put the best spin on them, but they smack of conflict of interest.
For example, "indicate he clearly indicated that he felt that voluntary family planning was sufficient and that any other policies were untenable." No, it does not 'clearly indicate'. If he clearly felt that way, then he would have actually stated it, and you would have quoted it. You had it closer when you said, "the effectiveness or fairness of these proposals *if* voluntary family planning was deemed insufficient." The memorandum ends with two questions regarding an explicit population policy in the U.S.; "Do we need one -- and if so, how soon?" and "Is the anticipated gain worth the likely cost?"
This is very important: the memorandum ends at this point. He does not answer the questions in either direction. Instead, he prefaced the two questions with a call for "these studies" which "would be necessary for a clear answer." Your characterization of the memorandum as taking a position is completely out of line. He plainly does not. The critics, as it were, are fully justified in having their accusation fleshed out if you're going to assert otherwise.
I also need to call attention to a remark that absolutely cannot be true, even on your own telling. You say, "my father was actually making a case *against* a government population control policy" which is patently false, since as you yourself included earlier in the page, he participated (with Berelson) in the Commission on Population Growth and the American Future. How could he possibly be making a case against such a policy when just 2-3 years later he is working side by side with Berelson (the target of this very memorandum, as you will recall) to propose exactly that? And we know that he endorsed that report: (http://www.popline.org/node/508367) quote:
Persons seeking an improved health system and those seeking rapid reduction in population growth can work in harmony toward the stabilized population recommended by the Commission of Population Growth and the American Future, Frederick S. Jaffe said at the annual meeting of the American Public Health Association.
Seeing as the man was in charge of the world population division of Planned Parenthood, tasked with advancing public policy on population issues, in asking us to believe that he did not support government involvement on such things is asking us to believe a completely absurdity. You will absolutely lose if this comes to arbitration. See below.
Now as to a question of propriety. I would remind you that you are not the God of this entry. If you consecutively revert three times that will amount to 'edit warring', which is forbidden. You are NOT the final arbiter of what ends up on this page. You either work with me here, or you may find that the WikiGods intervene. I don't think you want that, because if people do actually read the memorandum for themselves to see what the fuss is about, it is not likely that your INTERPRETATION is going to prevail.
I certainly agree that people should be able to make up their own minds. That's why I linked to the complete PDF of the memo which is much more readable (while retaining your own preferred link to images, I will mention), and didn't remove it. But the critical site also provides links to the various primary sources that are cited by the memorandum. If you really want people to make up their own minds, you do no one any favors by blocking them from access to the full story. Rohan Rides Again96.61.7.169 (talk) 03:35, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that a WikiGod has arrived. 96.61.7.169 (talk) 03:40, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Look Rohan if you want to rehash the family planning/population policy debates of 40+ years ago create your own page or use the existing Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_population_planning. This section of Frederick Jaffe's bio treats one memo and really just one table within that memo. All we know about the table is this: "The attached table attempts a rough sorting of the principal measures discussed, according to whether their impact would be universal or selective." Period. Full stop. It doesn't endorse or denounce any of them. That is a fact. Everything else you write about it is your interpretation or speculation. Again, do you really think he endorsed encouraging increased homosexuality?
As for repeatedly reverting edits we are both guilty of that. I'm not concerned about a fair review of this. Your use of the word "defender" is highly subjective. Your link to a page entitled "The Jaffe Memo: A Sinister Agenda on a Single Page" is certainly not the objective source that Wikipedia requires (and note the "single page" - you are talking about the table). And why do you remain anonymous? DaveJaffe (talk) 03:38, 6 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's really amazing that you continue to simply revert. Amazing. My use of the word 'defender' is not highly subjective. There is no question that this is what you are doing. You are making a bald statement as if it is incontrovertible fact, when really you are doing what the defenders do. There is nothing subjective about it. It is objectively what you are doing, and it illustrated by the fact that you can't even allow that little thing to go.
As for repeatedly reverting edits, you're wrong. You are guilty of that. I am innocent. I have repeatedly tried to please your sensibilities. You? You simply revert.
