Talk:GNewSense/Archive 2
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JGXenite ;Technobadger Thumperward you are NOT impartial.
It seems to me that these are all different nicknames for the same person. Anyway I just want to point out to anyone arriving to this Wikipedia article that Chris Cunningham and the "other" mentioned are so evidently contradicting themselves.
Mr. Cunningham first admits that the use of GNU/Linux or just Linux is based according to him that on which term is the most used. So I just mentioned the fact that his employer Sun Microsystems uses the term GNU/Linux as an example that GNU/Linux is also widely used. But when I showed that to him then Mr. Cunningham and "jam" say that that is the opinion of his employer and that he has his own opinion. Then you are clearly accepting that you are engaged in deleting the term GNU/Linux just because YOU have a different opinion on how the system should be called and actually not based on any kind of consensus or logical or impartial decision reached after consultation with impartial and well informed experts on this subject.
If you go to the online Encarta encyclopedia which is owned by Microsoft Corporation even there the system is called the GNU/Linux operating system. In fact they mention and use also the word Linux. So why do you want to delete GNU/Linux? It is very clear that though you claim to be "neutral" you have taken sides with those people that mainly because of antipathy to the ideas of the Free Software Foundation and the GNU project simply want to attempt to mislead the general public into believing that the whole system was created by Linus Torvalds. And why you sympathize with him? Because he is a man that does not truly believe in Free software and allows software to become proprietary because that is how many companies make money. Linus Torvalds allows "official" Linux kernel that contain non free software. It is thanks to GNU programs such as the GNU C compiler that Torvalds got from the Free Software Foundation he was able to produce the Linux kernel. The Linux kernel alone does not do anything useful. Every computer user needs many more programs besides just the kernel if he wants to type even just a one page letter. So most of the applications bundled with the "kernel" come from the GNU project and the Free Software Foundation. And most are distributed with a license created also by the Free Software Foundation the famous "GPL". If the system had been created by Linus Torvalds then why didn't he create his own distribution license??? Simply he could not do that because in the first place to create his program the Linux "kernel" he had used software covered by the GNU GPL!
I am sure that you are the kind of person who would like to have access to the code of a program that is almost or actually completely finished and then just add a few lines of your own code and then pretend to claim the authorship of the whole program as if it had been just you who did it all and then try to charge users a lot of money just to be able to run the program.
If you really wanted to be honest and "neutral" as you claim to be the right and wise thing for you to do would be to allow equal mention of both names for the system we are talking about. But of course you are not going to do that. Because you sympathize with the ideas behind the names "Linux" and "Open source". And you work for a company that pays your salary selling mainly propriety software. But at least your employer seems to agree to call the system GNU/Linux. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bald Eeagle (talk • contribs) 22:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Firstly, I am not Chris Cunningham or whoever else you think I might be. Your claims are completely unfounded, and I would ask that you stop making such accusations as you cannot back them up.
- Secondly, do you claim to be impartial to the subject? Clearly not, since you feel the correct term is "GNU/Linux" and seem to be making it your life's work to convince anyone else that that is the correct term. Personally, it seems to me that the GNU/Linux vs Linux debate is completely nonsensical, and if nothing else, splits a community that should be united for the sake of the whole project!
- As has been said time and time again, yet you seem to ignore, somewhere in the past (I don't know where or when, because I wasn't an editor then) a consensus was reached that the term "Linux" should be used throughout Wikipedia. Therefore, going around changing everything to "GNU/Linux" just confuses those who come to Wikipedia for information and goes against that consensus.
- Bald Eagle, perhaps instead of highlighting the faults of others, you should look at your own faults. Instead of contributing to this encyclopaedia, you seem to be causing more harm than good. Instead of going around mouthing off at other editors, why not try and help improve Wikipedia? ~~ [Jam][talk] 00:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Response to Jam on GNU/Linux vs Linux debate
Jam
First I am not the one who makes claims about impartiality and then go around deleting the contributions of others because then do not fit my preconceived ideas and then use non existent justifications of "consensus" as a basis to do that. Since it is you and Mr.Cunningham who take that initiative please at least indicate exactly where are the documents where such a discussion took place where a large enough number of people took part and if there was any vote to decide about the terms to use. These are things to be done not lightly.
Of course that I along with many other people want to help and contribute to share the knowledge we have about certain subject with others but it is the editor who proceeds to modify delete systematically who has to be serious and respectful and show us the document that backs his claims that legitimize his actions.
What is really outrageous is that there can be one person who comes to wikipedia with a "project" aimed at breaking some kind of "record" and just go around the encyclopedia and systematically change contributions.
