Talk:Grand Slam (professional wrestling)/Archive 2

United States Championship

If I see the reinsertion of the mention of the United States Championship into this article again, by anyone, they are going to be warned for inserting original research into Wikipedia unless of course you have a reliable source thats verifiable. semper fi — Moe 04:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

What I don't understand, is how you can count the World heavyweight championship and WWE tag team championships, but not the US championship? IMO, either count all three, or count none. Is it just because, unlike the other two, that has undisputed lineage to the WCW version?

--Jdrouskirsh 00:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand. I thought the United States belt was the same as the Inter Continental. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.249.148.141 (talk • contribs)

See our No original research policy. There are no sources indicating this except Wikipedia, and we cannot add mere assumptions. semper fi — Moe 02:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a lot of people have gone back and forth on this on the history page. What would you need to add the U.S. belt so that there would be no doubts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.76.100.26 (talk • contribs)

A reliable source. semper fi — Moe 19:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

What about this: {www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/columns/misc/bedington01.html} Would this count? I saw that this website was referenced already.

If you can't get to the column that way, click on to www.obsessedwithwrestling.com, click columns, and the column is entitled "Missed Opprtunities" from June 23, 2006.

I'm going to e-mail the author of this site so I can reference where he got his information from because the article contradicts itself. It says that the US title is included, but doesn't add JBL as a champion, stating that there have been only six, but with JBL that would be seven actually. semper fi — Moe 02:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason why JBL isn't included is because the article was written two months before JBL won his first (and only) US title--71.131.186.80 23:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

---

I have got a response from the author of the column. I'm not going to post the full thing, and will forward the message to anyone who wants the full message. The reason why this cannot be a reliable source and the fact it violates No original research is because of this explaination he gave me when I asked where he sources were:

"As to my sources, I decided to include the WWE United States Championship in my original research based upon the PWI’s 2003 wrestling almanac along with additional input from the “Wrestling Information Archive” website."

He stated specifically that it was original research. Wikipedia is specific about this, there is to be no original research.

He also said that he was "disappointed" with his past article. He also stated he was working on a more in-depth article about Triple Crown/Grand Slam champions, which he will finish sometime in the near future. He stated this also:

"If you or site would be interested in a copy of this article with appropriate reference material included, please feel free to email me and I will happily send along either the entire article or any specific portion you desire once completed."

So until he completes this new column with sources, I'm afraid were not adding anything. Not everybody on Wikipedia knows about professional wrestling, and we can't risk adding unverified information with no sources at all. semper fi — Moe 21:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

That's cool. I took it for granted that because I'm a wrestling fan and know all of the history and what not, that everybody would just automatically know this for fact.

Whatever you guys need to do to keep things legal, please do what you have to do. I just found it odd that the U.S. belt wasn't on your list because the other new titles were, and I always figured the U.S. belt was the same as the I-C since they are both the #2 titles on their brands.

You a big wrestling fan Moe? because I see you and someone named vlh on the history page a lot and it it looks like you 2 were really going at it.

The other new titles were because it was expressed on WWE.com that certain superstars, Shawn Michaels for the World Heavyweight Championship, despite having the Grand Slam status before his reign as World Heavyweight Champion) and Kurt Angle (for the WWE Tag Team Championship) were Grand Slam Champions which meant that those two titles were included. I'm seriously waiting for that kind of statement from WWE on a superstar that won the US title. I always thought the same thing about the #2 title, but without a statement to go on, we have nothing to say it's real. And yes, I'm a rather big fan of professional wrestling. User:Vlh was just a persistant troll hell-bent on readding the United States Championship with or without sources, he has been indefblocked now. semper fi — Moe 00:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

In theory, vlh is right. But you gotta play by the rules, which I assume he didn't, so he pays the price I guess.

Survivor Series 2001

This is kind of a subtle point to the U.S. Title controversy.

When the Invasion Angle was winding down, WWF looked to unify all WWF and WCW titles that were viewed as equals to their opposite numbers.