And as for the site I'm linking to, well, just as I couched your assertion in the phrase "defenders say" I also made sure to put the words 'critics' say. That is a site of a critic, is it not? It is irrelevant that the site has a position, because the whole point of the reference is to substantiate what critics say! 75.100.7.42 (talk) 04:47, 6 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Anonymous you can't "defend" a table any more than you can defend a table of baseball batting averages. I have created a PDF of the memo per your suggestion so there is no longer any need for your links. I have asked Donner60 how to engage someone to help us settle this. DaveJaffe (talk) 18:44, 7 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that you are completely misrepresenting both the memorandum and the controversy. It makes sense that you would do that because of your admitted conflict of interest, but it doesn't make it right. When you say "it is just a table" what you are really saying is, "In my opinion, it is just a table." Your idea of 'letting people make up their own minds' without linking to people who have a critical viewpoint essentially turns this entry into a propaganda piece, ensuring that only one side of the debate is heard, and implying that only one side of the debate has a legitimate point. Again, understandable that the son of a vice-president of Planned Parenthood would want to do that, but not by any stretch of the imagination 'objective.' I look forward to kicking this up to the Wikigods. -- Rohan Rides Again 75.100.3.186 (talk) 23:52, 8 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I know my 'anonymous' status unnerved you for some reason, so now you can rest easy knowing that RohanRidesAgain (talk) 00:38, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I have to say that I'm a little amused that you have gone fishing for 'dispute' resolution. Donner allowed that I made a fair point, this after reverting one of your summary edits. Now I see another person has reverted your edits, too. Do you really think people are going to think you are engaging this topic reasonably, when you state emphatically, "I'm not concerned about a fair review of this." You've only made two very small concessions, but taken every opportunity to sanitize the entry to make it sound like your father (and Planned Parenthood) are innocent victims of a smear campaign. I, on the other hand, would be pleased to see a fair review. Even as I respect the loyalty behind it, I understand why you would not. You need to compromise by being more transparent about your bias (eg, allowing phrases like "Defenders say..") and accurately representing what the critics say. In short, accurately representing the controversy you took the trouble to document in the first place. Otherwise, I fear a 'fair review' will end up with you banned from editing altogether. Probably not what you want. RohanRidesAgain (talk) 01:06, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Rohan, I have appealed this to the Third Opinion process. You may make your case here.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
My father, Frederick S. Jaffe, was a Planned Parenthood Vice President who in 1969 wrote a memo to a colleague listing a series of questions that would need to be asked about any population policy proposals. To illustrate one question regarding selectivity of impact in the U.S., he created a table of many of the current proposals of the time, from many sources (with attribution) and ranked them on that criteria. Opponents of Planned Parenthood have seized upon that table to claim that, by not denouncing some of the options, Planned Parenthood in fact supported such policies as "Compulsory abortion of out-of-wedlock pregnancies". They ignore the fact that the table also includes such wacky ideas as "Encourage increased homosexuality" and "Chronic Depression". Again, most of these proposals came from sources outside of Planned Parenthood.
The gist of what Rohan and others are attempting to add to this page is circumstantial evidence tying Jaffe/Planned Parenthood to such policies and including a link to a a page entitled "The Jaffe Memo: A Sinister Agenda on a Single Page". He/they further have added information about the Commission on Population Growth and the American Future (of which Jaffe was one of nine consultants) without any original citations, relying on a single quote from Jaffe that can be interpreted in many ways.
Rohan and I disagree on three key points:
he insists on referring to "defenders" of the memo (or really the table in the memo). I claim one cannot defend that table any more than one can defend a table of baseball batting averages
he includes a lot of interpretation based around the population policy debates of 40+ years ago that is not germane to this topic and can be placed elsewhere on Wikipedia, to be reviewed by people who know about such things
he insists on adding links to the aforementioned site. This site is not the kind of original source required by Wikipedia. I have a link to the complete memo for anybody to read and decide for themselves. There is no need to include his link; if anyone wishes to see his point of view they can just Google "Jaffe memo" and they will find it.