I do not believe that there was ever and consensus reached and that even if one may not like it the debate over whether to use GNU/Linux or just Linux is far from over. Since there is a divided opinion on that matter the right thing to do as happens when things like that take place in other areas of life the two terms should be used.
It is more confusing to someone coming to get to know the operating system to just see the name Linux and only references to Linus Torvalds and the later on as one gets beyond the surface find the fingerprints of the Free Software Foundation and something called "GNU". Such as why is the Linux kernel which was created by Linus Torvalds and other programmers released under the GNU General Public License (GPL) if GNU had nothing to do with the creation of Linux? Why if the entire operating system is presented as being the work of Linus Torvalds one finds within the code of most programs the GNU GPL that comes from an organization in the United States called the Free Software Foundation?
In the film REVOLUTION OS even Linus Torvalds says that without the programs from the Free Software Foundation such as the GNU C compiler it would have been impossible to create Linux and most of the "open source" software. So why not say the truth and allow the use of the name GNU/Linux?
Again there was never any such consensus on forbidding the use of the term GNU/Linux and replacing it with Linux. In fact beyond the articles presented here in Wikipedia outside in the real world as more and more people and organization get better informed the use of the term GNU/Linux is used more. This happens with governments and International organizations around the World. One example I can tell you is UNESCO. If you go to a newsstand there are magazines that are called GNU/Linux, in bookstores and libraries one can find books that are titled GNU. Of course one can find also others called just Linux. It is more confusing for a neophyte who wants to learn history and the operation of the operating system to use the word Linux than GNU/Linux. When anyone tries to download a software that works on Linux most of the times it will be released under the GNU GPL. So if GNU has nothing to do with Linux why is software given to me showing me this GNU GPL license???... a neophyte beginner will wonder.
The real reasons why the term Linux as well as others such as "open source" is being pushed is that as the founders of the "Open Source Initiative" have expressed in books and interviews is that by avoiding the term GNU and the philosophy it carries with it you make the operating system more palatable to corporations and the business community. It all comes down to a matter of money and business.
Many people are afraid companies will not invest in software that brings to mind ideas of freedom, such as that of free software which is not talking about software without charge, "gratuit" but software without restrictions to the user. I have noted that many people that use the term Linux are involved in fact with companies that try to sell some software or programming service. It is interesting to note that even Linus Torvalds when he first released his kernel he did not use the GNU GPL license. It was a proprietary program that only him could legally modify. It was only later that following the legal advice of one of his friends that he changed to the GPL license. The obvious reason is that he could not use his kernel program which was proprietary at first in combination with the GNU operating system that was released under the strict conditions set by the GNU General Public License and then try to sell the entire system because he would be violating the terms of agreement of the GPL covered programs he intended to use with his kernel. That would have ended with him in court for copyright violations.
It is known that is one of the reasons Torvalds does not like the GNU GPL because it does not allow him to take free software made by others mix them with his own programs make it all proprietary then claim whole authorship and become rich in the process. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bald Eeagle (talk • contribs) 09:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not even sure where to begin with that, but it is nice to see that you wrote me a personal reply - NOT! (see Talk:Linux#Where is that "consensus"? - look familiar?)
- Perhaps you should state exactly what "affiliations" you have with the FSF and GNU, since you do not seem to be impartial yourself. Aside from my use of Linux, I have no official affiliations with the FSF, GNU or any company that would prefer the use of Linux or GNU/Linux or any other phrase. My opinion is my own, and even though I have been using the term Linux for years (that is what I was introduced to) I would never consider changing to use the term GNU/Linux as 1) it is a mouthful 2) why should GNU get all the credit? 3) how many "newbies" will know the term GNU/Linux over Linux?
- Yes, GNU has contributed many good tools to the project, and should be credited for that, but not in sharing the Linux name. Can you imagine if Microsoft was forced to have to include every company that had contributed some tools to Windows in their name, it would be even longer than their current Windows names by around a dozen extra names!
- ~~ [Jam][talk] 10:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear Jam,
First I have no affiliations with any company or organization of any kind. I am just an ordinary computer user who like many out there came by chance across this operating system you love to call Linux. I have spent time and money to learn the basics of the system and I am always learning more about it. So I am not trying to sell anything or to convert anyone.
I want to share with people coming for the first time to use the operating system is that if he or she wants to find the origins of the operating system that some call "Linux" and some call GNU/Linux it is found in the GNU Project which as I learned was used by people such as Linus Torvalds and others who later created the Open Source group. Why do people learning about the system can not enjoy the same right to know as Linus had that many tools can be obtained freely and directly from the FSF website without having to pay one cent? Of course Torvalds and anyone who collaborates to develop software deserves credit. But so does the FSF and the GNU project. But if you delete any mention of GNU how can you be fair then? The reason why this operating system could make such a great progress is because the software and the documentation has been freely available. But if the new users get directed into other directions, and we end up having to pay a company each time we want to get information about the operating system, we are going to lose that what made the system possible in the first place. When Torvalds was a young student without much money to spend on expensive books or software, he could just go to the Internet and get for free software and documentation from the GNU project. So why not let others do the same by leading them to the right place?
