Talk:Halifax (former city)/Archive 1

New Merger Discussion

The merger discussion is happening over on the HRM page Talk:Halifax_Regional_Municipality,_Nova_Scotia#Merger 9. coming up soon how did nova scotia get is name

Halifax vs. HRM name issue

OK, I'm a bit confused here - maybe it's because I've lived in Halifax, Dartmouth & Bedford over a 5-year period... lol The former city of Halifax, Nova Scotia no longer exists, just as the former city of Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, the former town of Bedford, Nova Scotia, and the former county of Halifax County, Nova Scotia do not exist (as legally-incorporated Nova Scotian municipalities).

The 1995 act to create HRM means that this corporate body is the name of the community - legally. Of course, Haligonians and Dartmouthians (?) always refer to their former community names, and even some community organizations such as the "Greater Halifax Parternship" refer to the whole thing as just "Halifax" when this is, in fact, not true. As such it is erroneous to have the entry for Halifax Regional Municipality or HRM point to the entry for Halifax, Nova Scotia, despite the disclaimer at the top.

If anything, there should be a separate entry for the regional municipality containing all the information on economy, population statistics, etc. which pertain to post-1995. The Halifax, Nova Scotia entry should continue as a separate entry but only containing the history of Halifax up until 1995. Likewise, the Dartmouth, Nova Scotia entry should contain information of similar scope pertaining to pre-1995 merger. Ditto for Bedford & Halifax Co. etc.

A model for this already exists with the Cape Breton Regional Municipality entry where separate entries exist for Sydney, Nova Scotia, Glace Bay, Nova Scotia, New Waterford, Nova Scotia, Louisbourg, Nova Scotia, etc. Notice that Sydney is erroneously described as a city. This is incorrect since there is only 1 common council for the CBRM, just as there is only 1 common council for HRM. Halifax, Dartmouth & Sydney are no longer cities - they are components of their regional municipalities. Same for the former town of Liverpool, Nova Scotia which is amalgamated with Queens County, Nova Scotia into a Municipality of Queens, Nova Scotia.

Nova Scotia's experiences with amalgamation are a bit different than some of the regional municipalities set up in Ontario. The Peel Regional Municipality, Ontario oversees some planning & development, policing, etc. in Peel County, Ontario but the cities of Mississauga, Ontario and Brampton, Ontario are separate incorporated municipalities in Ontario. Same with Halton Regional Municipality, Ontario with respect to the city of Burlington, Ontario and the towns of Oakville, Ontario and Milton, Ontario. Cheers, Plasma east 20:38, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would argue that Halifax has ceased to be a "city" (at least in the narrow North American sense of a municipality with a certain status) but this doesn't mean that Halifax has ceased to exist as an entity. The word "Halifax" was and is used (quite correctly) by Haligonians and others to refer not only to the former municipal entity, but also to a physical area of the Earth's surface together with the buildings, people and institutions which occupy it. The law of Canada is not (and, I guess, does not claim to be) definitive in matters of fact, and something can't be said not to exist merely because it has no legal standing.

To create a special article for the HRM would be perfectly sensible. However, it would still be perfectly valid for post-1995 events which occur in the area popularly known as Halifax, Nova Scotia to be documented in the article of that name. Best wishes, Cambyses 23:50, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would agree with all the points you've made. Halifax as a "place" (and in my mind at least as a "city") continues to exist, as do Dartmouth and Bedford, etc.

I guess the problem being that since amalgamation, the only statistics I've read on population, crime, economic activity, etc. refer to HRM as a whole. Now if the term "Halifax" or "Halifax Regional Municipality" refers to everything within Halifax County, the stats would stand. But confusion arises when people think that "Halifax" is separate from "Dartmouth" and other components of HRM, yet statistics such as population 359,000 etc. are appled to "Halifax," or the west side of the harbour.

An example of this type of problem was noted in the media for a few years following amalgamation when Halifax's (and Dartmouth)'s violent crime rates appeared to drop by a significant amount (~20% IIRC), but it was only due to the "dillution" of a larger suburban (and very rural) population being included from the rest of Halifax County.

IIRC in the early 1990's (pre-amalgamation), the City of Halifax had a population of around 115,000-120,000, with the City of Dartmouth being around 70,000. That may be off a bit, but there has been quite a bit of growth in Clayton Park West, as well as in outlying areas of Halifax County, such as along the 103 and 102 highway corridors in recent years...

