Talk:Gianni Berengo Gardin

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Unseen books whose titles sound promising[edit]

Please add to this list and subtract from it freely. (No need to add a signature to every change.)

  • Delpire & Cartier-Bresson, Les choix d’Henri Cartier-Bresson. OCLC 53987932
  • La Fotografia e il Neorealismo in Italia 1945-1965. = Photography and Neorealism in Italy 1945-1965. From Luigi Crocenzi to the "Gruppo Friulano per una nuova fotografia" to Mario Giacomelli. 2012.
  • Hill and Minghelli, eds, Stillness in Motion: Italy, Photography, and the Meanings of Modernity. ISBN 144264933X. (2 holdings in worldcat.)
  • Peripheral Visions: Italian Photography in Context, 1950s–Present. ISBN 8881588374. (65 holdings in worldcat.)
  • Russo, ed. An Eye for the City: Italian Photography and the Image of the Contemporary City. ISBN 0944282229. (110 holdings in worldcat.)
  • Il volto della follia. Cent'anni di immagini del dolore. ISBN 8876243933.

What one might guess might be sources, but actually aren't[edit]

Please add to this list freely. (No need to add a signature to every change.)

  • Contemporary Authors, vols 1–338.
  • Contemporary Authors New Revision Series, vols 1–252.
  • Frizot, Michel, ed. A New History of Photography. Cologne: Könemann, 1998.
  • Hacking, Julia, ed. Photography: The Whole Story. Munich: Prestel, 2012.
  • Heine, Florian. Photography: The Groundbreaking Moments. Munich: Prestel, 2012.
  • Hirsch, Robert. Seizing the Light: A History of Photography. New York: McGraw-Hill, 2000.
  • Jeffrey, Ian. How to Read a Photograph: Lessons from Master Photographers. New York: Abrams, 2008.
  • Mrázková, Daniela. Masters of Photography: A Thematic History. Twickenham, Middx: Hamlyn, 1987.
  • Mulligan, Therese, and David Wooters, eds. The George Eastman House Collection: A History of Photography: From 1839 to the Present. Cologne: Taschen, 2005.
  • Newhall, Beaumont. The History of Photography: From 1839 to the Present. 5th ed. New York: MoMA, 1982.
  • Rosenblum, Naomi. A World History of Photography. 3rd ed. New York: Abbeville, 1997.
  • Roth, Andrew, ed. The Open Book: A History of the Photographic Book from 1878 to the Present. Göteborg: Hasselblad Center, 2004.
  • Stepan, Peter, ed. Icons of Photography: The 20th Century. Munich: Prestel, 2005.
  • Turner, Peter. History of Photography. New York: Exeter, 1987.
  • 20th Century Photography: Museum Ludwig Cologne. Cologne: Taschen, 2007.
  • Warren, Lynn, ed. Encyclopedia of Twentieth-Century Photography. 3 vols. New York: Routledge, 2006.

Note on ephemera collections[edit]

Hi Hoary,

I have no idea how much of a bibliography geek you are, so apologies if I'm telling you something you already know. I would expect the files at MoMA and ICP would have things like exhibition announcements, reviews of showings, and perhaps even personal ephemera from GBG. (When I was working on the [still unfinished] bibliography of the Black Sun Press I stumbled across an uncataloged copy of one of Harry Crosby's books of poetry where he had gone through re-editing in crayon, with some surprisingly frank and insightful remarks. He wasn't a very good poet, but, for better or worse, he was good enough to understand exactly how good he was.)

So in a straight-up bibliography answering the question "What has this person written?", sure, those entries shouldn't be included. In a bibliography that includes material written about GBG it still might not be appropriate. However, in a scholarly bibliography, those would definitely get a mention. For a wikipedia article, it'll probably get reduced to "Collections of GBG ephemera are maintained by both the Museum of Modern art and the International Center for Photography." with cites. That may be too much information for the biography article, but I do think it's a good fit for the bibliographical article.

If you would prefer to leave those out entirely, no worries—go ahead and remove them. I'll make a note here on the talk page so I don't forget them and leave it at that.