I would like the wording changed back to my original wording, which acknowledges the controversy, states the *facts* of the matter simply, and includes a link to the memo
Please note that this discussion is ineligible for WP:3O as there are currently more than two involved editors. You are welcome to pursue other forms of dispute resolution. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 12:47, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
On the one hand, User:Doniago is correct that Third Opinion does not apply because there are more than two editors involved. On the other hand, I will offer an opinion, not as a 3O volunteer, but simply as an editor. First, User:DaveJaffe should not be edited the article at all, but should be requesting edits on the talk page. Second, the above discussion is nearly incomprehensible because of its length. See too long, didn't read (and I mostly didn't), and walls of text. Concise arguments are almost always more persuasive than very long ones. Third, I would suggest that the next step may be either moderated dispute resolution at the dispute resolution noticeboard or a Request for Comments. In either case, it would be advisable to keep the arguments concise. DRN volunteers will tell participants to be civil and concise. In an RFC, if the introductory question isn't short and to the point, the RFC is a waste. (There is often lengthy and tedious discussion after the question for an RFC that is ignored, but the question must be concise.) Robert McClenon (talk) 14:10, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed on all counts. Well-said Robert. DonIago (talk) 14:19, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:Doniago, Robert McClenon: The Third Opinion page states that "3O is usually flexible by allowing a few exceptions, like those involving mainly two editors with an extra editor having minimal participation". It's hard to tell since the other editor here is anonymous but most of the changes have been made by someone who identifies him/herself as "Rohan" in the Talk page. Yes there is a lot of talk on this page but I believe I have summarized my case concisely in the section immediately above. I would like to resubmit for a Third Opinion. Thanks, DaveJaffe (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:06, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to resubmit I won't stop you, but I think you may have WP:WALLOFTEXT issues discouraging anyone from getting involved. DonIago (talk) 15:20, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Since Third Opinion is non-binding, it is hard to see what the importance is that the requester attaches to getting a non-binding Third Opinion, especially when alternate forums have already been suggested. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:14, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, although the above question is more concise than the walls of text, I don't think that I can respond reasonably to the above questions without parsing the lengthy posts both by David Jaffe and by Rohan, and the posts by both editors are essentially incomprehensible due to their length. I have already advised requesting either moderated discussion at DRN, where the moderator will demand that editors be concise and civil and comment on content, not contributors, or a Request for Comments, which will require that the lead question be concise (and the tedious and lengthy discussion that follows an RFC can be ignored by the closer in favor of strength of arguments). You can resubmit the Third Opinion request if you wish; it will still probably be declined due to multiple editors. You can try resubmitting, but, since Third Opinion isn't binding anyway, why is it so urgent to get one? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:27, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just tell the man to try compromising? He wants to be the sole and final arbiter of what appears on this page, just because it concerns his father. That's the bottom line. Tell him to stop it. RohanRidesAgain (talk) 23:56, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Having read the wall of text and the Wiki page, it only seems fair that if the original post is going to mention the Jaffe Memo and the controversy that said critics are allowed to elaborate.
Rohan wrote:
"Critics say that is besides the point. In the full memorandum, Jaffe states that the purpose of his writing is to give Berelson "ideas on necessary and useful activities relevant to formation of population policy". Clearly, then, he must believe that some of them, at least, are "necessary and useful". Additionally, the table from the memorandum was re-used just a year later in a document produced by one of Jaffe's staff members, Robin Elliot. That document explicitly states,"
Here, Rohan provides quotes from Jaffe using supporting documentation. Those are facts. If personal opinion is of concern, I could see taking out "Clearly, he must believe that some of them, at least....are "necessary and useful."
If that line is removed, the paragraph would simply quote Jaffe's own words as given to Berelson. This seems fair. As demonstrated it is also factual that Robin Elliot use the same document. His relationship to Jaffe is clearly important for the memo but also provides a better understanding of the aforementioned critics and controversy.
One last comment: If we are worried about Rohan being biased and we are interested a fair representation of the facts, it only seems prudent then that the original poster identifies his relationship to Frederick S. Jaffe. This allows the readers to know that personal bias may play a role, but not necessarily so.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As the author of the site that Rohan has been linking to, I have to say that I am finding this debate very entertaining. I'm not going to participate in the discussion, but I did want to say a few words in defense of my site as a source to be linked to.
There is no other site on the web that provides as much information about the Jaffe Memo as mine. Not only did I carefully re-construct the table itself, but I also tracked down nearly all of the sources that Frederick Jaffe referred to, and I provided links to them. If someone really wanted people to be able to make up their own minds, it isn't only the memorandum that needs to be read, but also the sources that Jaffe was synthesizing is critical. My site has those sources. No other site does.
There are probably a hundred sites that are critical of the 'Jaffe Memo.' Look into it, and you will see none that have the number of primary sources and research specifically on the memo that I provide.
I agree with Rohan that DaveJaffe misrepresents what the actual debate is, but I want to be clear about the purpose of my site. I clearly say on the home page: "Whether or not they were implemented because of the advocacy of Planned Parenthood’s ‘Population Control’ division (Frederick Jaffe being in charge of that division), is not the concern of this site."
