Talk:Gotse Delchev/Archive 3

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5

"......where the 'V' stands for 'inner' in Macedonian."

How can "V" stand in "Macedonian"(whatever is this) after it comes from the Bulgarian word: вътрешен(vatreshen).Furthermore Macedonian language had never existed till 1944 and the only person who mentions Macedonian language in some writing paper till then later said:"I wrote it as a politician".So before blaiming me that my comment is biased and my statement spreads hate speach just show me one document in "Macedonian".What I wrote isn`t offence but indisputable fact.
On the other hand all documents of the organisation(VMRO/IMRO) without any exception were in literary Bulgarian language(Veliko Turnovo dialect).If someone is going to argue with me about the abovewritten statements I`m waiting to see at least one letter of Georgi(Goce) Delchev which isn`t in literary Bulgarian.--BulgarianPatriot (talk) 15:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Raso

Please, try and explain yourself before reverting. I'm tired of you making constant reverts and claiming "you don't have time to discuss". So you have time to revert but not to discuss? How come? If you have a problem with another editor the only way out of it is discussion. And as I have already told you, you're not the boss around here - you cannot forbid other users from editing articles. Oh, and try using English, ok? --Laveol T 23:59, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Delchev's ethnicity- Macedoian arguements

Just because I've no desire to wage an edit war, first I'd like to discuss here and then do edit the article.I'm asking where are the documents which prove that Delchev had non-Bulgarian ethnicity.From the sourced information in the article and from well-known facts which everyone can find in the web we have the following arguments in favour of the official Bulgarian position:

  • Delchev's family was forced to leave nowadays Macedonia(then Southern Serbia) for being Bulgarian.
  • All descendants of Delchev(in fact of his siblings because he didn't leave children) today live in Bulgaria and consider themselves as Bulgarians.
  • Delchev have always called himself Bulgarian in the documents he left and the Slavic-speaking population in the regions of Adrianopole and Macedonia- Bulgarian
  • Delchev was Bulgarian teacher.
  • Delchev had never written anything in a language different from the Bulgarian one.
  • Delchev was member and later one of the leaders of an organisation whose initial name was Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Committees
  • Delchev's best friends were Bulgarians and they considered him as Bulgarian.
  • Delchev was considered as Bulgarian by the Ottoman Empire.
  • Delchev was considered as Bulgarian leader by the Greeks.
  • Delchev was considered as Bulgarian by a quite authoritative source as "The New York Times".
  • Delchev opposed to direct unification of Adrianopole region and Macedonia with Bulgaria but never said that the local population wasn't Bulgarian.
  • Even some of the most popular historians from Macedonia admit that Delchev had Bulgarian self-consciousness and considered the local population as Bulgarian.


The one and only "argument" in favour of the Macedonian official position:

  • "Delchev used to call himself Bulgarian but in fact Bulgarian was a synonym of Christian."


Taking all the above-written we have one disputable statement, which isn't supported anywhere else outside former Yugoslavia and furthermore even not by all ex Yugo states.On the other hand we have what I wrote at the beginning of my post.Ok, explain me now, please, where is the dispute about Delchev's ethnicity because for me there is nothing disputable here.It's more than obviously that he had Bulgarian national sense and even an idiot should have understood it so far.I can't accept as an argument "Today we feel Macedonians, so you can't tell us that Goce wasn't Macedonian(whatever you understand under this term) because we feel offended".Well, I'm Macedonian as well but only if we refer to my geographic origin but by nationality I'm Bulgarian and I feel extremely offended by the Macedonist propaganda. --BulgarianPatriot (talk) 21:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Delchev used to call himself Bulgarian but in fact Bulgarian was a synonym of Christian Have mercy! you know, there was another (big, bad and ugly, I know) nation in the region which was christian, the Greeks... I think he had other alternatives too! Please, ok, if you want to have a Delchev of yours, try to find better arguments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.177.211.75 (talk) 17:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


Indeed, there isn't even one document showing that Delchev wasn't Bulgarian. We don't want to have Delchev because we have always had him. However, some people's desire to build a national identity is so big that they can't swallow the pill of the reality.--Ivo (talk) 15:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

This article uses a lot of weasel language to propagate the Bulgarian POV

It needs re-write in a more neutral tone. 80% of the pictures on the page serve no other purpose than to prove he was Bulgarian, as if that would be the most important thing to an uninformed encyclopedia reader. Capricornis (talk) 17:49, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

It haven't "Bulgarian" POV, It have one POV. This POV is POV of documents and sources. The World science doesn't know source who define Gotse Delchev like diferent from ethnic Bulgarian. And so a lot of Macedonian user "tried to prove" that Gotse is not Bulgarian. So it is impossible to prove that 2+2=3 because 2+2=4. --Li4kata (talk) 09:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Lichkata, maina, don't get overheated right away. All I was saying is that the article should be more about the life and work of Goce, not proving his ethnicity :) Capricornis (talk) 17:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