Short of going into the census and extracting all census areas which comprise the former municipal units, is there any easy way to get such statistics? Cheers, Plasma east 08:44, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As a geographically challenged American, I think it would be a disservice to move the Halifax page to Dartmouth. I've taken the Dartmouth ferry once, but think of it as Halifax. (That was back when I lived in NYC.) Most New Yorkers think Canada is one of the outer suburbs. Properly categorizing Halifax under Dartmouth would only add to the confusion. --Connel MacKenzie 08:53, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

Connel, you aren't alone in your feelings. The HRM amalgamation continues to produce much confusion among local residents, Nova Scotians, and in the rest of Canada as well (as seen in this entry and this issue specifically). So how to refer to the former constituent communities? Statistics Canada refers to them all as "City [Dissolved]" or "Town [Dissolved]" but does refer to the regional municipality as "Halifax (Regional Municipality)". The problem lies mostly with the strong regional identities that residents of the former communities still maintain - hardly unusual given that their histories stretch back hundreds of years and these communities do in fact have their own quite-unique identities which have developed over this period. The 1995 amalgamation was, and still is, controversial with residents of all 4 major constituencies (Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford, and the county) having voiced strong opposition (for various reasons). While many of the usual amalgamation issues of municipal services, property tax levels, etc. have been sorted out, the name issue is a recurring problem.

Many people don't realize but the name "Halifax Regional Municipality" wasn't derived from the former City of Halifax, but rather from Halifax County (which was created in 1759, taking its name from the community of Halifax - created in 1749). The merger in Cape Breton, while also controversial for removing the local municipal governments, doesn't seem to have the same confusion about the name since everything within Cape Breton County became the Cape Breton Regional Municipality (except the reserves). There was no sparring between Sydney and Glace Bay over a name such as "Sydney Regional Municipality" or "Glace Bay Regional Municipality"...

The case in Halifax is interesting also since the first regional council in 1995 was very adamant from the outset that this was a merger of equals and that no single community would usurp the others. This is where the problem lies - do we refer to the HRM under the Halifax entry, or do we refer to the former city and its history (and possibly present/future issues within its former boundaries) but leave all HRM related issues to that respective entry, etc.? It's a huge can of worms - one that even many Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford and county residents don't appreciate (or care about), but which continues to drive debate in the respective communities. The Halifax entry can be potentially misleading to many people since the only heavily populated area is around the Harbour/Bedford Basin. Even today, the former unincorporated county areas of the county have almost as many residents as the former incorporated cities/town. Many residents 100 km to the east, along the eastern shore, or up in the Musquodoboit valley, or out in the Prospect area of the south shore, etc. are not in a "city" - yet they contribute to the HRM population statistic and this statistic is repeated in the "mantra" about "Halifax, Nova Scotia".

I personally find that misleading but wasn't really trying to stir the pot by putting in the 2001 population figure for the dissolved city - rather I had just created the separate HRM entry and decided that HRM should logically have the population figure for the regional municipality, and Halifax/Dartmouth/Bedford entries could have their dissolved pop. figures respectively to avoid confusion. Nova Scotia's regional municipality model is different from Ontario's and other provinces and this only seems to add to the confusion of readers from outside (and inside) the province.

And so the issue continues... Cheers,Plasma east 06:37, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Are you referring to the population statistic that I removed? I am happy to have it included, just as long as it is explicit what the statistic refers to, as you have admirably explained here! Thanks, Peregrine981 10:06, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

Nobody ever says they are from Halifax Regional Municipality when they go on a trip. It would be like someone from Bridgewater saying "I'm from the Lunenberg Municipal District". Just because there is a politial entity called HRM does not mean that the seperate communities in it should not have their own pages. I grew up as a navy brat, and people in Toronto still talk today about Willowdale and Downsview, but these towns disappeared in the 1960s into North York, which in turn was gobbled up by GTA in the 1990s. Technically the name of New York on the island of Manhattan is "Greater New York" but nobody calls it that, anymore. People are never going to stop talking about and living in Bedford, or Dartmouth (where, for the record, I grew up, and still feel quite fondly about.) I think that the first sentence of the article should read "Halifax Regional Municipality, or Halifax as it is commonly known, is a Canadian city...." and then the next para covers the creation of it... ALSO - technically, was not Halifax County incorporated as a municiple, rural unit? It had a council, warden, budget. I will try and check on this. WayeMason 20:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I moved it. All of it. And create a big new Halifax city article. Long on history, short on context for the community. Please take HRM related stuff to Halifax and Halifax community history stuff here. As stated elsewhere on this page, this brings Halifax/Halifax County/HRM articles in line with Sydney/Cape Breton County/CBRM articles.... yay us. WayeMason 18:28, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

