Talk:Grade II* listed war memorials in England

Armada Memorial

Does the Armada Memorial (currently in Draft:Armada Memorial) fit into the scope of this page? It's a grade II* listed "memorial", but I haven't found a good description on its purpose. It could be more a celebration of battle than remembering the fallen. Any thoughts from other editors? Jolly Ω Janner 08:56, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Interesting question., Jolly. Pinging User:HJ Mitchell as he might know. Incidentally, this article was on a to-do list in my userspace since April 2007. I am glad someone finally got to it! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 17:06, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Profuse apologies, Jolly; I completely missed this at the time. Thanks for the ping Carcharoth. I deliberately kept the scope the same as Historic England's—you can search the National Heritage List for England by category (in this case "war memorial (freestanding)") and narrow it down by grade (in this case II*), which is how I produced this list. Evidently Historic England categorise the Armada Memorial as something other than "war memorial (freestanding)". You could email them if you felt that was incorrect—I've sent in a few minor corrections that have been made quickly so you'd probably get a response; whether they would agree or not I don't know. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:11, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

St Michael Cornhill War Memorial

@HJ Mitchell: I won't have time to add this to the list over the next week but St Michael Cornhill War Memorial was promoted to Grade II* on 1 December. Ham II (talk) 08:03, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

New listings

Is there a comprehensive official list somewhere? Several more by Sir Herbert Baker were listed or upgraded recently, six to Grade II* (County of Kent War Memorial Cross in Canterbury, Hampshire and Isle of Wight War Memorial in Winchester, Hatfield War Memorial, Blackmoor War Memorial Cloister, Overbury War Memorial Lych gate, Harrow School War Memorial Building) and the Winchester College War Cloister to Grade I.[1] Theramin (talk) 00:34, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

HJ Mitchell should be able to answer that (he has been working on Lutyens memorials, but the Historic England upgrading of a group of memorials is similar for Baker and Lutyens, and maybe others as well). I have read a bit about the Harrow School War Memorial Building. I can help out there if needed. Carcharoth (talk) 10:25, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I guess Category:Grade II* listed monuments and memorials and Category:Grade I listed monuments and memorials should help, although we don't have articles for all of the listed war memorials, some of the existing articles don't not include the relevant category, and there are some monuments and memorials in the categories which are not war memorials so should not included in these lists.

I'm sure more new listing and upgrading of listings will take place over the next couple of years. Perhaps we should wait for things to settle down after 2018. Theramin (talk) 23:54, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I've started an article on the Winchester College War Cloister and added it to Grade I listed war memorials in England. Does Historic England publish a list? Are any others missing there? The Harrow School War Memorial Building sounds interesting... [2] Theramin (talk) 00:35, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

@Theramin and Carcharoth: I produced the list from the NHLE advanced search results. Enter "WAR MEMORIAL (FREESTANDING)" under "asset type" and select II* under "grade". I haven't been able to keep on top of updating this list. I know Historic England are listing and upgrading lots of war memorials as part of the WWI centenary. Perhaps a Wikidata dynamic list might be easier to maintain? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:33, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. OK, well, based on that approach, searching for Grade I listed "freestanding" war memorials, I get exactly 20. It looks like our Grade I list is missing a few: the Edith Cavell Memorial (Grade I since 2014), the "Eleanor Cross" at Sledmere (2016; a copy of the Eleanor Cross at Hardingstone, sited near the Wagoners Memorial), and the "Statue of Captain Albert Ball" (2017) at Nottingham Castle. But the list created by that search excludes the Winchester War Cloister, and I'd need some persuading that it should be excluded from our list. For freestanding Grade II* war memorials, there are now 116 results (!). Theramin (talk) 22:49, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

I think we need to stick to Historic England's list otherwise the inclusion criteria become arbitrary. At 116 entries, if the list keeps growing we might need to think about splitting it up. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:03, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

OK, well, I've already updated Grade I listed war memorials in England but I left Winchester out pending this discussion. But I'm tempted to add it as an example of one that was excluded. And indeed the Hall of Memory, Birmingham. Theramin (talk) 22:11, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

List

For what it is worth, I recently searched the list at the Historic England website. There are still 20 Grade I listed freestanding war memorials, but the Grade II* list has gone up again to 129 134 136. Here they are:

1. Merchant Seamens Memorial, Tower Hamlets (or Merchant Seamen's Memorial, i.e. the Tower Hill Memorial) Y
2. Royal Sussex Regiment Memorial, Eastbourne Y
3. Mells War Memorial Y
4. Radcliffe War Memorial, Bury Y
5. Memorial at Congress House, Great Russell Street (aka TUC War Memorial) NY
6. Bromley War Memorial Y
7. Hoylake and West Kirby War Memorial Y
8. Beaumont College War Memorial, Windsor Y
9. Stockton-on-Tees War Memorial Y
10. Stalybridge War Memorial Y
11. Bridgwater War Memorial Y
12. 79th Regiment Memorial, Clifton Y
13. North Eastern Railway Company War Memorial, York (i.e. North Eastern Railway War Memorial) Y
14. South African War Memorial, York Y
15. South African War Memorial, Clifton College, Bristol Y
16. Northumberland Fusiliers' War Memorial Gateway, Hexham Y
17. Cross at Church of All Saints, East Pennard Y
18. British Medical Association War Memorial, Tavistock Square, London (see British Medical Association or Tavistock Square) Y
19. Cambridge American Cemetery and Memorial Y
20. Saltburn War Memorial Y
21. Boer War Memorial Arch, Brompton Barracks Y
22. 24th East Surrey Division War Memorial, Battersea Park Y
23. South African War Memorial, Worcester Y
24. Holy Trinity Churchyard Memorial, Liverpool Y
25. Devon County War Memorial, Exeter Y
26. Folkestone War Memorial Y
27. Memorial To Heroes Of The Marine Engine Room, Liverpool (perhaps move Memorial to the Engine Room Heroes of the Titanic as it is not just about the Titanic) Y
28. Midland Railway War Memorial, Derby Y
29. Wallgate War Memorial, Wigan (see All Saints' Church, Wigan) Y
30. Crimean War Memorial, Brompton Barracks Y
31. Commonwealth Air Forces Memorial, Egham (see Air Forces Memorial) Y
32. Southport War Memorial Y
33. South African War Memorial, Newcastle upon Tyne Y
34. Manchester War Memorial (i.e. Manchester Cenotaph) Y
35. War Memorial at Church of All Souls, Leeds NY
36. Sedburgh School War Memorial Cloister Y
37. Earl Haig Memorial, Whitehall Y
38. Bournemouth War Memorial Y
39. War Memorial War Memorial Park, Coventry Y
40. Exeter City War Memorial Y
41. Belgian Monument To The British Nation, Victoria Embankment (i.e. Anglo-Belgian Memorial, London) Y
42. Cavalry Memorial, Hyde Park (aka Cavalry of the Empire Memorial) Y
43. Retford War Memorial Y
44. Lewes War Memorial Y
45. Machine Gun Corps Memorial Y
46. Memorial Cross at St George's Church, Deal Y
47. Huddersfield War Memorial Y
48. Holy Island War Memorial Y
49. Busbridge War Memorial Y
50. York City War Memorial Y
51. War Memorial, St Wulfram, Grantham (see St Wulfram's Church, Grantham) Y
52. British Thomson-Houston Company War Memorial, Rugby Y
53. Boer War Memorial, Cannon Hill Park, Birmingham (see Cannon Hill Park) Y
54. Euston Square War Memorial or Euston War Memorial (i.e.London and North Western Railway War Memorial) Y
55. Dover Patrol Monument, St Margaret's Bay, Dover Y
56. La Délivrance, Finchley Y
57. City of Portsmouth War Memorial or Portsmouth War Memorial Y
58. Rawtenstall Cenotaph Y
59. Hythe War Memorial Y
60. Civil Service Rifles War Memorial, Somerset House Y
61. Royal Artillery Boer War Memorial, St James's Park Y
62. War Memorial, Roman Catholic Church of The Holy Trinity, Newcastle-under-Lyme NY
63. Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment Cenotaph, Maidstone Y
64. Briantspuddle War MemorialY
65. Stanway War Memorial Y
66. Faversham Munitions Explosion Memorials Y
67. Oldham War Memorial Y
68. Norwich War Memorial Y
69. National Submariners' War Memorial, Victoria Embankment (i.e. National Submarine War Memorial) Y
70. Worksop War Memorial Y
71. Royal Gloucestershire Hussars Yeomanry War Memorial, Gloucester Y
72. Colchester War Memorial Y
73. Newcastle War Memorial (see Old Eldon Square) Y
74. 29th Division War Memorial, Stretton-On-Dunsmore, Rugby Y
75. Lancashire Fusiliers War Memorial, Bury Y
76. West Derby War Memorial, Liverpool Y
77. Oswaldtwistle War Memorial Y
78. Blackpool War Memorial Y
79. Keighley War Memorial Y
80. Elveden War Memorial Y
81. Upper North Street School Memorial, Poplar Recreation Ground (i.e. Poplar Recreation Ground Memorial) Y
82. Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry War Memorial Y
83. Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regimental War Memorial Y
84. Westfield War Memorial Village, Lancaster Y
85. Blackmoor War Memorial Cloister Y
86. Lenton War Memorial Y
87. Birkenhead War Memorial Y
88. Ashton-under-Lyne War Memorial Y
89. Cumberland and Westmorland War Memorial Y
90. Royal Berkshire Regiment Cenotaph, Reading Y
91. Barnsley War Memorial Y
92. London Troops War Memorial Y
93. Burwash War Memorial Y
94. Lichfield War Memorial Y
95. Royal Naval Division War Memorial Y
96. Southend-on-Sea War Memorial Y
97. Macclesfield War Memorial Y
98. Darwen War Memorial Y
99. Kingston upon Thames War Memorial Y
100. Lytham St Anne's War Memorial Y
101. Accrington War Memorial Y
102. Sheffield War Memorial Y
103. Rifle Brigade War Memorial Y
104. Harrow School War Memorial Building Y
105. Bolton Cenotaph Y
106. Bisham War Memorial Y
107. Reigate and Redhill War Memorial Y
108. Burton upon Trent War Memorial Y
109. Trumpington War Memorial Y
110. People of Dover War Memorial (Biggin Street, Dover, not the ?unlisted Dover Marine War Memorial it seems) Y
111. Crompton War Memorial Y
112. Stourbridge War Memorial Y
113. Burnley War Memorial Y
114. Shropshire War Memorial Y
115. Watford Peace Memorial Y
116. Royal Fusiliers War Memorial Y
117. Sherwood Foresters Regimental Memorial, Crich Y
118. Croydon Cenotaph Y
119. Harting War Memorial Y
120. Ditchling War Memorial Y
121. St Michael Cornhill War Memorial Y
122. Twickenham War Memorial Y
123. Hampshire, Isle of Wight and Winchester War Memorial Y
124. County of Kent War Memorial Cross Y
125. Edgar Mobbs War Memorial, Northampton (see Edgar Mobbs) Y
126. Bury War Memorial Y
127. King's Royal Rifle Corps War Memorial, Winchester Y
128. Great Dunmow War Memorial Y
129. Harrogate War Memorial Y
130. Hatfield War Memorial Y
131. Royal Air Force Memorial Y
132. Bootle War Memorial Y
133. St Saviour's War Memorial, Southwark (i.e. Southwark War Memorial) Y
134. Matlock Bath War Memorial Y
135. Memorial to the Home of Aviation Y
136. Pearl Centre War Memorial Y