:))))))) --Li4kata (talk) 07:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Oh, no Capricornis, he's laughing at you now. The article shouldn't focus on important things; after all, its purpose is to prove his Bulgarinnes... Is that right Li4kata? --iNkubusse? 14:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Which is important things? Let's write for important things. So about ethnicity I see a lot of sources which says that Gotse Delchev is bulgarian and no one source which confirm that Gotse Delchev is not Bulgarian. I think you iNkubusse and Capricornis also see what I see in article. In spite of this sources Capricornis tell me that this sources are here but "not proving his ethnicity" :))). So if I follow your opinion you try to explain me that you can prove that Gotse is all kinds of ethnicity. It is a folly, you can say that Gotse is French, Chinese or African but he has obviously only one ethnicity - Bulgarian. --Li4kata (talk) 08:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for enlightening me. Again, all you're trying to do here is prove he was Bulgarian. On Wikipedia, first we have to ask ourselves, "what is Gotse Delchev notable for?", right? Are you going to answer "For being sooo Bulgarian"? NO! He was an important 19th century revolutionary figure in Ottoman Macedonia and Thrace [..] and one of the leaders of [...] the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization, as the article states. The primary goal of the article is to discuss that matter. Just as Capricornis said, All I was saying is that the article should be more about the life and work of Goce. Of course, it should briefly introduce the issue of his ethnicity and point out the sources (which favour your position, I must admit), but the aim of the article is far from determining his ethinicity. Heck, I myself don't really care about it: he's important to me only as a revolutionary who was fighting against the occupier and idealising an independent Macedonian state. Try to understand that. --iNkubusse? 04:35, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
How could he possibly understand that when he doesn't know any English? BalkanFever 07:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Balkan?!! What is your problem? --Li4kata (talk) 15:14, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Hey, this sounds great: Balkans, what's you problem?! Haha lol =) Never mind, it's just funny. --iNkubusse? 17:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The article is intended to give detailed information about the person to whom is dedicated just like every other article about a revolutionary.However, there are some special circumstances accompanying IMARO, Delchev, Sandanski, Alexandrov and so on.The problem here isn't that the information is inappropriate or irrelevant but that it doesn't cover the official position of Republic of Macedonia.There is neither a Bulgarian POW, nor Bulgarian propaganda but just sourced information.In spite of the fact that there are only documents supporting the Bulgarian position, Delchev isn't presented as Bulgarian due to the fact that he is considered as ethnic Macedonian(descendant of the ancient Macedonians) in RoM.
"The heterogeneous elements in his statements and work have resulted in his treatment as an ethnic "Bulgarian" by "Bulgarian" historians and as an ethnic Macedonian by some historians from the Republic of Macedonia." Would our Macedonian friends mind to inform me where are the heterogeneous elements in the documents he left?Calling himself Bulgarian and Macedonian and using them as equal supports only the Bulgarian view, according to which Adrianopolitan and Macedonian(Delchev) were geographic concepts.Nevertheless, there is an "issue" around Delchev's ethnicity.
The Macedonian Wikipedians advocate for expansion of the article, including more details for the struggle and the cause of Delchev but on the other hand the above-mentioned things are in narrow connection with his ethnicity because he gave his life for the liberation of his people.Then how can be added information about such an important thing when it's "unclear".There is plenty of information, especially about G.D.'s early life and his revolutionary which isn't in the article because it doesn't meet some people's expectations about relations to mythological civilizations and glorious military campaigns from the Balkans to India. --Ivo (talk) 21:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Is anybody able to show a third-party source supporting the Macedonian position? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BG89 (talk • contribs) 15:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Linking

Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context says (amongst other things):

It is generally not necessary to link:
  • Plain English words, including common units of measurement (particularly if a conversion is provided).
  • The same link multiple times. Redundant links make future maintenance harder. A link that had last appeared much earlier in the article may be repeated, but generally not in the the same section.
  • A page that redirects back to the page the link is on. These circular redirects are frustrating to readers.

Ground Zero | t 17:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The reverts