Lesser Cartographies (talk) 18:32, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I indeed knew what you guessed I'd know (but no apology needed). I've no objection to inclusion of this information, provided that it isn't presented in such a way as to give the uninformed/arrogant the impression that they could walk in to the respective library and demand to see the material just to satisfy a casual (or even encyclopedia-building) interest. (For somebody well on their way toward a doctoral dissertation on GBG, maybe; for most other people, no.) Anyway, your probable reduction sounds fine to me. -- Hoary (talk) 00:22, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Attraverso l'Italia[edit]

Nice catch! Full list that worldcat knows about is here.

Lesser Cartographies (talk) 18:33, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll work on it. But also see "Breath, holding, inadvisability of". -- Hoary (talk) 00:23, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm on it. (Starts whistling happily...) Lesser Cartographies (talk) 03:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 04:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cite to birth date?[edit]

Hi Hoary. The BNF record lists the birth date of GBG as 1930-10-10. I've not seen the day and month specified anywhere else, so I'm a little suspicious, but I can't think of a compelling reason to exclude this from the article. If it is included, does it need to be cited, and if it needs to be cited, how does one go about citing a BNF record? Lesser Cartographies (talk) 22:57, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Offhand I don't know. I'm pretty sure that we'll soon come across some authoritative and simple source for his birthdate; let's wait till we do, and only worry about BNF if we don't. -- Hoary (talk) 23:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Now sourced. -- Hoary (talk) 11:18, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Placenames[edit]

We have a lot of mentions of "Milano", etc. It can happen that a name common in English ("Leghorn", quasi-plural "Marseilles", etc) becomes supplanted by the name used at the place itself, but I don't see that Milano, Venezia, Sardegna etc are supplanting Milan, Venice, Sardinia etc. I'm quite happy with the Italian forms, but other en:WP editors loudly object to any naming that risks troubling "the average reader" (often imagined as somebody remarkably similar to themselves), and I'm pretty sure that there's something in the the long, well-intentioned but (necessarily) dreary MoS that they can wave in their support. So I propose to change "Milano" to "Milan" and so forth (except where quoted, or in titles, etc). Unless there's a reasoned objection. -- Hoary (talk) 10:54, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No objections; that's a good idea.
On a related note, I wasn't mentioning GBG in the bibliographical entries because the vast majority of them would list him as photographer, which gets redundant after a while. If you'd like to include that notation to faithfully reproduce the citations, we might want to regularize the notation: either "Photographs by..." or "Photography by..." or....? Preference? I can go through and clean that up if you like. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 16:17, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, it would save a lot of bytes if one could say something along the lines of "Unless noted to the contrary, the photography in each book listed below is by Gianni Berengo Gardin alone." But I'm not sure that one can make so sweeping a statement merely from evidence such as library records. Plenty of photobooks I am familiar with, which any sane person would say were simply by this photographer or that one, turn out on close inspection to have photos by others as well. (For example, a retrospective of Cartier-Bresson's works is highly likely to have an introduction that includes one or more photos of HCB at work.) Perhaps it's worth saying, at least in the short term, that photography is by GBG: this can be altered or cut later. How should it be phrased? Yes, consistency would be a plus; can I leave the choice as well as the implementation to you? -- Hoary (talk) 00:25, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
On my list. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 07:05, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oskicat etc[edit]

From an SGML comment:

GBG is listed as an author in worldcat but not in OskiCat or the Getty catalog

This hints at bibliographic knowledge beyond mine.

The only union catalogue I know of that complements Worldcat is the Japanese Ci.Nii: here. I'm finding books in Il libro dei libri that are unknown to Worldcat; would anyone [cough] like to look these up somewhere?

Incidentally, I've only just started with Il libro dei libri: there's a lot more in it. -- Hoary (talk) 10:16, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Morire di classe: La condizione manicomiale[edit]

Il libro dei libri shows a German edition, Die negierte Institution (Suhrkamp, 1974). I guess that this is actually the first among

  • Die negierte Institution oder Die Gemeinschaft der Ausgeschlossenen. Ein Experiment der psychiatrischen Klinik in Görz (Frankfurt: Suhrkamp, 1973)
  • La institucion negada: Informe de un hospital psiquiatrico (Barcelona, 1972)
  • L'Institution en négation, rapport sur l’hôpital psychiatrique de Gorizia (Paris, 1970)

and that all of these have the text but not the photos. Certainly copies of these are very cheap via abebooks, etc; very different from the original. -- Hoary (talk) 10:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Surely Il libro dei libri is wrong, or anyway these are instead the German, Spanish and French translations of Basaglia's L'istituzione negata. Rapporto da un ospedale psichiatrico. -- Hoary (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On wikibreak[edit]