The goal of my site is not to nail Frederick Jaffe so much as it is to expose the entire population control paradigm, of which I'm afraid to say, the any objective review of the FACTS show Jaffe was immersed in.
The Jaffe 'memo' provides a handy, one-page illustration of all the different kinds of things that people were discussing at the time--both inside and outside of Planned Parenthood. It is not a question of "rehashing the family planning/population policy debates of 40+ years ago", as DaveJaffe puts it. It is about being honest about just what those debates were, which is the whole point of the the memo in the first place. To deny this is to completely skew the record. 'Propaganda,' I think, was the word.
The word Rohan used was 'sanitizing.' That's exactly what DaveJaffe is trying to do.
As an olive branch to DaveJaffe, I will happily let you write a response which I will post to my site. If you had other primary sources (which according to you will exonerate your father), we could upload them to the site, too. Send me a message through Wikipedia. I don't mind having the record 'straight.' It's the whole point of my site.
(Rohan, you may contact me, too. I have more material which has not yet made it to the site.)
This is from something you quote (www.jaffememo.com/excerpt-from-piotrows-world-population-crisis-re-jaffe/156.htm) on your site:
In November 1967 the sociologist Kingsley Davis rocked the family planning world with a forceful article in Science magazine insisting that family planning could not solve the population problem.
Motivation, not birth control, was the critical factor, he argued. Motivation depended not on contraceptives or on family planning as he narrowly defined it, but rather on laws, customs, and social policies that in most countries still encouraged childbearing.
Many of the population activists were horrified. Planned Parenthood came down firmly on the side of family planning. As Fred Jaffe put it, the sociologists’ stress on motivation or in the United States on the "culture of poverty" was a "cop-out" to excuse the fact that family planning was still not easily accessible for poor disadvantaged women and that social services were still inhibited in making it available.
In what way are Davis and Jaffe on the same side of this debate? Paul Jaffe (oldest son of Frederick S. Jaffe) PaulJaffe (talk) 17:53, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I made it clear that the purpose of my site is much broader than the issue on this Wikipedia entry, which involves accurately describing what the actual controversy is. I do thank you for noticing, however, an example of the depth of original source material available on my site (with much more to come). One could say that someone is more likely to make an informed judgement (eg, 'make up their own mind') by perusing my site, as opposed to merely linking to the memo in isolation.
I am not interested in hashing out the nuances of this on a Wikipedia talk page. For one thing, I'm not even sure they would allow it. For another, I already have a forum for expressing my viewpoints. Speaking of that forum, I will extend to you the same offer I did to your brother. If you would like to submit something to be posted on the site, I would be happy to make that happen.
Email me at director@athanatosministries.org to take me up on that offer. AnthAthan (talk) 21:00, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why this matter was handled through the Dispute Resolution procedure, as if there were only 2 people involved. I weighed in on this and agreed that Rohan's version more accurately explained the controversy. Denying both sides the ability to include factual information, per my suggestion, is unfair and clearly shows bias in favor of the original post. PediaWikiMaster (talk) 01:21, 22 May 2016 (UTC)— PediaWikiMaster (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
You had the opportunity to comment at the DRN. The moderator - and I'm in agreement with them - said that your interpretation of the memo is WP:FRINGE. Waiting until the DRN is closed and then reverting the article back to your preferred state appears disruptive and tendentious. Keri (talk) 10:20, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
and this is where you were wrong, for a second time. First you were wrong accusing me of having a second account and then you were wrong suggesting I was putting forth an "interpretation of the memo." My comments had nothing to do with one's interpretation and everything to do with allowing someone else to contribute the other side of the conversation. The fact that you were focused on "my interpretation of the memo" only shows you were not paying attention, or you were and didn't care. PediaWikiMaster (talk) 22:27, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:FRINGE. Your interpretation of the memo is that the minority-viewpoint conspiracy theory attached to it, despite no support in over 40 years by reliable, mainstream scholars, deserves to be given more weight and notability than it merits. As for the suspicious simultaneous arrival of 3 brand new single purpose accounts, 2 of which definitely share a geolocation, I remain sceptical about coincidence. The fact is that you continue to edit tendentiously and argumentatively, and have yet to bring anything constructive to the table. Keri (talk) 00:21, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Additional parties are allowed to comment at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Having known that the matter was being discussed, you could have taken part. As it is, my advice to all parties is to stop edit-warring and to discuss here. If discussion is inconclusive, a Request for Comments is advised. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:01, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My involvement in this is very simple. I started seeing traffic to my site from this one, and I came by to see what was happening. Therefore, my experience with wikipedia's rules and so on is not extensive. That said, I was under the impression that the DRN procedure was only for cases where there are 2 editors. I probably wouldn't have contributed had I known otherwise, but up to this point, I thought it was limited to only Rohan and DaveJaffe.
