This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hagop Kazazian Pasha article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

A fact from Hagop Kazazian Pasha appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 14 January 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the first three Ministers of the Privy Treasury of the Ottoman Empire were Armenian, the first being Hagop Kazazian Pasha?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/January.

Wikipedia

Biography: Military / Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the military biography work group.
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Low-importance).

Turkey Mid‑importance

	Turkey portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Comments[edit]

Removal of uncited sentence[edit]

I have removed the following sentence:

Due to the state-sponsored destruction of the Armenian community in the Turkish state which commenced in 1894-95 and reached its apex in 1915, the remnants of Kazazian's extended family were scattered penniless to the far ends of the earth.^{[citation needed]}

Hagop Kazazian lived alone with his elderly mother and had no wife or children. He lived between 1833-1891. I can find no facts supporting the sentence above. Please note that this is not a dispute about the events of 1915, just a dispute as to whether or not Kazazian's family was affected in 1915. --Free smyrnan 13:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good article, and I wouldn't worry about this exclusion. If there is a specific account of what happened to his family after he died, it would be worth discussing whether it should be included, but it is of questionable importance since it is not him and it is post-mordem... --RaffiKojian 02:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True, it is a good article. Good job smyrnan! It is nice to see articles like this from time to time :) Baristarim 03:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! --Free smyrnan 06:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bezciyan[edit]

Does anyone here know if Hagop Kazazian had any brothers or sisters or who his cousins were. Where was his family from before they setled in Constantinople/Istanbul? Was he in any way related to Artin Amira Kazaz, formerly known as Bezciyan? I have often wondered if it was a family connection that brought about my family's prominence and their close associations with the Sublime Porte.

Artin Bezciyan shows up plenty on a google search -- biographies are also there (Turkish). "Kazaz" - meaning silk trader was a "lakab" - an almost formal nickname. Similarity of last name may not signify kinship, Ottoman Armenians seemed to have changed last names sometimes to correspond with their or their father's occupation. --Free smyrnan 06:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are so very knowledgeable. Do you know anything about Abdul Messih Kazazian who was working in the Sultan's palace?

Just a financial history and Ottoman history buff. If no secondary sources exist, if you know the Sultan and the particular post, you can check out archives. Also, if you know the district of Istanbul he lived in, you can check out the records of the district church. Abd-ul Mesih (slave of the Messiah in Arabic) is a weird name for an Armenian though. Are you sure that was his real name? Also, please sign your comments. --Free smyrnan 07:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that was his real name. It was during the reign of Sultan Abdul Hamid II just like Hagop Kazazian Pasha. That is why I thought that there may be a familial connection. Ab-dul Messih went to Saint Savior Armenian Catholic Church in Galata. How do I sign my comments?

Well, why don't you contact someone from the Armenian Catholic community? A quick google tells me the current bishop's name is Hovhannes Çolakyan. They may be able to help you track down your ancestor. Also, there is a page on the history of that church, and the church is operational. Just google a bit (most of it in Turkish though, don't know whether you speak it). To sign, put in 4 tilde's, next to one another -- this gives more detail: Help:Editing. --Free smyrnan 08:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Armenian Catholic?[edit]

I am asking for citation that Agop Paşa was Catholic. I have not seen any references that make this claim, especially the book by Çarkçıyan, Yervant Gomidas would be relevant, as the author is a Catholic priest and mentions it particularly if someone was Catholic. Also, in the biography provided by Çarkçıyan, it is mentioned that the order given by the Pope was delivered through the Patriarch Azaryan to Agop Paşa. So, if there are references that state Agop Paşa is Catholic, please provide them. --Free smyrnan 05:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hagop was my great grandmothers great uncle. I was told that my grandfathers family didnt believe in anything, and didnt attend church. That is, until the Turks burned down the college, and the church, and killed all the missionaries. She then went to a tent meeting, where the prophecy ( the Russian child ) was being read. We followed the instructions in that prophecy in 1910 and went to the west coast of the US. After that, we decided that God is real. Moomjian 2021

Project change[edit]

This article belongs in Biography, not Military history. I have changed the project templates. PKKloeppel (talk) 14:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hagop Kazazian Pasha/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

Press [show] to view →

The article looks greatly improved and in only two days. I rated it B pending a second opinion.

This looks borderline Start and B. Have you consulted the Steps for a B article? They suggest taking care of the missing citation and red links. And requesting Did you know... on the Main page.

I will post a request. I didn't think that Hagop Pasha would have Did you know... appeal, but I guess I am mistaken. Thx! --Free smyrnan 09:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Posted "Did you know" submission as well requests for articles for the red links. --Free smyrnan 13:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A link to a verifiable English Internet source other than Wikipedia derivatives like Answers.com would be helpful for those of us who don't know the language.

Best wishes. -Susanlesch 07:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to find some. --Free smyrnan 09:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did Google search, found and added one citation. --Free smyrnan 13:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For me it is a start article. It needs further expansion to be regerded as B-Class, despite the fact that it is well-referenced, and looks well-structured. Anyway, I wouldn't like to change unilaterally the rating. Let it be B, and let's hope to further improvement and to a successful GAC review. A ^{[citation needed]} I saw should be fixed.--Yannismarou 08:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I put in the ^{[citation needed]} since I did not wish to immediately remove the paragraph and perhaps start an edit war about the Armenian genocide. Kazazian pasha was, by all accounts I could find, a successful Ottoman Pasha who enjoyed high favors by the palace, who lived and died before 1915 and left no descendants who could be affected by 1915. I intend to let it stand for now, and if no one comes forward with more facts, I intend to remove the paragraph since it seems not factual. --Free smyrnan 09:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moved that sentence to the talk page for further deliberation, as it seems not relevant to the article. --Free smyrnan 13:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 08:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 16:57, 29 April 2016 (UTC)