Talk:Gender self-identification/Archive 1

Archive 1

Globalise

I've just expanded the article some, adding detail and references from the Council of Europe and the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. That allowed me to sort the information about how self-ID is treated around the world into its own section and subsections, but also made it apparent that we could do with expanding with more information from other jurisdictions — especially Africa, Oceania, Asia outside India and North America. To that end, I've added {{Globalize}} for now. I can't spend any more time on this article today, but hopefully the presence of the tag might encourage people who know more about those regions to add more detail. Also, I can take a look for some Spanish-language sources another time. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 15:33, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you ! Nattes à chat (talk) 12:20, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Only adults? report

In WP:GOODFAITH, User:NHCLS moved the material about this report away from the section on "Positions of international bodies". In fact, IGLYO is a longstanding network of NGOs, so it's completely appropriate in this section. Rather than fragment our content about international bodies, I'm going to move the content back. If the section grows, perhaps we should subdivide between bodies that are intergovernmental organizations versus bodies that are International non-governmental organization?

AndyGordon (talk) 09:21, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi there @NHCLS and thanks for your contributions. Our section on international charities, now mentions two different reports, from AI and from IGLYO.

My understanding is that these two reports are both self-published primary sources, and that the summaries of these two primary sources are based on your own reading of the sources, including some quotations you have selected from the primary sources to summarise what they say about gender self-identification.

WP:RSSELF says "self-published sources are largely not acceptable" but also that "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications."

WP:SELFPUB says "Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources"

So the reasoning is that these sources are acceptable for the views of AI and IGLYO/Dentons on gender self-identification, as they are experts on human rights and human rights law, respectively. Is that right? (I am trying to get better at navigating Wikipedia policies!)

It would be better to include the views from secondary sources too. Regards, Andy AndyGordon (talk) 18:15, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I mean, I was and still am sceptical about the inclusion of the IGLYO report in the International Bodies section since it is an advocacy group and not an international organisation like the UN or the Council of Europe. But if we're going to have there, then I added the Amnesty report since it's one that I knew existed and Amnesty is, to the best of my knowledge, generally well-respected. As for reliability, Amnesty isn't listed in the perennial sources list (it might be worth bringing up a discussion on the perennial sources article to see if there's a consensus on how to list Amnesty), but I'd assume it would end up being generally considered reliable, just as long as its statements are directly attributed to it (along the lines of WP:SPLC). As for the summaries, I'm mostly just condensing the bullet point lists given in the main summary sections of the reports ("Conclusions and Recommendations" for Amnesty, "Key Findings" for Dentons/IGLYO). NHCLS (talk) 19:20, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @NHCLS. I'm about to try to edit back in some material from the secondary sources re the Denton report. AndyGordon (talk) 15:44, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Provisional Council of Europe report

We are using this source [[1]] several times in the page. The document is labelled "provisional version". It appears to be prepared by a Dutch politician, is published only on the Council of Europe website, and is not reported in any secondary source as far as I can tell. I'm sure we are using it in WP:GOODFAITH but it appears WP:UNDUE to rely on a provisional text with no secondary source. Therefore I propose we delete all content supported solely by this source. AndyGordon (talk) 15:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Good catch. I removed it. It does not seem to meet the "published" criteria of WP:RS due to being provisional. Perhaps at a future time. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:42, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Difference between 'Self-identification' and 'Self-determination'

Hi, i'm currently working on welsh language wici pages for trans topics and have come to an issue with translating these two terms, my current translation (hunanbenderfyniad, if anyone wants to know it) works pretty well for 'Self-determination' and i saw used as a translation for that by the uk gov. However, the other term seems to mean the same thing in practice and i can't easily translated due to language differences, so i was wondering if there is any actual difference in these two terms, mostly in terms of usage. Also they seem to be used interchagably in this article though only one is introduced in the introduction (self-identification). Diolch. LandmarkFilly54 (talk) 19:36, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

As a native English speaker, I agree that these mean essentially the same thing. ℰmi1y_⧼T·C⧽ 08:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of poll data

Re the United Kingdom, this version of the page has info about a couple of opinion polls in Scotland from 2021 for Murray Blackburn Mackenzie and For Women Scotland (two groups broadly against self-id), and another poll from 2018 for PinkNews (whose editorial policy is broadly in favour of self-id).