Real life is needing all of my attention, and this will likely continue for several weeks. Looking forward to getting back to this eventually. Go ahead and take it to DYK/GA as the spirit moves you; no need to wait for me. Keep up the great work. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 02:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's excellent news: I was starting to worry that you might have been hit by a truck or similar. ¶ This man has books coming out of his ears, it seems. But having started the job of listing them, I'm determined to "complete" it. (Although it won't actually be complete.) I have also amassed plenty of material about GBG. My big problem is that soon I too shall be very occupied with real life. Still, even at my busiest I'll try to keep tinkering with this thing. ¶ Yes, I do rather like the idea of sending it to GA within a month of launching it. -- Hoary (talk) 02:39, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Books removed[edit]

Some of the items in the bibliography look dodgy. Each is written up below as it is removed. -- Hoary (talk) 05:11, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Venezia e le spiagge veneziane[edit]

In this edit, I added:

*{{cite book | title=Venezia e le spiagge veneziane | location=Milan | publisher=Alfieri & Lacroix | year=1966 | oclc=438496948 | pages= | language=Italian}} Text by G. Mariacher, photography by Berengo Gardin et al

Bu OCLC 438496948 merely says that the photography is by (some unspecified) "Berengo Gardin", and the book is not in Il libro dei libro. Removing. -- Hoary (talk) 05:11, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

six books[edit]

I've removed the following:

  • Italo Zannier (ed.). Segni di luce, 3 vols, Longo, Ravenna, 1993.
  • Fotografi italiani. Bolis, Bergamo, 1993.
  • Roberta Valtorta (ed.). Pagine di fotografia italiana 1900–1998. Milan: Charta, 1998.
  • Gli anni del Neorealismo. Turin: Fiaf, [2001].
  • Giovanna Calvenzi. Italia. Rome: Contrasto, 2003.
  • Lucas Uliano (ed.). Storia d'Italia. Annali 20. L'immagine fotografica. Turin: Einaudi, 2004.

This older version shows that it each was added thanks to its inclusion as "Literature" here. All this means is that the photo is discussed (or maybe just discussed) in the particular book. -- Hoary (talk) 06:50, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Vaporetto[edit]

In this edit, I restarted the process of getting the material about this one photograph into shape. This involved removing material carefully amassed by Lesser Cartographies. In order to examine this material, look at this edit. -- Hoary (talk)

  • I looked at the edit and I think you're right: those pointers don't belong in an encyclopedia article. The next time I have free time in NYC I'll try to get my hands on that file and see if there's anything interesting, but the bare fact that the file exists doesn't warrant a mention. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 21:49, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Morire di classe[edit]

Similarly, this edit removes as well as adds material on Morire di classe -- Hoary (talk) 01:15, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

There's relevant material in:

And there seems to be plenty more besides (the great majority of it in Italian). -- Hoary (talk) 06:34, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Split?[edit]

But within an English-language minority is John Foot, "Photography and radical psychiatry in Italy in the 1960s. The case of the photobook Morire di Classe (1969)", History of Psychiatry 26 (March 2015), 19–35), which is freely available (no payment required), which is very informative, which makes it very clear that a number of other people (not only GBG and Cerati) made important contributions, and which debunks some commonly repeated notions about the book. I'm pretty certain that detailed coverage of the book is merited, can be provided, and should not be within this article; that it should instead be its own article (in the categories Anti-psychiatry books, Italian books, Books of photographs, Photography in Italy and 1969 books). What do you think, Lesser Cartographies (as creator) and Lopifalko (as a recent contributor to this draft)? -- Hoary (talk) 13:01, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Nice catch! Yes, I think a split is warranted. You've really done a first-rate job on this article, btw, and since you were to the one to suggest it I consider you to be the "creator". Looking forward to when you submit both the bibliography and the article for feature list and FA status. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • You're too kind, Sir. As I work through what you amassed, I'm consistently surprised by how much there is of it: you really were very thorough. There's a lot more about GBG -- and conveniently for my monoglot self, in English -- within one of the big books of his work that I've acquired since I joined this enterprise. But really, the text should be launched from "draft" to full article status before somebody (probably me) goes through that material. Otherwise I might procrastinate for another year. -- Hoary (talk) 05:46, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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