Frankly, I would not have said anything at all, except that earlier in the conversation... after it was finally recognized that DaveJaffe should not be editing at all, and only making requests... and after it was plainly stated "this discussion is ineligible for WP:3O as there are currently more than two involved editors" ... Robert, you mentioned that there could be a 'Request for Comments.' I naively thought that I was providing a service, then, in providing a comment. For my efforts, I managed to get myself investigated, even though I hadn't even made any edits! (And I was exonerated, I will add. As is only right.)
And now here you are again saying that we could put the matter before other commenters to resolve! Isn't that what was happening?
I see a little note by poor PediaWikiMaster saying "he has made few or no other edits outside this topic." Why is there no similar note before DaveJaffe?
I don't know much about Wikipedia, but as near as I can tell, he has not edited any other page, either. Surely if the fact that PWM has made few other edits outside this topic somehow discredits him, then the fact that DaveJaffe hasn't either, discredits him.
Isn't it funny that DaveJaffe reverted Rohan's revisions over and over and over again, but PWM has only made 2 edits, and got hit with the charge of 'edit warring'? Speaking of that, wasn't it Rohan that alerted DaveJaffe to the fact that was engaged in an "edit war" in hopes of winning some concession from him? And what has that good faith effort got him?
Perhaps you are unaware just how invested DaveJaffe is in making sure only his view is expressed. He has been going around the Internet for years posting the exact same text as this wikipedia entry at various sites.
For what its worth, neither Jaffe have taken me up on my offer to post a note to my website with their viewpoint and perhaps exculpatory documents. But why should they? Wikipedia is already allowing them to distribute their preferred narrative. Given DaveJaffe's clear conflict of interest, it is doubtful that anyone will have the stamina to follow through on making this entry genuinely balanced.
(PS, I do think it was a good move to put the abortion warning on this article.)AnthAthan (talk) 22:31, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Two admins not involved in this dispute have found that your and Rohan and PediaWikiMaster's interpretation of the memo is WP:FRINGE. For the record, I was not involved in creating those 3 pages. They appear to be copies of this page. I was not even aware of them until now. DaveJaffe (talk) 22:52, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What do you guys not get? I did not offer MY interpretation of the memo. I simply stated that the author should tell people who he is and his relationship to the subject. Seems fair to me. Additionally, I simply suggested that both sides be represented fairly. Considering the author brought in "critics," it would only be fair that critics are allowed to assist. It appears that Wiki actually isn't interested in both sides being presented and that authors can write with whatever bias they want, with impunity. At one time, one of the pages had a warning about the "relationship" of the author to the subject. But, that since has been removed or I can no longer see it. What I've learned from this discussion is that "x" gets to make as many edits as they want without it being warring. But if "y" does it, and asks the author to present both sides an opportunity, "y" gets banned. PediaWikiMaster (talk) 02:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Dave
Who are the two admins who have found the interpretation of the Jaffe memo to be fringe? The editors at DRN are not admins. It doesn't matter anyway from an administrative standpoint whether any particular interpretation of the Jaffe memo is fringe, because what does matter in terms of administrators is discretionary sanctions. Fringe positions in general are not subject to discretionary sanctions. Pseudoscience in particular is subject to discretionary sanctions, and is irrelevant. However, discussion of the memo and its author are subject to discretionary sanctions because they do involve abortion. So it isn't relevant if an interpretation of the memo is fringe. Who are the two admins? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Are you telling me that there are not one, but two DaveJaffe's going around editing pages on Frederick S. Jaffe?
Care to revise your story?
As for my interpretation, all I said was something to the effect that I didn't think you were representing the controversy fairly and honestly. I haven't shared my views, as I recall. To be perfectly frank though, my friend, the addition of the phrase "defenders say" is an obvious improvement, that should be self-evidently uncontroversial.