So we had Hardyz (WWF) vs Dudleyz (WCW) in a unification tag team title/cage match, Test (I-C) vs Edge (U.S.) in a unification match, and they wanted to do X-Pac (Light Heavyweight) vs Tajiri (Cruiserweight) but X-Pac was injured/AWOL at the time.

Just something to throw out there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.252.172.197 (talk) 02:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

That is exactly my point. The United States Title is equivalent to the Intercontinental Title and should be apart of the Triple Crown and Grand Slam Championships.--Prince Patrick 16:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. There is no source stating that the US title is part of a triple crown, or grand slam. The whole basis of both of those articles is Shawn Michaels, and the fact that the WWF, then WWE, declared him the first ever Grand Slam Champion and in doing so confirmed he was a Triple Crown Champion at the same time, therefore wrestlers who have won the same titles were declared thus. Kurt Angle was declared a Grand SLam champion making the SD Tag titles an acceptable alternate. There is no US title statement. End of story. Darrenhusted 23:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely not the end of the story. But, SS 2001 does have little, if any, importance on the debate. Anakinjmt 07:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Just A Thought

This is just a thought. I understand why you don't want the US title listed on this page until it is mentioned by the WWE that the belt is a Grand Slam worthy title. But Chris Benoit has had held the US title, World title, the IC title, and both WWE tag titles. Now this is a couple questions. Would Chris Benoit be considered a Tag - Team Grand Slam Champion (If there is a such) as he has won both WWE tag titles (WWE and World Tag Titles) the WCW tag titles, and the ECW tag titles. I know WWE does not acknowledge this but he has won those titles and now WWE owns the other companies (WCW and ECW). Anyway, my other question is what if someone were to win the main singles titles, a set of tag titles and the cruiserweight title? like Rey Mysterio? I understand that the WWE has never mentioned this but I think it is a valid question that can only be answered with opinions.

Cruiserweight is like the Women's Championship: it's a special championship. RAW and Smackdown (and I'd suspect ECW sometime down the road will also do this) have this format:

World Championship

Secondary Championship

Tag Team Championship

Special Championship (typically showcasing a special type of talent exclusive to that show)

So, for RAW it's Diva's and women's wrestling and the Women's Championship, and Smackdown it's cruiserweights and the Cruiserweight Championship. This isn't saying you DON'T see cruiserweights on RAW or Diva's on Smackdown (Super Crazy on RAW and Layla on Smackdown are prime examples) but typically, you see women's matches on RAW and cruiserweight matches on Smackdown. Now, the thing is though, the special championships are just that: special. Not anyone can hold the special championship. Only women can hold the Women's Championship (exception to one guy that dressed up as a girl to win it) and only cruiserweights can hold the Cruiserweight championship (Matt Hardy, in kayfabe at least, did make the weight requirement when he won the Cruiserweight Championship). Besides, unlike the US Title, where's it's been hinted that it's part of the Grand Slam, considering a lot of people (including me) belive it's equal status wise to the IC title which is part of Grand Slam, there has been NO hinting at all of Cruiserweight championship counting towards Triple Crown/Grand Slam. So, as far as Cruiserweight Championship goes, it's fairly safe to assume it's NOT included in either one.

As for a Tag Team Grand Slam, technically, you'd have to have won ALL world tag team titles, and the only people that I know of to have close to doing that is the Dudleyz, AKA Team 3D, with them now in TNA trying to get the NWA Tag Team Titles. Chris Benoit, while he's also one away, currently works for WWE, so it doesn't appear like he will win the NWA Tag Team championships in the near future. Anakinjmt 15:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

---I think a Tag Team Title Grand Slam should be winning the WWE/World (either one), WCW, ECW, and NWA Tag Team titles. Team 3D has the best chance as they have a shot at LAX coming up.

In fact, 3D would have a "Full House" if they win the NWA straps, as they have held both sets of WWE tag titles.