General Discussion

Crosby isn't from Halifax.....he's from Cole Harbour. --65.32.82.152 17:34, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

He was born in Halifax, but raised in Cole Harbour. Not unlike Buck 65 who was born in Halifax, but raised in Mount Uniake. - FrankCostanza 23 Jul 2005

cole harbour is a part of HRM, is it not? Sysys 05:56, August 28, 2005 (UTC) Cole Harbour is not in Halifax--66.110.6.119 20:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Blindness/blindness research hub

Isn't Halifax the blindness and blindness research capital of the world, as a result of 1917? --Connel MacKenzie 08:52, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

That's mentioned in the Halifax explosion article, but I'm not sure what the current state of affairs is. - rernst 21:01, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

NPOV issue

I think there may be a problem in the transportation section. The part about:

Car drivers in Halifax are well known for their meek and courteous attitudes. As a result, the city is quite pedestrian friendly, many drivers yielding to pedestrians crossing anywhere, even illegally. This is popularly called a "Nova Scotian traffic jam". The large number of crosswalks also helps to make the city friendly to foot traffic.

Are they really? What are the stats to back this up? And that whole Nova Scotian traffic jam thing; I grew up outside Halifax and have never heard of this before. I think a traffic jam in any part of the world could be refered to as a London Traffic Jam or a Rio Traffic Jam.

I don't know what kind of stats would exist to support this statement. How would they be collected? However, I think that if you ask almost anyone who has spent time in Halifax, it is almost undeniable that the traffic is abnormally deferential to pedestrian traffic. It is certainly one of the traits that sticks in my mind about the city.

As to the Nova Scotia traffic jam, I had never heard this term used, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. It doesn't refer to a normal traffic jam, rather to one caused by the deferential drivers, so it is very much different from a London or Rio jam. Peregrine981 10:36, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

I agree, as someone who has recently moved to Halifax, the courteousness of drivers is extremely remarkable. Are there statistics for politeness? probably not, but I really don't think this is a NPOV issue, it's a well known fact and is definitely not a myth. The Singing Badger 22:14, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I never heard of such a thing when I lived there. Coming from a smaller centre, I found HRM to be typical of any larger city - people are in a hurry and won't stop for anything. If you want stats on the numerous (and I mean numerous) accidents involving cars hitting pedestrians (both jaywalkers, and in cross-walks), then I could easily send you dozens of results from a search I did on the Chronicle-Herald's archives from the last 5 years. The HRM had to install a fence on Robie Street across from Queen Elizabeth High School to prevent jaywalking at noon hours after several students were hit in traffic, resulting in serious injuries. There are several streets with crosswalks and lights, etc. where pedestrians have been injured and/or killed ie. Robie (all parts), Connaught, Windmill, Dunbrack, Bedford Highway, Bayers Road,... need I go on? Plus, with all the speeding that exists, the HR Police have created their own traffic division and are using mobile radar signs to force drivers to slow down. There is also, due to lack of planning and/or driver education, a distinct lack of courtesy toward bicyclists in HRM - a cyclist was killed 3 years ago at the west end of the MacDonald Bridge when he was cut off by a garbage truck. All in all, HRM has the same big city issues as other places of similar size (and larger) across North America. Its highways and business parks have street racing late at night, the downtown bar district produces a large number of DUI offences every night (I know this because I roomed with a HR police officer), etc. etc. I say can that section because it's hokey and inaccurate. Cheers, Plasma east 04:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Certainly there are accidents in Halifax, and there are bad/aggressive drivers. However, I find it quite untrue to say that the general driving culture in Halifax is as aggressive as other cities of similar size or larger. Toronto and Montreal are far worse, even Ottawa and Victoria, more comparably sized, are far less courteous than Halifax. Within Halifax, there are certain large streets that are busier and more dangerous due to the speed of the driving. Robie Street certainly springs to mind, obviously any of the highways... Business parks, and other vehicle dominated areas are also quite different. However, any smaller street, or the average street in the downtown core cars will almost always yield to jaywalkers, or people coming near the side of the street. So far 2 of us on here agree, and I would wager that if we did a poll most people would agree. In general Halifax drivers are far more corteous than in most other large cities in Canada (or the world). Drinking and driving is a seperate issue. The general attitude towards cyclists is not as corteous as toward pedestrians, I quite agree. Perhaps we can reword the passage to your liking... I think it is an important point about the culture of the city. Peregrine981 09:48, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