I've tidied up the names of a few from the "official" names on the list, e.g. Southport War Memorial Obelisk, and tried to identify which articles should have plausible redirects, e.g. Manchester War Memorial, and no doubt there are some that are redlinked here for which we already have articles under a different name. Food for thought - we have articles on all 20 of the Grade I listed memorials, but perhaps half of the next 130 (that is, perhaps 60 of the 150 most important war memorials in England are redlinked). The article on the Tower Hill Memorial is particularly bad, if you are looking for a project. Theramin (talk) 23:40, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for this, Theramin. Any chance you'd have time to update the article? I've just created a slew of redirects, so some of the red links are blue now. I think it's reasonable to say that all of these memorials are notable enough for their own article. As a general rule, the ones in central London will have articles, the main memorials in big cities probably will, and if it's Lutyens it has an article (I dread to think how many hours that took me but they all have an article now, several of them FAs). Other than that it's hit and miss whether someone's thought to write about it or not but they all deserve thorough treatment. I have a few books on war memorials that I've been working from and many of these are mentioned (in varying levels of detail) in those. Oh, and Tower Hill is Lutyens, so it's on my hitlist (the items left on there are, in the order I'll probably tackle them: Civil Service Rifles, Royal Naval Division, Tower Hill, Leicester, Southampton, Whitehall). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Update the article? I think there would be quite a lot of work required to update the list here with as much detail for the existing entries. But I have tried to identify the ones above that we have in the list already (with an asterisk) and the ones that need to be added. I've also tweaked a few items. If/when someone updates the list, we should probably go with the order (above) presented by a search at the Historic England website. Theramin (talk) 00:50, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Plucas58, for your work in updating the list. Sorry, bit more to do! Theramin (talk) 00:38, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Updated again. Now 136. Theramin (talk) 02:22, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Rawtenstall Cenotaph

This one is duplicated in this list, I think. I'll remove it shortly, unless anyone knows why it should have two entries. KJP1 (talk) 07:52, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

It would appear that the Rawtenstall memorial was added in error a couple of years ago, now gone.

I've checked my lists from the online search, and we seemed to be missing just two newer ones: the Memorial to the Home of Aviation and the rather nice George Frampton at the Pearl Centre that I've had my eye on for some time (moved to Peterborough from the former HQ near Holborn, now Rosewood London). I've also added the memorials outside two churches that showed up - at All Souls' Church, Blackman Lane, Leeds and Holy Trinity Church, Newcastle-under-Lyme - and also Jacob Epstein's striking TUC war memorial at Congress House, another one that has been on my radar for a while. No article on the Bernard Meadows sculpture outside either. (Plucas58: you left these off before, and they have red crosses in the table above, so let me know if you still think they should be left out, or indeed if I have screed something else up.)

I've also taken the opportunity to remove the red links (either they should all be red-linked, or none) and add some disambiguation (for example, the four called "South African War Memorial") and links. Theramin (talk) 02:03, 10 January 2020 (UTC)