Božinov bring back the previous article as it was. You are deleting a much more reliable source than that your BG sources. And that IP address, can I say that it is yours? -- MacedonianBoy  Oui? 12:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments:
  1. The placement of images is worse in the present version, with the two photos at the top. Please, only one image in the intro.
  2. Using images of old newspaper cuts is a silly trick anyway. If there's anything of worth in an old newspaper text, then by all means cite it as a source. Showing the image adds no value. I propose throwing them all out.
  3. As long as we have contentious editing going on, let's agree on a small point of procedure: Please don't change (or revert) text and images in the same edit. If you want to modify the images, do that; if you want to modify the text, do that. Reason: It makes diffs very hard to read, because if you shuffle the images around the diff view won't show corresponding text paragraphs side by side. Right now, I can't even work out what you've actually been fighting over.
Anon IPs who join in the edit-warring will be summarily blocked and may be checkusered against established editors, if there's a suspicion of block evasion or good-hand/bad-hand behaviour. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
On the first hand I only used the NYT as reference only. Then I saw that the article was full of images and newspapers and I have put the images too. So I have add the reference which is stronger than the BG references (that cannot be seen as web site) and I have organized the pictures. Also, in the article there is only the BG POV so I cannot see where is the Macedonian POV as Bozinov says. And finally there are broken links that must be removed such is the so called Macedonian statements about the BG origin of Goce Delcev. Can you please organize and clean the article?-- MacedonianBoy  Oui? 13:15, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Stop with your insence Macedonistic POV, PLEASE. Jingby (talk)

Someone is nervous?-- MacedonianBoy  Oui? 13:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
The New York Times - May 1903. Article describing the Bulgarian revolutionary Delchev as the real leader of the rebels in Macedonia.
Greek newspaper, Empros - May 1903. Caption of picture reads: “Gotse Delchev, assassinated leader of the Bulgarian bands”
An official telegram, written from the Ottoman authorities to the Turkish Embassy in Bulgaria, May 9, 1903. It contains the phrase: „On April, 22 (May, 5), in the village of Banitsa one of the leaders of the Bulgarian Committees, with name Delchev, was killed“.
The New York Times - May 1903. Article about the death of "sixty Bulgarians, including their leader, Deltzeff."
The New York Times - May 1903. Article describing the killed Bulgarian revolutionary Delchev as the real leader of the rebels in Macedonia.
Diploma of a student from a Bulgarian school in Stip, signed by Gotse Delchev as teacher.
Letter from Gotse Delchev, where he describes himself and his fellows as Bulgarians.[1]
To the boy: Božinov is fine if you like Serbian Latin typewriters (I like them too), but please don't call me Bozinov (Бозинов?), it makes me think you can't spell basic Cyrillic. If you think I'm using IP sockpuppets, you're clearly naïve. Sockpuppetry has never made sense to me, and who would be that stupid to use sockpuppets against someone who is only allowed 1 (one) revert every 48 hours, with a detailed explanation beforehand and a waiting time of 3 (three) hours for discussion? Don't embarrass yourself. Todor→Bozhinov 20:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Božinov I would use any alphabet that I like to use. That is in fact Croatian, just for your info. Now that you know the origin of the letter stop with your childish irony.-- MacedonianBoy  Oui? 20:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Scrap that stupid section

I'm going to scrap that whole "ethnicity" section and invite neutral rewriting - hopefully in much shorter form. The whole section is flawed. If you deal with a historical situation where a population gradually splits off from another and develops a separate identity, to go about asking whether any single individual in that population "really was" the one or the other is fundamentally wrong-headed. By trying to argue for either this or the other answer to this wrong question, both sides in this debate have been caught in the same trap of false premises, of ethnic essentialism.

The whole section therefore makes little sense, and is utterly useless to any reader who doesn't share the ideological obsessions of the two modern nations in question.

It is also heavily POV – not because anything reported in it is necessarily wrong (far be it from me to make such a claim), but because it has been very evidently assembled with a view to amassing "evidence", buttressing up an "argument" – for one of the two answers to the mistaken question. This is not what we ought to be doing. It's agenda-driven, and you can smell it from miles away.

When I say I invite rewriting, I'll also say I cordially invite the usual suspects not to join in. You all know who I mean. This goes to both sides. The question of the ethnicity of Maceonian revolutionaries is utterly boring to the world at large. This section ought to be written by people who are just as bored by it as the rest of the world is. Anybody who feels this question is interesting and worth a lot of debate is ill-qualified to write it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Could you also convey to a certain user that these images are "saved" in the page history and don't need to be here screwing up the section format? BalkanFever 10:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Go ahead without me, I really have no idea how we can make that section work for everybody without being factually inaccurate. Don't take me too seriously, but as far as I know (and I've read a few books on this person to say the least), Delchev never identified ethnically as something other than a member of the Bulgarian ethnicity/nationality, as none of his identifications as a Macedonian convey any ethnic or national connotations, but rather regional. It's simple: the Macedonist idea was not yet extant or strong enough for anybody to have an ethnic/national Macedonian identity. Of course, Delchev clearly worked for an autonomous Macedonia and Thrace, not for a direct (re)unification with the Principality of Bulgaria, but I fail to see how that relates to his ethnicity.
What I mean is that we simply can't write an Ethnicity section of a biography without citing the individual's own words. That would be simply wrong and any omission of those facts would favour the Macedonian POV. Todor→Bozhinov 11:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Well, yes, we can: we can cite a reliable secondary source that makes such a point. Preferably from an author not directly involved on either side of the national polemics. It just takes a single sentence (like what I tried in my rewording, which I think is actually quite close to what you write above: "there are no signs he endorsed such ideas...") and a single suitable footnote (which I'm sure somebody can find and add). The thing that makes it cross the line into POV land is the pile-on of primary sources. What I called source-mongering on some other article yesterday. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Are this secondary sources reliable:

"Even the famous leader of the Macedonian revolutionaries, Gotse Delchev, openly said that “We are Bulgarians” (Mac Dermott, 1978:192, 273, quoted in Danforth, 1995:64) and addressed “the Slavs of Macedonia as ‘Bulgarians’ in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention” (Perry, 1988:23, quoted in Danforth, 1995:64). See: Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe - Southeast Europe (CEDIME-SE), Macedonians of Bulgaria. [1]

Contemporary historians from the Republic of Macedonia (e.g. Academician Ivan Katardzhiev, director of the Historical Sciences section in the Department of Social Sciences in the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts] See: Академик Иван Катарџиев, "Верувам во националниот имунитет на македонецот", интервjу, "Форум": "ФОРУМ - Дали навистина Делчев се изјаснувал како Бугарин и зошто? КАТАРЏИЕВ - Ваквите прашања стојат. Сите наши луѓе се именувале како „Бугари“...";(in Macedonian); in English: "Academician Ivan Katardzhiev. I believe in Macedonian national immunity", interview, "Forum" magazine: "FORUM - Whether Gotse Delchev really defined himself as Bulgarian and why? KATARDZHIEV - Such questions exist. All our people named themselves as "Bulgarians"...") and the director of the Macedonian state archive, Ph. D. Zoran Todorovski, See: "Уште робуваме на старите поделби", Разговор со д-р Зоран Тодоровски, www.tribune.eu.com, 27. 06. 2005, also (in Macedonian); in English: "We are still in servitude to the old divisions", interview with Ph. D. Zoran Todorovski, published on www.tribune.eu.com, 27. 06. 2005, agree with the Bulgarian ethnic consciousness of Gotse Delchev.

Setting the native Macedonian authors aside and concentrating on the first bit: there's probably good material there, but the quoting is botched up. First of all, the sentence as such is plagiarised from the CEDIME-SE report. Then we have third-hand citing: we are citing CEDIME-SE, which is citing Danforth, who is citing Perry. Perry (i.e. Perry, Duncan M. (1988). The Politics of Terror: The Macedonian Revolutionary Movements, 1893-1903, Durham, NC and London: Duke University Press.) does seem to be a relevant academic title and would be worth quoting. More so than Danforth, who writes about modern sociology, not early 20th-century history. Has anybody had first-hand access to Perry? I'd like to see a bit more context to see if that statement is really part of an overall argument to the same effect as we are making. – It would also be interesting to have some international scholar known to be overall sympathetic to the Macedonian side, such as Poulton. Anybody know what he says on the issue? Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't have the Perry source, but I do own the MacDermott book, although it's a Bulgarian translation. If that can be of any help, do let me know. Todor→Bozhinov 13:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

How about this one source: Collective memory, national identity, and ethnic conflict Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian question by Victor Roudometof

Despite the efforts of the post 1944 - Macedonian historiography to present Delchev as Macedonian separatist rather then Bulgarian nationalist Delchev himself has stated in his correspondenece: "...We are Bulgarians..." and .....! Jingby (talk) 14:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

We can do better than that. You are quoting just a footnote in Roudometoff, and the passage that footnote belongs to is a discussion not of Delchev himself, but of the present-day nationalist polemics about him. And that polemics is exactly what I want this article to move away from. You are still quote-mongering, as if you wanted to use quotes as clubs to bat an opponent with. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:03, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Future, you are wrong emphasizing the authonomist idea of Delchev as separatist deviation. I think this is groundless, because, at the beginning of 20th century it was only tactics of IMRO.

See: The Macedoine, (pp. 307-328 in of "The National Question in Yugoslavia. Origins, History, Politics" by Ivo Banac, Cornell University Press, 1984)

