Talk:Gerard Dewhurst

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vandalsim to this article[edit]

Please don't remove cited material. Banking executive. Chairman and Managing Director, Geo. & R. Dewhurst Ltd, Manchester (presumably that's the cotton trading business); Chairman Vulcan Insurance Company, Manchester; Manchester Royal Exchange; Director of the London Assurance Corporation; Extraordinary Director of the Royal Bank of Scotland and Chairman of Williams Deacon's Bank, Manchester.

WP:WEIGHT, WP:NOTABILITY, WP:VAN and now WP:3RR. Read these it may help you to understand.Murry1975 (talk) 20:40, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right, Einstein, so his own Who's Who entry that is largely autobiographical, he fails to mention the England cap but does mention the banking, and you want to ignore the banking and mention ONLY the England cap? And then you have the gall to accuse ME of vandalism when YOU are removing cited material. REmoving cited material without valid reason is vandalism. Go look in the mirror chap. Tony May (talk) 20:43, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and as an aside, why is it that Wikipedia editors in general cannot carefully read the article in front of them before deciding to "improve" it by either (a) removing valid information or (b) adding false information? Tony May (talk) 20:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You have breached the 3RR rule. By some distance. Here you are not civil. Have you read the above links?Murry1975 (talk) 20:49, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am being perfectly civil given the intense trolling on this page. Have you read the above links? WP:VAND clearly applies to you. As does falsely citing WP:WEIGHT. Now let's discuss content. What exactly are you disputing? Are you still really saying that his largely autobiographic Who's Who, entry, in which he ignores his solitary England cap but mentions his executive career? He was executive of various banks and insurance companies. I assume Geo. & R. Dewhurst Ltd is the cotton company. And this information should be removed from an article that is 3,493 bytes in size? Tony May (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Or you could get your fellow trolls such as "Edinbrugh Wanderer", Adam4267, etc to revert back to the version that only mentions his football "career" (1 cap wonder). Tony May (talk) 21:11, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone, settle down. I take no side in your dispute, but it is clearly a content dispute. Content disputes, as a matter of course, must be settled on the talk page through discussion. I have blocked Tony May for 24 hours, since he was over 3 reverts (but he looked to be the only one). However when he is back, please do discuss the matter here and arrive at consensus before making changes. If consensus proves impossible, I suggest dispute resolution, and would be happy to help set that up. --TeaDrinker (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks TeaDrinker. Hopefully Tony will be more reasonable after his block and we can try to come to a consensus. Adam4267 (talk) 21:34, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There has also been discussion at the WP:Footy project the main problem being that tony didn't provide any sources so material was removed by the time he did he was way over his revert limit and wouldn't admit that any one who's edits other than his wasn't vandalism. All we are asking him is to show us the source now given the one he provided after 5 reverts cant be viewed without subscription he needs to show us the source material. Even with that we need to look at what he is notable for and look at how much detail is needed. At the moment its far too detailed with no source info to view. Also calling other people trolls or constructive edits as vandalism isn't constructive. Hopefully we can come to a sensible conclusion after discussion.Edinburgh Wanderer 21:40, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

His obituary in The Times (31-3-1956 page 10) confirms he was a banker (William Deacon's, Royal Bank of Scotland etc.)and 1 cap for England. He was a Cambridge blue (association football), but it doesn't mention his solitary game for Liverpool. The information added doesn't look very controversial to me. His family owned a cotton trade firm, that's probably where his career started. (As far as I know you can view this in a lot of libraries free of charge, several libraries give you remote access as well.) Cattivi (talk) 22:39, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cattivi, do you have a direct citation please? Giant Snowman 11:04, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like I missed all the drama last night! The issue isn't the content - if he was a banker and/or cotton trader then we should mention it, even though his notability on Wikipedia is through his footballing exploits. The issue is that TonyMay insisted on adding unreferenced information. Adding a bullet point at the bottom of the article saying "Who's Who" is simply not good enough. Please provide a direct citation and we can all go away happy. Giant Snowman 10:58, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and we're a "posse of trolls" apparently... Giant Snowman 11:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems he was a banker at some point, as these links imply: [1], [2]. J Mo 101 (talk) 11:48, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not defending his behaviour. The Times 31-3-1956 page 10: "Mr. G. P. Dewhurst who had been chairman of William Deacon's bank, Manchester, for more 30 years until his retirement in 1949, died on Thursday at the age of 84.

Gerard Powys was born in 1872, the son of George Bakewell Dewhurst of Oughrington Park, Cheshire. He was educated at Repton and Trinity College, Cambridge where he was awarded a blue for Association football, and an international cap in 1884. Joining the family firm of cotton merchants, he soon acquired other directorships in Manchester, and after service in the First World War he became chairman of William Deacon's Bank. He thus carried on a family connexion with the bank which began when his grandfather, George Dewhurst, joined the board in 1855. He was also chairman and managing director of George and R. Dewhurst Ltd. and chairman of the Manchester Royal Exchange, and he was appointed an extraordinary director of The Royal Bank of Scotland. He married in 1897 Mary Brougham by whom he had two sons". That's all Cattivi (talk) 12:35, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, article (briefly) expanded accordingly. Giant Snowman 12:48, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Calling everyone vandals and trolls and reverting everyone seven times who tried to speak some sense didn't help and was hardly constructive. Ok so we have some sources to back the Banker part finally which could of been resolved right at the beginning. How notable is he as a banker id say equally as much as a footballer given above. I don't think the detail that was added previously is necessary. Somewhere in between like what GS has added looks fine to me Edinburgh Wanderer 12:54, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We need to ask "What is it that makes Dewhurst notable enough for a Wikipedia article?" The answer = playing international football for England. Giant Snowman 13:01, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've come to this discussion late but I'll add my 4 pence worth. Dewhurst was probably most notable for playing international football, but I don't suppose that's what got him into "Who's Who". If it can be verified, I see nothing wrong in re-instating everything from the "Who's Who" article. Any biographical article should cover all aspects of his life. If he was a J.P. and chairman/director of various companies and also had a railway engine named for him, these facts should also be mentioned. I personally think that most of Tony May's edits were fine. There's more to life than football. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 13:30, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll re-iterate my view point. I have NO issue with the content in question being incuded AT ALL - in fact I agree that it should be encouraged, to give a fuller biography. It was never about that. What I do have issue with is the constant addition of unreferenced information, and the unfounded accusations towards myself and others of vandalism and trolling. Giant Snowman 13:40, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A simple {{cn}} at the very start would have sufficed. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 13:45, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but TonyMay was invited multiple times to provide sources - he never did - so a CN tag would not have had the desired effect. Giant Snowman 14:00, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I personally think that most of Tony May's edits were fine. So you condone his behaviour of accusing other editors of being vandals and trolls reverting 7 times refusing to cite his sources hardly fine. I appreciate you maybe mean his main space edits but thats not clear from what you wrote. I don't think we need the whole barrel of info he included and given his source could only be viewed with a subscription which he only added at the very end it was totally unverifiable. He's only notable here for being a footballer I'm all for adding the others but not in blow by blow detail its giving to much weight to it.Edinburgh Wanderer 14:16, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]