I didn't read the argument at the DRN, and I didn't read the 'fringe' link, so I don't know what the parameters are. I'm not as invested in this as much as you clearly are. It strikes me though that it is not logically possible for it to be 'fringe' as all they were trying to do is accurately describe the controversy. How can it be 'fringe' that the 'critics say' one thing and the 'defenders say' another, as this very talk thread proves both characterizations perfectly?
Despite this my offer still stands. AnthAthan (talk) 23:34, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't refer to blatant dishonesty in Wikipedia unless you are prepared to prove it at WP:ANI after having read the boomerang essay, and after bearing in mind that it is difficult to prove dishonesty, which involves motive. Don't refer in passing to blatant dishonesty on a talk page. That is a personal attack, and a severe one. You have been warned. Remember that discretionary sanctions are available. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. I know you are trying to keep things from getting unruly. I withdrew the remark. I apologize in advance if merely deleting it was the improper way to do it. Feel free to fix as you deem necessary.AnthAthan (talk) 12:49, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, just wow. That's all I have to say about all this. My eyes glazed over reviewing the conversation. I tried to contribute to the DRN and was told to 'wait.' Well. My time ran out and I couldn't. Now I will probably have to wait for the fall term to start, unless I get lucky. But I don't even know what I would be allowed to do. We run every thing by the son of Frederick Jaffe from here on out, then? I'm just reserving the right to return to this when I get a chance. As far as I'm concerned, the entry as it stands completely misrepresents the controversy. Better to delete all mention to it at all if you aren't going to do it fairly. And by fairly I mean at minimum the man's son shouldn't be the one writing it. Shouldn't there be a neutrality message on the site now, since it is 100% written by him?
For anyone else who comes along in the meantime, please know I stand by my statement that if the 'defenders say' something then you should actually make sure the reader of the entry knows what it is the DEFENDERS say and what the CRITICS say. Right now, its just revisionism.
Are there any reliable, scholarly sources that - at some point in the last 47 years - have cited the memo as evidence that Jaffe/PP supported these as measures/policy to be compulsorily applied in the US? If not, you're interpretation is simply a modern day conspiracy theory, not backed by anything resembling credible facts. You say that the article is "just revisionism"; that's incorrect, and what you are engaged in is actually negatationism: applying "the techniques of research, quotation, and presentation for deception of the reader and denial of the historical record." Keri (talk) 12:00, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"In recent years a 1969 memo written by Jaffe has been a source of controversy on the Internet. The memo, written to Bernard Berelson, head of the Population Council, included a table that summarized many proposals from various sources regarding population control. This memo has been cited to accuse Jaffe and Planned Parenthood of supporting such measures as compulsory abortions and sterilizations, which were among the proposals referenced. In fact, the table was a listing of current proposals, with sources documented, not the policies of Planned Parenthood.[citation needed]
because there were no secondary WP:RS, and the WP:PRIMARY source wasn't that excellent either (Google Drive can be any sort of prank). So, what secondary WP:RS are there? "On the Internet" is not the same as "Should be included on WP." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:10, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It was discussed at WP:DRN, which as its own description says is non-binding and for informal discussion. Additionally, it was dicussed four years ago. Policies change, and decisions that may have been appropriate at the time may not be appropriate now. DonIago (talk) 23:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
From my point of view, it's because a WP-article is supposed to be, for the most part, a summary of secondary WP:RS about the topic, and per that standard, the bit I removed was not good WP-content. I see that Keri haven't edited for years, but the other two may have opinions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 23:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Gråbergs Gråa Sång First of all, I obtained a copy of the original memo directly from Planned Parenthood, scanned it and put it on my own Google Drive for everyone to see. No one has ever contested the authenticity of it. Nothing has changed regarding a memo that is 51 years old and from a person who has been dead 42 years in the four years since it was extensively litigated and the wording I had was approved. DonIago's edit are just a rehash of an old conspiracy theory intended to claim Planned Parenthood supports "encouraging homosexuality" and "compulsory sterilization", which, if you read the original memo, with its attributions of where these suggestions come from, is laughable. If you or DonIago need to waste everyone's time by re-litigating this please restore the page to its pre-December 10 version while the litigation is underway. User:ThePlatypusofDoom and User:Robert McClenon, please help me again! — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaveJaffe (talk • contribs) 00:15, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:DaveJaffe - I have not yet