...Since the term autonomy traced the Macedonian maze, it is essential to note its sense and reason. Its inspiration certainly belonged to the curious nineteenth-century Balkan practice whereby the powers maintained the fiction of Ottoman control over effectively independent states under the guise of autonomous status within the Ottoman state (Serbia, 1829 – 1878; Danubian principalities [Romania], 1829 – 1878; Bulgaria, 1878 – 1908). Autonomy, in other words, was as good as independence. Moreover, from the Macedonian perspective, the goal of independence by autonomy had another advantage.Goce Delchev (1872 – 1903) and the other leaders of the BMORK were aware of Serbian and Greek ambitions in Macedonia. More important, they were aware that neither Belgrade nor Athens could expect to obtain the whole of Macedonia and, unlike Bulgaria, looked forward to and urged partition of this land. Autonomy, then, was the best prophylactic against partition – a prophylactic that would preserve the Bulgar character of Macedonia's Christian population despite the separation from Bulgaria proper. In the words of an editorial in Pravo (Right), a Sofia newspaper close to the BMORK, the idea of Macedonian autonomy (or separatism) was strictly political and did not imply a secession from Bulgar nationhood. In as much as the ideal of San Stefano was unworkable, the autonomous idea was the only alternative to the partition of Macedonia by the Balkan states and the assimilation of its severed parts by Serbs, Greeks, and even Romanians (who claimed the areas of Vlach minority). Jingby (talk) 15:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Picking and choosing excerpts that accomodate your views does not count. Köbra | Go ahead... make my day! 15:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Inserting random and pointless comments without contributing to a discussion counts even less, so kindly uninvite yourself. Todor→Bozhinov 18:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


Some biased facts for the neutral administrator, who changed the chapter:

  • Delchev have called himself Bulgarian
  • In the documents he left the Slavic-speaking population in the regions of Adrianopole and Macedonia - Bulgarian.
  • Delchev graduated Bulgarian gymnasium.
  • Delchev was Bulgarian teacher.
  • Delchev was Bulgarian officer caddet.
  • Delchev had never written anything in a language different from the Bulgarian one.
  • Delchev was member and later one of the leaders of an organisation whose initial name was Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Committees
  • Delchev's best friends were Bulgarians and they considered him as Bulgarian.
  • Delchev was considered as Bulgarian by the Ottoman Empire authorities.
  • Delchev was considered as Bulgarian leader by the Greeks.
  • Delchev was considered as Bulgarian by a quite authoritative source as "The New York Times".
  • Even some of the most popular historians from Macedonia admit that Delchev had Bulgarian self-consciousness and considered the local population as Bulgarian.
  • The Bulgariannes of Delchev is recognized from MacDermott, 1978:192, 273, quoted in Danforth, 1995:64 and Perry, 1988:23, quoted in Danforth again, 1995:64.

Logical conclusion in the article: he was a men with indeterminate nationality?!? Jingby (talk) 19:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Jingiby, try to read again what I wrote in the beginning. I'm not disputing facts. I'm disputing the relevance of the question you are trying to answer. You are caught up in the same false premises as the people against whom you are arguing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I have added clarifiing sentence supported from secondary source. Jingby (talk) 16:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Future why did you remove over-linking? Just after a week we will see the Macedonists contesting this view again. Jingby (talk) 07:17, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

For another secondary sourse supporting Delchev's view about Bulgarian character of Macedonian Slav population, but in German language, please see: Die Jungtürken und die mazedonische Frage(1890-1918): Mehmet Hacısalihoğlu, Oldenbourg Wissenschaftsverlag, 2003, ISBN 3486567454, s. 54-56. Jingby (talk) 07:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Huh? Those are two different issues. By "over-linking", I mean the bad habit of wikilinking every repeated occurrence of words like country names and so on. I've seen articles with like two dozens of blue links to Bulgaria. That's against the MoS and very annoying to the reader. About the academic quotes, the issue is: quality, not quantity. One ref to a reasonably neutral, reliable discussion in a secondary source. Not piles of literal quotes from primary sources. The only valid strategy against obsessive POV-pushing is not to argue against it, but to ignore it. Pile-on quotations in support of your favourite thesis, be that thesis ever so correct, just create the impression that you need these cheap tactics to push your POV. It will only have the effect of challenging POV-pushers from the other side to try to balance it off with their own. Pile-ups do not make your thesis more persuasive, quite the contrary. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I am going to scrap it. Jingby (talk) 16:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Nationality

We have now as nationality of Delchev in the article macedonian with lack of sources about this statement. Also we have a lot of sources, including secondary about his Bulgarian nationality. Jingby (talk) 11:29, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Surely Delchev was not without nationality. If 'nationality' is used in the sense of citizenship, then it would be 'Ottoman' I guess. If 'nationality' stands for ethnicity, then it would be 'Bulgarian'. The question is, which one? Apcbg (talk) 15:18, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Do you think that Ottoman citizen could study for Officer in Bulgarian military school? Jingby (talk) 16:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I do not think; I just don't have at hand or remember details of his citizenship status. Apcbg (talk) 16:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

No controvercy:

"Even the famous leader of the Macedonian revolutionaries, Gotse Delchev, openly said that “We are Bulgarians” and addressed “the Slavs of Macedonia as ‘Bulgarians’ in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention”; See[:The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, Loring M. Danforth, Editor: Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691043566,p. 64.