I'm all for statistical proof here, but simply listing traffic problems doesn't achieve that. The point is not 'are there bad drivers in Halifax', but rather can it be statistically shown that Halifax is as dangerous for pedestrians as any other major Canadian city? I have no idea how to research such a question but that's what the issue is here. By the way, as I was walking home from work last Friday, TWO cars stopped to let me cross the road in places where there was no crosswalk. I have lived in cities in several countries and this would never happen in any of them. Not all Haligonians are hokey, sure, but hokiness is not dead yet! The Singing Badger 15:54, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well I doubt there is any way to statistically demonstrate this, unless we delve into police or DOT records for every comparable-sized city in Canada or the U.S. - something beyond the scope of what's necessary. I don't see similar information about jaywalker/pedestrian tolerance in the entries on Portland, Maine (its metro area is roughly the same size as Halifax, and much more compact), or Kitchener-Waterloo, where I have seen similar acts of "stopping to let pedestrians cross the road". But I'll say that from walking 8 km each way (my own choosing) from apartment to work in downtown Halifax every day for 5 years, or biking, etc. - the chances of cars stopping on the many congested thoroughfares for a pedestrian are quite slim. If you base this information on side streets, or even congested downtown streets like Barrington, Spring Garden or Quinpool where traffic can sometimes be at a crawl in rush hour, then sure, drivers let pedestrians cross in front of them - their cars aren't moving much anyways - but I've also seen similar on Yonge in T.O., Sherbrooke in Montreal, etc. I just think the reference to this is unnecessary. Cheers,Plasma east 20:59, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Some statistician needs to write a PhD thesis on this! I agree that there's no way to easily prove the truth, but I still think the comment on the page ought to stand, perhaps being flagged more clearly as a possible legend rather than demonstrable fact. The belief in the unusual couteousness of Halifax drivers is something I've encountered a lot among Haliogonians and visitors, so I think it deserves mentioning in the article even if it's possibly mythic. The Singing Badger 22:05, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I wonder if there is a Canadian drivers page? In Canada, don't pedestrians have absolute right-of-way? In the US, you're not supposed to hit pedestrians, but if they are jaywalking and you hit them, you probably will not be found at fault; the jaywalker may get a ticket while being loaded into an ambulance. I understood crosswalks in Canada to be more of a suggestion since the cars have to stop for you no matter where you cross. Since Halifax is one of Canada's farthest large cities from the US, that singular legal difference should be more pronounced than elsewhere, I'd think. That is, if that truly is what the Canadian laws say (I do not know.) --Connel MacKenzie 05:57, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

My understanding of Nova Scotian traffic law is that all intersections are assumed crosswalks, and crosswalks are put wherever there is enough pedestrian traffic to justify it. Other than that, crosswalks are not a suggestion--you're supposed to cross there, and you run legal risks for doing otherwise. However, in Halifax there is a fair amount of leniency to the idea of crossing elsewhere, i.e.- in the middle of Spring Garden Rd. -

Haunti 15:16, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I heard of a lady that was hit a few years back, was actually the one fined for Jaywalking, in Halifax., as for pedestrians having absoulte right of way in Canada, that is not true, because that falls under highways, and traffic acts, which are provincial jurisdiction, and very from province to province. I know when I was in Alberta, if you were hit Jaywalking it was your fault. As for us being nice drivers, have you not driven anywhere recently, we are nice drivers, but we are very fast drivers, it seems the flow of traffic in the slow lane on the 102 is always about 110-120, and this is in the 100 zone. - Unamed.

The issue I think is not statistical. It feels to me like the author was trying to convey the generally accepted conventional wisdom that we are friendly people. Tourists think so. Motorists from out of province think so. People who come here on business think so. Now the flip side of that is that people from rural Nova Scotia DO NOT THINK SO! :) It is a feeling, that most people from big urban locations seem to have for Halifax. The driving is a part of it. Sadly, I think the days of being able to step out into traffic on Quinpool road at rush hour and have the traffic part like the Red Sea are long gone, and just in the last 7-8 years.... Anyway, my point is, while its not statistical, its contextual, if you will. Its the kind of "irrelevant relevant" data they talk about on the style guide pages that makes and entry a good read, I think. I would leave it or modify it to make it clearly context rather than cold hard fact WayeMason 19:46, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Statistics clean-up

I was just reading over this article and found the statistics to be somewhat misleading (particularly the racial and religious make-ups). The current content is extremely basic -- I was hoping some brave soul might take it upon themselves to fix that (I would, but I'm notoriously bad at such things).