retrieved and reviewed the discussion at DRN. However, I will comment briefly. First, you, User:DaveJaffe, still should not be editing the page directly. We told you that four years ago, and we will tell you again as necessary. Second, you have repeatedly reverted the article with the statement that the page is supposed to be locked. I do not know why you say that the page is supposed to be locked, but pages in Wikipedia are very seldom locked for extended periods of time, and I do not see any indication that this is a special case. Wikipedia certainly does not lock a page for four years at the request of a family member. Third, tag team editing is strongly discouraged. I will be notifying both you and your brother that the article, and related articles, are subject to discretionary sanctions. You were notified of those in 2016, but maybe you have forgotten, just as you may have forgotten that you should not be acting as a gatekeeper of the page. I will be reviewing the previous discussion shortly. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:11, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Robert McClenon I apologize if I misunderstood the instructions. The Talk page had a big Locked notice on it (which apparently was changed today) so I assumed that the content discussed at length four years ago on the Talk page was also locked. I won't do any more editing and I'll ask my brother Rick not to as well, but I think my request is reasonable to re-establish the page as of Dec 10 while we have the whole discussion over again, which it appears these folks are requesting. Thanks!DaveJaffe (talk) 01:35, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, User:DaveJaffe. The article may be restored to December 11, but not to December 10. You may not roll back the edit made by User:Doniago on December 11, who removed a section on the Jaffe memo that was marked as unsourced since 2018. You should not have been editing the article directly, and you should not be editing the article directly. Do you want me to request a partial block against your editing of Frederick S. Jaffe? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:19, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've checked for sources, and the closest to WP:RS I've come up with is
I'm assuming noone is going to argue that jaffememo.com is a WP:RS, but the interested can find a Jaffe memo article on Conservapedia. So in conclusion and in summary, I think my removal was quite reasonable. But of course there may be other sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:53, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Robert McClenon We made some small revisions to the text of the Jaffe Memo section and found the required sources. Please make these changes for us. Also, can you remove the "citation needed" next to his birth and death years in the first paragraph? Other Wikipedia pages don't seem to require such citations. Thanks for your help!
The Jaffe Memo
In recent years a 1969 memo written by Jaffe has been a source of controversy on the Internet. The memo, written to Bernard Berelson, head of the Population Council, included a table that summarized many proposals from various sources regarding population control. This memo has been cited to accuse Jaffe and Planned Parenthood of supporting such measures as compulsory abortions and sterilizations, which were among the proposals referenced.
In fact, the table was a listing of then-current proposals, with sources documented; and with further sourcing provided in a concurrent piece by Berelson [9]. They do not represent the thinking of Jaffe [10] in his capacity as a Planned Parenthood official.
[10] Jaffe, FS. "A Strategy for Implementing Family Planning Services in the United States," American Journal of Public Health 1968 Apr; 58 (4) 713–725.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1228383/pdf/amjphnation00060-0099.pdf
I can't comment on the memo itself, but regarding removing the request that the birth and death years be cited, please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. We do not and should not make edits based solely on the argument that other Wikipedia pages handle a matter in a similar manner, as that only establishes that they may themselves need changes. I would hope it would be easy enough to provide citations that verify this data. DonIago (talk) 06:53, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How do sources from 68 and 69 support "In recent years"? The text you want to include should be a summary of the WP:RS you have. No WP:RS = no text in the the article. See also MOS:DATED. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:11, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
DonIago We are trying to find an online source for the birth year but the Washington Post obituary you referenced lists his age from which you can work backwards. Is that good enough?
Gråbergs Gråa Sång The memo was written in 1968, thus the supporting documents are from that time.
Robert McClenon Please remove "In recent years a" from my requested update to the page.
Thanks!
DaveJaffe (talk) 16:21, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, hope the last couple of days have been enjoyable. I added the DOB-ref, it's a good one.
About the memo text, per your latest suggestion:
"A 1969 memo written by Jaffe has been a source of controversy on the Internet. The memo, written to Bernard Berelson, head of the Population Council, included a table that summarized many proposals from various sources regarding population control. This memo has been cited to accuse Jaffe and Planned Parenthood of supporting such measures as compulsory abortions and sterilizations, which were among the proposals referenced.