"...Goce Delchev and the other leaders of the BMORK were aware of Serbian and Greek ambitions in Macedonia. More important, they were aware that neither Belgrade nor Athens could expect to obtain the whole of Macedonia and, unlike Bulgaria, looked forward to and urged partition of this land. Autonomy, then, was the best prophylactic against partition – a prophylactic that would preserve the Bulgarian character of Macedonia's Christian population despite the separation from Bulgaria proper..." See: The Macedoine, (pp. 307-328 in of "The National Question in Yugoslavia. Origins, History, Politics" by Ivo Banac, Cornell University Press, 1984) Jingby (talk) 11:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

You know there is a controversy, he is considered Macedonian by a lot of researchers and authors, see for example these links: Conflict and chaos in Eastern Europe By Dennis Hupchick , Macedonia By Thammy Evans, A short history of the Yugoslav peoples By Frederick Bernard Singleton, in cases like this one, we should equally present both sides of the story. MatriX (talk) 12:04, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Delchev's political struggle

My opinion is that Delchev was a part of the IMARO political struggle, that ultimately led to the emergence of a Macedonian state, separate from the Bulgarian one, but the separation of the ethnicity was an aim and a result of the Communist strugle, i.e. the National Liberation War of Macedonia in the 1940s. This sentence in the article have to be changed in this way. Jingby (talk) 05:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

According to Ivo Banac: Goce Delchev, the tolerant, wise, and forgiving theoretician of the Internal Organization, himself a former Bulgarian military cadet, was so firmly committed to the idea of an autonomous Macedonia that (in 1902) he took the step of changing the statute and rules of the BMORK and, in a departure from its Bulgarocentric character, renamed it the Tajna makedono-odrinska revoljucionna organizacija (TMORO, Secret Macedono-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization). The TMORO was to be an insurgent organization, open to all Macedonians regardless of nationality, who wished to participate in the movement for Macedonian autonomy. Delchev called for the "elimination of chauvinist propaganda and nationalist dissentions that divide and weaken the population of Macedonia and the Adrianople area in its struggle against the common [Ottoman] foe." Then the TMORO guerrilla units (chetas) started recruiting "Grecomans," Vlachs, and others. Jingby (talk) 06:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Cut the craps

God damn it what is all this confusion of "ethnicity" of Goce Delchev? There is no special "Macedonian" NOR "Bulgarian" ethnicity. "Bulgarian" is just a label for a Slavic speaker on the Balkans that is South of the Serb population. The racial origins will be different in North Bulgaria, Dobrudja, Thracia, Pirin, Vardar, Agean.. etc. The only unifying link is that all these regions is where the massive Eastern Slavic groups migrated into at 5th/6th century.

What matters about Goce Delchev is his national consciousness. At the time there were only 3 nations developing. Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece. Macedonism was only just starting to develop. What is Macedonism? It is the belief that the Slavic speakers in Vardar, Agean, and Pirin (the speakers of the Macedonian dialects, of which the epi-center was in Veles/Prilep) are a manifestation of a new Slavic nation in the Balkans that is neither Serb, nor Bulgarian, but in between, with their own special qualities peculiar to only this region. The identity chosen for this belief is just "Macedonian" , therefore it would be a Macedonian national consciousness.

Many tricks were being played at the time. If you read what Krste Misirkov wrote, he said that Goce Delchev was lying to the "Bulgarianists" that he was a Macedonian-Bulgarian. When he revealed to the Bulgarianists that he wanted just "Macedonian for the Macedonians, regardless of nationality" (Meaning first an autonomous, then INDEPENDENT Macedonia, not unification with Bulgaria) The Bulgarianists received this with a heavy heart but Gotse said, "Don't worry, since many Macedonians are educated in Bulgarian schools with Eastern Bulgar dialects, Macedonia will become practically a second Bulgaria."

Now THERE was the problem. The local villagers in Banitza probably heard the news and the Bulgarianists set up Delchev to be killed because he became a Macedonist.

Clearly, Macedonism failed to spread to the general population of Vardar, Pirin, and Agean. The most likely area of Macedonism reaching solidly would be the Vardar area. SO, since the inhabitants failed to spiritually unify with this "new" idea, this is why the Macedonian lands got carved up by all three countries. Bulgaria turned her back on us and started to make deals with Greeks and Serbs on the division, with out us having any say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.77.209.193 (talk) 07:42, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

More on ethnicity

Quote from the article: "Georgi Nikolov "Gotse" Delchev (1872-1903) (Bulgarian: Георги Николов Делчев, also transliterated as Goce Delčev) was an important 19th century revolutionary figure in Ottoman ruled Macedonia and Thrace."

In my opinion this weasel language is inappropriate, even if it is technically necessary to achieve consensus. Yes, technically the geographical territory he was active in was the Ottoman empire, but his ethnicity is important because it is being used to push modern political agendas.

Apropos this situation is analogous to the issue of the nationality of St. Cyril and Metodius. While their mission was clearly pro-Bulgarian, it is a recognized historical fact that they were Greek and so that article does mention their nationality, despite that that topic is equally controversial (if not more.)

