Talk:Frog Skin/Archives/2021/April

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Not Flecktarn

I cannot see the similarity of German Flecktarn to US frog skin. Flecktarn stands much more in the tradition of dotted Waffen-SS patterns.Joan Rocaguinard (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Flecktarn is mottled and FrogSkin is mottled, thus the similarity. IQ125 (talk) 18:59, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Look: maybe 90% of all the caouflage patterns in the world are mottled. So you can certanly talk about a huge typological family of mottled patterns. But the style or kind of design of frog skin is a very concrete one, and it is not "similar" to, say, Italian telo mimetico, or Soviet Amoeba, or Swiss Alpenflage, or US woodland, all of them beign mottled someway. There is no styling relationship between all of them, besides of being based on some kind of dotted or mottled shapes. So being, there is a distant typological relationship between frog skin and Flecktarn in the same sense that there is between Flecktarn and Amoeba, not in the sense that there is a (more or less) closing relationship between frog skin and Australian DPCU. That is a simple question of classifying. The wording in the article seems to imply there was some kind of influence of frog skin upon the design of Flecktarn, and that's far from true, as Flecktarn can be described as an heir of Waffen-SS patterns. What I mean is: the kind of similarity between frog skin and Flecktarn is the same shared by the most of camouflage patterns.Joan Rocaguinard (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:17, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello and please relax, Frogskin is the mottled predecessor of the mottled Flecktarn and others. Take care. IQ125 (talk) 16:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Do you really think so? Well: as you please.Joan Rocaguinard (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:26, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

IQ125, Ummm, no.Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Duck hunter

Duck hunter pattern is just another variation of the original Frog Skin. If you want to discuss Duck Hunter in-depth you will have to write an article about it. This is not the correct place for it. It has been mentioned under variations in the Frog Skin article, that is sufficient. Good luck IQ125 (talk) 12:20, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Um, no, Duck Hunter was the commercial original, and Frog Skin was the nickname for the US military's take up of the pattern. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect, Frog Skin was the first pattern and Duck Hunter came later as a "similar battledress pattern" or variation of Frog Skin. There are many variations of Frog Skin, see the section in the article about the many others. I going to revert it back again. You should write a separate article about Duck Hunter, it does not belong in the Frog Skin article, except for a one sentence mention under variations. Duck Hunter pattern is not the Frog Skin pattern, which was created for the marine corps. It is like saying Frog Skin is German Flecktarn, both are separate camouflage patterns, with Flecktarn based on the Frog Skin pattern. Do you understand now? Really, please write a full article about Duck Hunter, you seem quite passionate about it! Good luck. IQ125 (talk) 16:48, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Norvell Gillespie designed Frog Skin, reliable sources

Please do not patronise me. Leaving Duck Hunter aside for the moment (it is an unofficial name for the same pattern, so it would be against policy to write another article), there is absolutely no doubt at all that Frog Skin was designed by Norvell Gillespie. Could you please read the quotes from the two books I cited and quoted, and see for yourself that this is so. He designed the pattern, and it was adopted for military use. The books are far more suitable as references than the reference you have restored (from Camopedia, probably not a reliable source). Here is the text, and as it applies to Frog Skin, I am not sure why you are disputing it:

The Frog Skin camouflage pattern was designed by a civilian, Norvell Gillespie, the garden editor of Better Homes and Gardens magazine.^[1]^[2]

Here, so everyone can see the quotations in the references, are the refs themselves.Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:00, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

References

^ Forbes, Peter (2011). Dazzled and Deceived: Mimicry and Camouflage. Yale University Press. pp. 194–195. ISBN 978-0-300-18178-4. in the USA, a horticulturalist and the gardening editor of Better Homes and Gardens, Norvell Gillespie, developed the first mass-produced US Army uniform. It was called frogskin and was reversible: a summer pattern (with more green) on one side, a winter one (with more brown) on the other. This uniform was not popular with the troops because the double fabric was hot to wear. In the print edition (2009) this is page 180.
^ Newark, Tim (2013). The Little Book of Camo: The Art of Disappearing. Osprey Publishing. p. 56. ISBN 978-1-4728-0293-4. Experiments in camouflage, however, had been conducted by the US Army's Corps of Engineers since 1940. A winning design was produced by Norvell Gillespie, a gardening editor for Better Homes and Gardens, which was dubbed 'frog-skin' pattern, as it imitated a natural amphibian camouflage of rounded shapes in green and brown.

Frog Skin is NOT Duck Hunter, they are not the same camouflage pattern. Frog Skin is the Marine Corps camouflage and Duck Hunter is for hunters, they are different patterns for different people. I would suggest you add a separate paragraph in the article about Duck Hunter and leave it at that or better would be to write a separate article about Duck Hunter and interwiki link the articles. IQ125 (talk) 17:08, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Um, I have dropped that stick already, please read above. I'm asking to restore references about the origins of Frog Skin. I would also like to remove or replace the dead links and unreliable sources which I have flagged in the article. Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:16, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

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[Forbes2011-1] Forbes, Peter (2011). Dazzled and Deceived: Mimicry and Camouflage. Yale University Press. pp. 194–195. ISBN 978-0-300-18178-4. in the USA, a horticulturalist and the gardening editor of Better Homes and Gardens, Norvell Gillespie, developed the first mass-produced US Army uniform. It was called frogskin and was reversible: a summer pattern (with more green) on one side, a winter one (with more brown) on the other. This uniform was not popular with the troops because the double fabric was hot to wear. In the print edition (2009) this is page 180.

[Newark2013-2] Newark, Tim (2013). The Little Book of Camo: The Art of Disappearing. Osprey Publishing. p. 56. ISBN 978-1-4728-0293-4. Experiments in camouflage, however, had been conducted by the US Army's Corps of Engineers since 1940. A winning design was produced by Norvell Gillespie, a gardening editor for Better Homes and Gardens, which was dubbed 'frog-skin' pattern, as it imitated a natural amphibian camouflage of rounded shapes in green and brown.

[1]

[2]