Other than that I have no other motivations. And you? Bald Eeagle (talk) 12:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The intro, again
Left this comment on user talk:Mattl, but repeating here to justify the revert:
I've reverted this change. Articles aren't written from the point of view of their subjects, and an objective appraisal of gNewSense at this point would be that it's an Ubuntu variant. Whether that makes it a "variant of the GNU operating system which uses the Linux kernel" or not, Wikipedia refers to such things as "Linux distributions" pretty consistently, and allowing projects to use their own terminology decreases Wikipedia's consistency and makes it more confusing to casual readers.
I see this change has swiftly been reverted, but I reckon there's reasonable grounds for going back. Chris Cunningham (talk) 10:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- The largest contributor to gNewSense is GNU. GNU is also the largest contributor to Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. This is an encyclopedia, so our duty is to represent the facts. The lack of acknowledgement of GNU mostly occurs in the advertising campaigns and communication strategies of some companies that have a commercial interest in undermining the public's awareness of software freedom issues. Wikipedia is not an arm in these communication strategies, and mirroring advertising campaigns is not Wikipedia's aim. Just the facts, please. It's GNU. --Gronky (talk) 10:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- The usual spiel. Articles are not written from the point of view of their subjects, and Wikipedia should refer to all "variant of the GNU operating system which uses the Linux kernel" by the same term. Overwhelmingly, such things are referred to as "Linux distributions" in the wild. Wikipedia is no more of an "arm in the communication strategies" of that minority which believes that all Linux distros incorporating GNU software should be referred to as "variants of the GNU system" than it is of some nebulous company (which I am, apparently, implicitly involved with) which seeks to "undermine the public's awareness of software freedom issues". Consistency and objectivity are the goals here, and this talk page is not an appropriate forum to argue that Wikipedia should change its stance. Chris Cunningham (talk) 10:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- gNewSense represents the first official FSF/GNU supported distro since Debian GNU/Linux. The fact is, gNewSense is an attempt to release the GNU Operating System for people to use. It differs dramatically from typical "Linux distributions" in that its goals are not convieninece, but freedom. This should not be understated, as there are virtually no distributions of GNU/Linux currently without proprietary software. I'd argue that not all operating systems with Linux as a kernel are born equally, and that gNewSense represents a change in approach to the norm, and therefore the edit I made was correct. Mattl (talk) 11:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Then the article should present the project's goals in this way, and state that this is the position of the project. It should not present this information in this format in the article lead, because this is writing the article from the point of view of the project. I shouldn't have to explain why this is undesirable from an encyclopedia's perspective. We don't allow articles on commercial distros to redefine the way they present themselves, and nor should we allow it for distros which fight for software freedom. Chris Cunningham (talk) 12:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Please remember to Assume Good Faith rather than talking about "the usual spiel". Although it is correct that articles are not written from the point of view of their subjects it is not correct that articles should misrepresent the facts about those subjects in the name of consistency. To do so discards objectivity and imposes bias. Consistency should be a means, not an end, and here it is only a means to misrepresentation and confusion. - (Rob Myers, not signed in.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.138.4 (talk) 12:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Gronky and I are well aware of each other's respective positions on the subject; I need not take his arguments on faith, though I could have elaborated that rather than addressing my point he was simply repeating a position statement (which is not conductive to debate). "Misrepresenting the facts" would apply if there were actually something being misrepresented, but given that "variants of GNU which use the Linux kernel" and "Linux distributions" are logically equivalent in this case there's no misrepresentation going on by using the non-POV term. The current lead misrepresents facts by presenting them from the project's own POV. Chris Cunningham (talk) 12:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- "Parasitic"? Unless you want to try to convince everyone that Ubuntu has to be referred to as GNU/Linux because of its Debian heritage, I don't think piggybacking titles is going to work. And once again, gNewSense could call itself a banana sandwich if it wanted to, but it still quacks like a Linux distribution. Chris Cunningham (talk) 15:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I honestly don't understand your rationale here. "Confirmed by GNU and Debian"? gNewSense isn't based on Debian. It's based on Ubuntu. The "adware" thing, well, I just don't get what you're trying to say, other than to guess that it's an attempt to discredit Ubuntu for whatever reason. Chris Cunningham (talk) 16:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's true that gNewSense is based on Ubuntu. However, the project itself has goals of producing a single distro that removes non-free software from Ubuntu and Debian[1]. The LiveCD is also built from Debian[2]. This kind of information takes a little digging to find, and it's not yet clear what the distro's goals are regarding Debian, but discussion of Debian seems relevant here, alongside Ubuntu. Technobadger (talk) 17:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I see the intro has now been vetted of any mention of "Linux". I don't believe this is appropriate, because the intro now fails to provide a reasonably complete summary of the article, per WP:LEAD. Chris Cunningham (talk) 15:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- This reads very obviously like a quote is being used instead of prose in order to circumvent having to use the term "Linux distribution" (or, indeed, Ubuntu). I don't see that it's an improvement over the original version, which didn't need a quote and still made the project's position on the name clear. Chris Cunningham (talk) 16:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- No; that's multiple sympathetic points of view, which is a different kettle of fish. Aside from the poor style of using "operating system" twice in one sentence, the phrasing of the project as "combining the GNU operating system with the Linux kernel" in the intro summary breaks from Wikipedia's naming conventions arbitrarily, because this isn't how Wikipedia phrases such a "combination" in any other free OS article. And articles are not written from the point of view of their respective subjects. There was nothing wrong with the objectivity of the previous version. Contentious material should, where possible, be removed. The words GNU operating system are wikilinked in the next section, so they're not being deleted from the article but just shifted out of the intro where they're contentious. Chris Cunningham (talk) 14:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I am not symphatic to either one of them, by mentioning Linux it is the stance of Linux Torvalds choice, by mentioning GNU it is Stallmans stance, so i deny the multiple sympathetic points of view option, and it seems you are willing to open up a whole register of reasons to support your opinion, which is fine, but i think that it should be the other way around that you try to reach consensus about it with the other editors before you remove it, (not the other way around as it is now). Cheers Mion (talk) 15:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Odd reason to change edits.
After reading this I understand why Thumperward is so keen on trying to force everyone here to accept his point of view:
Beginning of quote from Jam's talk page:
"Just weather it out. They're very vocal, but very much a minority. It's odd, normally I take it pretty hard
when I get attacked on here but there's something pretty awesome about being singled out for bending the whole project
to my iron will every few months on Talk:Linux or the like. Chris Cunningham (talk) 11:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, you seem to have become somewhat of a celebrity for having control of the whole project. I feel honoured to be
in the presence of such a person :). ~~ [Jam][talk] 13:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)"
End of quote
Thumperward you do not delete the contributions of others as you say out of a consensus. So far you have not shown anyone here where that consensus is. After reading this it seems clear you do it just because you like to get a lot of attention.
Bald Eeagle (talk) 16:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- No, it means Thumperward is still convinced he is right, however he is the one to deliver proof of that on this page to reach consensus with the other editors. As for the last part Bald Eeagle, that is pure speculation on your side, and sort of a personal attack, which is unjustified. Mion (talk) 18:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia's founder opinion on GNU/Linux
I would like to offer my opinion. The project to excise all references to GNU/Linux is deeply POV and wrong. It should be reverted completely and totally as quickly as possible. Virtually all references to Linux should be references to GNU/Linux. I am certainly unaware of any community consensus which would support the draconian and absurd campaign that has been conducted against the correct naming convention.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The previous message was posted on Thumperward's Talk page by Jimbo Wales the founder of Wikipedia. The topic is in regards to:
Re: your project "Refer to Linux consistently" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Thumperward
Lightedbulb (talk) 12:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- There's ongoing discussion of this issue at Talk:Linux. Both this discussion (and the one on WP:ANI a week back) disagree with this assessment. When this dies down the consensus terminology will be restored. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please stop misrepresenting things and pretending to have consensus (and using a link to a page which doesn't even have the discussion you pretend is your support). The consensus there was that Jimbo's word is not gospel. We all knew that long ago. There is no consensus against the use of the term GNU/Linux. That terms validity just got supported by another long-time/respected wikipedia contributor, that's all. --Gronky (talk) 21:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
- The threads in question are at Talk:Linux#Jimbo Wales, Wikipedia founder, on GNU/Linux and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive369#User trying to use Jimbo comment as a club. The latter in particular points out that, despite your protestation above, you did indeed invoke said comment as an official ruling. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
System Requirements
"gNewSense requires 256 megabytes of RAM, and once installed on the hard disk, needs four gigabytes of hard disk space." Is there a source for this? Anonymous220.237.139.183 (talk) 06:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed, it should be sourced. I'll do that now, thanks. Technobadger (talk) 09:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I changed it to "three gigabytes of hard disk space." as the source says 3, not 4. Perhaps http://wiki.gnewsense.org/Documentation/InstallingGNewSense was changed. 131.170.90.4 (talk) 02:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)Anonymous