If you really want to get cheeky, then the World Titles of said companies could make a Grand Slam. Ric Flair has the best chance at it, as he has the WWE, WCW, and NWA Titles in the bank and merely needs the ECW belt, which is possible (though not probable).---

It's not only improbable, it's impossible right now, as the ECW Tag Titles don't exist anymore at this point. So, Flair isn't the closest, again, it's Team 3D. And, it's not about what you "think", it's about what's for real, and it's for real that currently there is no Tag Team Grand Slam in any way, shape, or form. Anakinjmt 20:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

---In Flair's case, I was talking about World singles Titles, having WWE, NWA, and WCW locked up and having in the realm of possibility an ECW shot.

I also never suggested making any entries about different Grand Slams, but in the modern era of wrestling (which began in 1991 with AWA folding, WCW seperating from NWA, and ECW being formed shortly there after) the WWE, WCW, ECW, and NWA World Titles have been the big 4 belts in which to shoot for.

Regardless of whether it's officially called a Grand Slam (or a Full House when both versions of WWE's titles are considered) it's still a hell of a feat when one man or one team can rack up the Big 4 Belts in either tags or singles (Big 5 with the Brand Extension belts).---

I don't know if it means anything but...

---I don't if it matters or not, but on wwe.com, click on the title history page, and you will see that they revamped it.

They list the titles in "totem pole" formation on a chart like this:

WWE Championship ----> World Championship

I-C Title ----> U.S. Title

World Tag ----> WWE Tag

Women's Title ----> Cruiserweight Title

The first column being Raw Titles and the second being Smackdown Titles.

You would have to think they did it this way on purpose to show that title X on Raw = title Y on Smackdown.

Again, whether this means anything or not, I don't know, but considering this is right from wwe.com, I thought it was worth mentioning.--- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.250.48.37 (talk) 06:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

[1]

The page needs fixing

---Someone tried to add the ECW Title to the Chart and screwed the whole page up.

Can someone who is a registered user please fix the page, because as it stands now the page is all out of whack.--- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.36.8.49 (talk) 16:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

I fixed it. Anakinjmt 20:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Chris Jericho

I suggest that his World Heavyweight "WCW" Title reign be taken out as it was not part of the championship that was introduced in 2002 as a brand new title. So I'm going to go ahead and take it out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 5TimeWCWChamp (talk • contribs) 04:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

If Test wins on Sunday

Do we have to make the ECW World Championship equal to the WWE and World Heavyweight Championship?

13:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)Swiggs

First of all, why would Test winning the ECW World Championship put it equal to the WWE and World Heavyweight Championship? Second, it's not up to us whether or not ECW WC is equal to WWE or WH Championship. It's up to WWE OR reliable source (such as PWI). Anakinjmt 19:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

ECW and WCW Titles

2 items of inquiry:

1. I believe that WWE has shown that they consider the ECW title to be on the same level as the WWE and World Championships when they had the "Champion of Champions" Match at Cyber Sunday, as well as the Royal Rumble winner getting his choice of competing for the WWE, World, or ECW Championships.

2. Did someone find something to say that WCW had a Grand Slam, because if not, it needs to be taken out so the OR Police doesn't get them.

Ohgltxg 02:19 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the whole idea of WCW Grand Slam is just to have something to compare WWE Grand Slam against. And, I would agree with you on the ECW title, but considering it hasn't been given World class status yet, we really can't say it's equal. Anakinjmt 22:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

According to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Number_of_World_Title_Reigns the ECW Championship has world title status since its reactivation. The Article says the information is based off of PWI. KonigBerserk 18:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

First, we can only be sure of ECW World Title reigns before ECW went out of business. ECW World Title reigns since the Brand Extension, we can't yet be sure of it having World Title Status. I don't read PWI, so I don't know for sure, but I haven't heard them state the the ECW World Title in WWE has World status yet. Also, considering there is still uncertainty over it being included in the Triple Crown Championship, we can't add it yet to the Grand Slam Championship. Anakinjmt 19:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Orton

Isnt orton a G.S.C.