So I'm inviting everyone who cares to start a discussion on Gotse Delchev's nationality. Macedonian and Bulgarian editors, please do argue your position but lets at least agree that he does have a nationality and that (due to political reasons) this is an important fact which should be included in this Wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.183.184.80 (talk) 03:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

We do not need a discussion. The case of Delchev ethnicity is clear more then 100 years!

  • Delchev has called himself Bulgarian
  • In the documents he left the Slavic-speaking population in the regions of Adrianopole and Macedonia - Bulgarian.
  • Delchev graduated Bulgarian gymnasium.
  • Delchev was Bulgarian teacher.
  • Delchev was Bulgarian officer caddet.
  • Delchev had never written anything in a language different from the Bulgarian one.
  • Delchev was one of the leaders of an organisation whose name was Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Committees
  • Delchev's best friends were Bulgarians and they considered him as Bulgarian.
  • Delchev was considered as Bulgarian by the Ottoman Empire authorities.
  • Delchev was considered as Bulgarian leader by the Greeks.
  • Delchev was considered as Bulgarian by a quite authoritative source as "The New York Times".
  • Even some of the most popular historians from Macedonia admit that Delchev had Bulgarian self-consciousness and considered the local population as Bulgarian.
  • The Bulgariannes of Delchev is recognized from leading international researchers of the Macedonian Question as Mercia MacDermott, 1978:192, 273, quoted in Loring Danforth, 1995:64 and Duncan M. Perry, 1988:23, quoted in Danforth again, 1995:64.
  • Delchev personal view was about unification of Macedonia and Thrace with Bulgaria.
  • The Bulgarian ethnic self-identification of Delchev has been claimed as well by all Bulgarian researchers of the Macedonian Question.

Jingby (talk) 15:28, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

If we don't need a discussion, then why doesn't the article clearly state what is Gotse Delchev's nationality? 76.90.30.243 (talk) 06:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

His nationality, like most of the people in the Ottoman Empire would have indicated 'Turkish', in the sense of being an Ottoman subject of the Sultan; regarding his miliet, for administrative purposes he would have been considered as either belonging to the Greek Orthodox or the Bulgarian Exarchate. As for his mission, it was to liberate the region from the Turks; it was not to create some imaginary ethnically pure nation-state. Politis (talk) 16:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Nationality was already present as a concept at the time. Delchev did not identify with the exarchate or the patriarchate, his national consciousness was Bulgarian. Yes, he was an Ottoman subject, but by no means did he identify with the empire that he sought to liberate Macedonia from. Todor→Bozhinov 16:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Todor, but presumably his legal identity would have been that of an Ottoman subject, that is what his identity papers would have said if he travelled abroad. Since the idea of a contemporary geographic Macedonia was only just emerging, did Gocev have a specific idea of the boundaries of Macedonia? I found no such evidence. Or did he include all of Romilia, from the Black Sea to the Adriatic, in his vision of liberated territory? Politis (talk) 12:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I make some clarifications about Delchev's religious denomination. Jingby (talk) 15:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protection required

Because of persistent IP-vandalism and sock-puppetry, I have suggested this article for semi-protection. Jingby (talk) 05:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Mr. Admin. Jingby (talk) 13:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Old style vs new style biographical dates

We just had a few edits trying to resolve a confusion over the birth date, which is sometimes cited in old style (23 February 1872) and sometimes in new style (4 March 1872) [2]. As this seems resolved now, does anybody know if the death date we are currently giving as 5 May 1902 is supposed to be old style or new style? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

He died on May 4 (April 21, Old Style) near Banitsa. Jingiby (talk) 10:38, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, good to know the dates were consistent the way we reported them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:40, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Delchev's regionalism

