Talk:Gates of horn and ivory

Undid version

I undid this version because, as a whole, I did not find it to be an improvement over the previous one. While the current revision contains much new and useful information, it also contains at least one inaccuracy: the opening paragraph asserts that the gates were invented by the author of the Odyssey. While there may have been a poet called Homer who wrote the Odyssey, his existence is not universally accepted in the literary community and it is widely speculated that he may not have existed at all.

Further, the Odyssey as written emerged from an oral history, so the story was known before it was ever committed to parchment (of whatever it was first penned on) so to say the Odyssey's author invented the gates is, most likely, just plain wrong.

I would have changed what I knew to be wrong, but the current revision contains information that I'm unfamiliar with. So, could someone recheck it to insure its accuracy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Troyvarsity (talk • contribs)

Homer may not have existed at all, but "the author of the Odyssey" (whatever his name) certainly did, and what he wrote is the earliest known instance of the use of the image of the gates of horn and ivory through which dreams, true and false, come. The image was evidently invented as a play on words. Greek words. And so it certainly didn't come from the Latin poet Vergil, who here and throughout the Aeneid was imitating the Odyssey and the Iliad.

Virgil did not write of "the Gods of the Dead" in connection with the two gates. He wrote of the Manes. In any case, I don't see why the gods of the dead should be considered to be "Oneiroi", a word that means "dreams", rather than Hades/Pluto/Orcus/Dis and Persephone/Proserpina, both of whom Virgil does mention several times (4 times and 3, respectively) in this book of the Aeneid. Lima (talk) 15:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

To write that Homer invented the image is just plain wrong. You cannot just credit that author because his mention is the earliest reference known to you. And to say the gates are "in origin an image concerning the provenance of true and false dreams" doesn't make it so. You don't know the origin. It is as likely as not that came to represent the "provenance of true and false dreams." Troyvarsity (talk) 18:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

"Virgil did not write of 'the Gods of the Dead' in connection with the two gates". Fine. But what's with the block quote, then? ". . .the other gleams with the whiteness of polished ivory, but through it the Gods of the Dead send false dreams". Troyvarsity (talk) 18:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

1. The article never mentioned Homer. It does not now contain the words "invented" or "origin".

2. A. S. Kline is the author of the block quote. He wrote of the "Gods of the Dead". Virgil did not. Virgil wrote of the Manes. Lima (talk) 19:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

If you want yet another English verse translation of that passage of the Aeneid, here is Dryden's:

Two gates the silent house of Sleep adorn;

Of polish'd ivory this, that of transparent horn:

True visions thro' transparent horn arise;

Thro' polish'd ivory pass deluding lies.

Of various things discoursing as he pass'd,

Anchises hither bends his steps at last.

Then, thro' the gate of iv'ry, he dismiss'd

His valiant offspring and divining guest.

Dryden wrote neither of "the Gods of the Dead" nor of the "Manes". But neither Dryden nor Kline wrote the Aeneid. Its author was Virgil. Lima (talk) 19:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Lines 899-900 are:

ille viam secat ad navis sociosque revisit.

Tum se ad Caietae recto fert limite portum.

Dryden's translation is:

Straight to the ships Aeneas his way,

Embark'd his men, and skimm'd along the sea,

Still coasting, till he gain'd Cajeta's bay.

Tony Kline translated the two lines as:

Aeneas makes his way to the ships and rejoins his friends:

then coasts straight to Caieta’s harbour along the shore.

I don't think these two lines, 899-900, are relevant to the question of the gates. Lima (talk) 04:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Minor pop-culture references

They've been removed. That kind of material doesn't belong here. If you can find some independent sources that discuss the use and significance of the image (as the Eliot reference does), they should be included, but obvious allusions suffuse every facet of human creation, and should not be mentioned unless they are verifiably significant to general perception. Mintrick (talk) 20:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

You've chosen to draw an arbitrary line, named everything beyond it trivial, and taken upon yourself the duty to eliminate all information you perceive to be insignificant. Why not just remove all cited instances after the first known use in the Odyssey? Or after the Aeneid. The information is accurate; and, it seems to me, it is for each user to decide if that information is useful and significant or if it is not.--Troy Varsity —Preceding unsigned comment added by Troyvarsity (talk • contribs) 16:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Oneiroi

I have changed a number of the headers and nabbed a bit of information from the article on the oneiroi. I added one or two references in literature - hopefully I have not turned the page into an unacceptable laundry list of modern cultural references.Npd2983 (talk) 21:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The article is about the image of the gates of horn and ivory: we shouldn't muddy it by bringing in extraneous matter about the Hesiodic mythology of personalized dreams (Oneiroi with a capital O). The dreams associated with the image of the gates of horn and ivory are presented as actual, so-to-speak physical, dreams, as in the dream that Penelope had. The Oneiroi mythology is as out of place in talking of what Penelope says as in talking of Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech or of Hamlet's "But in that sleep of death what dreams may come". Esoglou (talk) 22:39, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The reason I put the bit about the Oneiroi in this article is because I changed the redirects of ivory gate, gate of ivory, gates of horn, and gates of ivory from the Oneiroi article to this one, so from an editing standpoint I thought it must be germane if no fewer than four redirects used to point specifically to the topic of the Oneiroi; however, I am not getting into an arguement about this article's content.Npd2983 (talk) 03:20, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, also for noticing and correcting the mistaken redirects for "ivory gate" etc. Esoglou (talk) 12:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

The Ivory Gate of Dreams

I know wikipedia isnt a request board. But if anyone is willing, can we put in a blip about the Fates Warning band and their 22 minute epic song entitled "The Ivory Gate of Dreams". It is a landmark song among progressive music and was very influential to prog bands such as Dream Theater and their fans. And yes of course it is related. I would myself but as you can see I can't even post with a decent signature. 11:51 June 2011

Borges citation

The citation here for Borges's supposed interpretation is status critical. The citation, which is just named "Nightmares" (an essay by Borges? a book?) redirects to a website that's... confusing. Even if the source for Borges's alleged comment were somewhere in plain view on this, to be frank, aggressively bewildering website, a better page to redirect to said potential source is in order. And that's all hoping for there actually being a place where Borges once said/wrote this. Karneades (talk) 05:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Your comment was more than justified and deserves thanks. I have provided two sources for the text of Borges's remark. Esoglou (talk) 09:28, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Dang

I always thought the difference was because horn is translucent, and lets the true light through.PopSci (talk) 15:47, 1 July 2018 (UTC)