In fact, the table was a listing of then-current proposals, with sources documented; and with further sourcing provided in a concurrent piece by Berelson [9]. They do not represent the thinking of Jaffe [10] in his capacity as a Planned Parenthood official." My emphasis
Where are the WP:RS that supports the bolded text? And if there are none, what is the basis for mentioning the memo at all? Nothing to try to "reply" to, so no WP-article text. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:17, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Robert McClenon We did a lot of additional research and have come up with new wording for the Jaffe Memo section that we think will satisfy Gråbergs Gråa Sång's requirement for documentation of the controversy around the memo, going back to the early 70s. We even found a letter from Jaffe to Senator Alan Cranston from 1973, clarifying that neither he nor Planned Parenthood endorsed the proposals in the table. Please add the following text to the Frederick S. Jaffe page:
A 1969 memorandum written by Jaffe has been a subject of controversy for most of its existence.
The memo, requested by Bernard Berelson, head of the Population Council, included a table that compiled and classified a list of then-current ideas -- from various quarters -- of how to achieve population control. The table, referring back to the memo, was then added to an extensively-sourced 1970 review [10] that analyzed these proposals.
This published version of the table was then detached from the review, reprinted and publicized [11] by a third party, and presented as the memo itself.
Over the years, other parties have followed suit. In this form, the table -- dubbed the Jaffe-Berelson Memorandum [12] or simply the Jaffe Memo [13] -- has been widely circulated. It has been cited to accuse Jaffe -- and by extension, Planned Parenthood -- of supporting such measures as compulsory abortions or sterilizations.
Despite these claims, the coercive items listed in the table did not represent the advocacy [14,15] or the thinking [16] of Jaffe; or his work [17] as an official of Planned Parenthood.
Of the controversy, Jaffe stated that "the memorandum makes clear that neither I nor the Planned Parenthood Federation of America advocates any of the specific proposals embodied in the table which go beyond voluntary actions of individual couples to space and limit births." [14,15]
In the memo itself, Jaffe suggests that "the achievement of a society in which effective contraception is efficiently distributed to all, based on present voluntary norms, would either result in a tolerable rate of growth, or go very far to achieving it. If this hypothesis is basically confirmed, it would negate the need for an explicit U.S. population policy which goes beyond voluntary norms." (p. 4)
The original memo is available online [18] or in the report [19] of a 1973 congressional hearing.
[11] Family Planning Services and Population Research Amendments of 1973: Hearings Before the Special Subcommittee on Human Resources of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare, United States Senate, Ninety-third Congress, First Session, on S. 1708 ... S. 1632 ... May 8, 9, 10, and 23, 1973; pp. 199-200. http://www.google.com/books/edition/Family_Planning_Services_and_Population/ZiZymMlC8HkC
[12] Oversight of Family Planning Programs, 1981: Hearing Before the Committee on Labor and Human Resources, United States Senate, Ninety-seventh Congress, First Session, on Examination on the Role of the Federal Government in Birth Control, Abortion Referral, and Sex Education Programs, March 31, 1981; pp. 119, 124. http://www.google.com/books/edition/Oversight_of_Family_Planning_Programs_19/cOpJP083dv0C
[15] Family Planning Services and Population Research Amendments of 1973: Hearings Before the Special Subcommittee on Human Resources of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare, United States Senate, Ninety-third Congress, First Session, on S. 1708 ... S. 1632 ... May 8, 9, 10, and 23, 1973; p. 492. http://www.google.com/books/edition/Family_Planning_Services_and_Population/ZiZymMlC8HkC
[19] Family Planning Services and Population Research Amendments of 1973: Hearings Before the Special Subcommittee on Human Resources of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare, United States Senate, Ninety-third Congress, First Session, on S. 1708 ... S. 1632 ... May 8, 9, 10, and 23, 1973; pp. 493-501. http://www.google.com/books/edition/Family_Planning_Services_and_Population/ZiZymMlC8HkC
Neighborhood Review Thanks for cleaning up the formatting. Would you please post the above section (I'm not allowed to since the subject is my father)? Thanks, Dave Jaffe DaveJaffe (talk) 17:11, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Neighborhood Review Thanks again for cleaning up the formatting. Are you still planning on posting the Jaffe Memo section? Thanks, Dave Jaffe DaveJaffe (talk) 22:53, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Jaffe conceived these radical suggestions and submitted them for approval. He was prepared to push them further if the other methods he suggested failed. 2601:245:4680:1836:29D3:DD7D:8A45:9ACA (talk) 05:27, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