Hi! Do you think that this quotation is a reason for this text in the article: "Also, by Delchev the term Macedonian was beginning to acquire the significance of a certain political loyalty, that progressively constructed a particular spirit of regional identity."? I can not see there (The Bulgarian loyalties of IMRO's leadership, however, coexisted with the desire for multi-ethnic Macedonia to enjoy administrative autonomy. When Delčev was elected to IMRO's Central Committee in 1896, he opened membership in IMRO to all inhabitants of European Turkey since the goal was to assemble all dissatisfyed elements in Macedonia and Adrianople regions regardless of ethnicity or religion in order to win through revolution full autonomy for both regions) some evidences for Macedonian "regional identity". Regards, --91.216.253.1 (talk) 15:17, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Just read the title. Jingiby (talk) 17:56, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Which title? We have an assertion in the text and probably inadequate (to the assertion) source.--91.216.253.1 (talk) 07:33, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I do not understand your agenda. Delchev was supporter of the motto "Macedonia to the Macedonians". He fought for autonomy of the area, not for unification with Bulgaria. He allowed the inclusion of the non-Bulgarians in the anti-Ottoman struggle. Neither Greeks, nor the Serbians supported such strange ideas. He supported this unusual regionalism, and Delchev developed strong his local patriotism. Jingiby (talk) 13:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with all your sentences and I want to make a clarification only to the latter. In fact, the clarification should be made to the text in the article. There are a claim in the article that Delchev "... progressively constructed a particular spirit of regional identity". The source do not asserts that. The idea for autonomy, the admission of other nationalities do not confirmed the assertion that Delchev constructed a particular spirit of regional identity. This is not the same. Even faithful things can not be proved by sources that do not say that.
P.S. If on the base of his political views, we accept the construction of some regional identity, should we talk about Macedonian-Adrianopole identity?--91.216.253.1 (talk) 15:03, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Did you read 24. Идването на Гоце Делчев в Тракия и някои уточнения по този повод. Идеологическите спорове между Гоце Делчев и Стоян Лазов. Непубликувани спомени на очевидци? Jingiby (talk) 15:20, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for this source. It is interesting, but it does not surprise me with something fundamentally. I red about Macedonian-Adrianopole state (NB!), but I couldn't find evidences for Macedonian (regional) identity. Maybe I have not red carefully. Can you help me, please?--91.216.253.1 (talk) 15:33, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Chek then "Contested Ethnic Identity: The Case of Macedonian Immigrants in Toronto, 1900-1996, Chris Kostov, Peter Lang, 2010, ISBN 3034301960, p. 112: ...The Bulgarian historians, such as Veselin Angelov, Nikola Achkov and Kosta Tzarnushanov continue to publish their research backed with many primary sources to prove that the term 'Macedonian' when applied to Slavs has always meant only a regional identity of the Bulgarians... Jingiby (talk) 15:35, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, this is clear. However I have to remind that we are talking about Gotse Delchev and the assertion that he (maybe?!) "...progressively constructed a particular spirit of regional identity". Please, note that we are not talking about regional identity in this region in general, but about the assertion in the article. Do you have any evidences for it?--91.216.253.1 (talk) 08:38, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Just to specify again - Delchev's Macedonian "regional identity" - progressively constructed, particular etc. :)--91.216.253.1 (talk) 09:16, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Do not delete reliable sources, please. If you don't understand their meaning and their interconnection, I kan't help you. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 09:58, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Please, explain what do you want to say with these sources, how they are related to the alleged Delchev's Macedonian regional indentity etc. I waited several days for this, but you didn't answer. In this situation, the return of the sources should go through further dialogue. I hope you will respect my desire to clarify the situation according the rules and you will not continue with the attempt to impose your POV without explanations. Thank you.--91.216.253.1 (talk) 09:02, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I still have doubts about the adequacy of one or two sources to the question (specifically for Delchev), but the argument for Young Macedonian Literary Society is excellent. I will not read literally the sources anymore. You can go back sometime and reflect on some of them. Regards, --91.216.253.1 (talk) 07:41, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

OK! Jingiby (talk) 08:41, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Legacy section

Materials written by Delchev as well his personal belongings are stored also in the Museum in the city of Stip, R. Macedonia, in the Archivs at the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences in Sofia, Bulgarian historical archive at the National Library "Cyril and Methodius" in Sofia, Regional State Archives in Vratsa, Institute of National History, Skopje etc. Please, it is unduly all of them to be mentioned here. Jingiby 10:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistent/incorrect undue weight trivia added into the lead section

Delchev was member of IMRO between 1894 and 1903. During his own time the Organization had at least three different names. After Hristo Tatarchev's "Memoirs" the first name of the Organization since 1894 was Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (MRO). It is believed by most Bulgarian historians that in 1896 or 1897 this first and probably unofficial name was changed to Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees (BMARC); and the organisation existed under this name until 1902, when it was changed to Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization (SMARO). While part of the Macedonian historians also acknowledge the existence of the name "ВMARC" in the very early period of the Organisation (1894–1896), in the Republic of Macedonia it is generally assumed that in the 1896–1902 period the name of the organization was "SMARO" and it is under this name referred to in the Macedonian historiography. Both sides lack conclusive documentary evidence, as neither of these names appears in the IMRO documents but is known from undated printed or handwritten statutes. It is not disputed that the organization changed its name to Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization (IMARO) in 1905 and it is under this name referred to in Bulgarian historiography. After disbanding itself during the first Bulgarian annexation of Macedonia (1915–1918), the organization was revived in 1919 under the name Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), under which it is generally known today worldwide. The leading section must to be dedicated on Delchev himself, not on the different names of the Organization during his lifetime. They are described and mentioned as into the article's infobox, as well as into the article itself. Jingiby (talk) 14:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

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I have just modified one external link on Gotse Delchev. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot*this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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  1. ^ Letter from Gotse Delchev to Nikola Maleshevski (1899)
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