@Rab V you decided to delete the paragraphs about the first two opinion polls and said: "DUE, and potential bias in poll set up by political opponents". This section has several well-sourced facts about polls and also the 2018 government consultation. YouGov and Survation are reputed polling companies - why does it matter who paid, and in any case we make it clear. It's against WP:NPOV to drop these two while leaving the one paid for by PinkNews.

So please restore the info about these polls, which has been there for over a year, I think. AndyGordon (talk) 18:18, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I'd prefer removing all that opinion polling. It doesn't seem especially relevant or DUE to what should be an overview article about gender self- ID worldwide to list three different opinion polls on one particular Scottish issue. Pinknews is listed in WP:RSP as a reliable source so I was more hesitant to remove that one than the more clearly activist ones, but it doesn't seem especially relevant either. Rab V (talk) 21:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@Rab V The Nordic countries section also describes a couple of polls. The PinkNews poll was for UK not specific to Scotland. The info you deleted was a summary of reliable secondary sources, not direct from what you call the activist organisations. It's useful to readers to see how opinion compares over time and geography on the topic of the article. So please restore the content. AndyGordon (talk) 07:29, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I made a mistake: the source for the Survation poll is the Scottish Daily Express, not considered a reliable source on WP:RSP. Still, the Survation poll is reported by PinkNews Majority of Scots think trans people should be 'free to express their identity' (thepinknews.com)

So, sorry for my mistake, but my proposal stands, amended so that we use the PinkNews secondary source instead of the Scottish Daily Express. AndyGordon (talk) 08:15, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Can anyone else contribute to this discussion? We have not reached a consensus. AndyGordon (talk) 07:32, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Would it be possible to set up a separate subsection capturing worldwide opinion polling on gender self-identification? My only concern then would be that the question of what is meant by gender self-identification might be too heterogeneous across polls. 25Means (talk) 20:42, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Lead doesn't reflect the body

Lead does not summarize the research section, instead of presenting proven facts it attributes different opinions to supporter and opponents. (t · c) buidhe 21:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

The article has expanded significantly since the time it was created, but ensuring the lead and body match hasn't kept up unfortunately. Of course, the existence of different opinions among different groups of people is itself factual content - facts about opinions of a sociopolitical controversial issue. Crossroads ^-talk- 14:24, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Only really mislabelled a "controversial" issue to obsessive men like Crossroads, who are very much in the minority, who spend an inordinate amount of their finite life making editing Wikipedia articles to hurt the trans community. Would get me wound up but then I realise his online habits are just a reflection of how jealous he is that some of us are living our best lives :) 2A00:23C6:8D42:A401:7CBA:9AE0:7773:3C91 (talk) 11:02, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Uruguay

Uruguay needs to be coloured in the map of the Americas since the wiki page states that Uruguay allows self determination 85.187.219.36 (talk) 16:45, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Canada

The Canadian section is out of date. It says that, "As of October 2021, half of the provinces (Alberta, British Columbia, Prince Edward Island, Ontario, and Saskatchewan), and all territories, do not offer anyone not born there the ability to change their legal gender." However as of 2023, Ontario does, and it wouldn't surprise me if other provinces have revised their policies over the past couple years too.

I considered amending the list to change Ontario's status, but we may as well check all the provinces and territories and offer an updated list of provincial policies referencing primary sources from the provincial governments, e.g. https://www.ontario.ca/page/changing-your-sex-designation-your-birth-registration-and-birth-certificate. 2607:FEA8:8620:7400:D83C:4DE5:7A32:BF63 (talk) 03:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)