Statistics Canada has extremely detailed records for Halifax available: I think we can do better than "white: 93%, black: 7%". The religious statistics are even worse: there are four items, three of which veing various forms of Christianity and the fourth being a misleading "no religion". I dare say that there's a bit of a bias there. Statistics on religion are also plentiful.

There was an edit made to remove the smaller statistics and round the rest of them. Perhaps they are lacking, as mentioned above, but they are still relevant unless someone can show otherwise. - Haunti 23:17, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Proposal To Move content

Okay, I did it. Today I changed the article first paragraph to be about HRM. Here is my rational. I spent 2 days creating a proper CBRM page, modeled on the Halifax page. The Halifax, Nova Scotia page has information about dartmouth, bedford, etc on it. It has the HRM flag, crest, etc, etc on it. So today I edited it to say "Halifax Regional Municipality, commonly known as Halifax".

I am slowly working through the countys of Nova Scotia and upgrading maps and adding a side bar with statistics, so I am concerned about consistency. (Hi Plasma East!)

I think, in order to be fair and consistant, that there needs to be a Halifax, Former City, Nova Scotia, page, and there needs to be a redirect from the HRM page to the Halifax, Nova Scotia page. Now, I am willing to be way more aggressive if we decide to (or alternately, I may be bold and just do it). We could make the Halifax page the historic city/current community page, and move ALL the info off of the current Halifax, Nova Scotia page onto the HRM page.

The thing that is important to me is that the old city and town pages should not be purely historical articles. These communities still exist, they still have identity. Changing the service delivery model and governance does not wipe out the community. Most neighbourhoods with strong identities do not have their own governments!

But a Halifax only page would have to have the old flag and crest on it (not in the city sidebar, since it is no longer a city). Not HRMs. Right now the page is BAD wiki. It is not clear or factually correct. It is not encyclopedic. Its confusing. Lets fix it. Thoughts? - WayeMason

Good idea. The only quibble I have with your proposal as it stands is what we would call the "former city of Halifax" page. "Halifax, Former City, Nova Scotia" doesn't sound quite right. Maybe just "City of Halifax, Nova Scotia", which was its name before amalgamation, or "Former City of Halifax, Nova Scotia".- Haunti 14:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC) (PS - you forgot to sign your name again. I did it for you, but try to remember to put "- ~~~~" after your posts.)

Heh, thanks... I guess there are two options, the one I proposed, and the other one where HRM page gets the Halifax, Nova Scotia content. No new pages need be created. Halifax, NS gets new historical info. The only problem is that all the links to Halifax go to Halifax, NS, and most of them are refering to Halifax, the municipality that exists today... I am not sure which is better, I can see upsides/downsides to both... I am going to leave it for a week before i do anything, see if anyone else chimes in. SIGNED (I think I keep forgeting this is not a UBB site..) :) WayeMason 14:22, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Second-largest harbour dispute

I didn't think the issue would be that simple, and thank you The Singing Badger for providing evidence of a dispute. - Haunti (give'r) 00:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

No probs. If only someone would a get a tape measure and find out the answer to the mystery... The Singing Badger 01:18, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure they would if it wasn't for the smell. - Haunti (give'r) 01:18, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Content overview

The subsection 'The Dawn of the 20th Century, World War I and the Halifax Explosion' describes the Halifax Explosion *twice*, and can't seem to make up it's mind whether the Belgian ship was the Imo (last paragraph) or the Emo (3rd paragraph). Can someone with local knowledge please clear this up and clean up that section? Palfrey 12:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it was Imo Ouuplas 01:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Neighbourhoods

Where is "Fairmount"? Ouuplas 01:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn’t call Fairmount a neighbourhood, it's a private development in Armdale. (See [1] for location.) To list it as a Halifax neighbourhood is, in my humble opinion, advertising. If no one objects, I’ll remove it. OldCommentatorOldCommentator 20:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Founding and Early History

The introductory paragraph concerning Halifax’s founding was somewhat misleading and I took the liberty of clarifying it.

I’m confident that most historians would say the primary reason for Halifax was the pressure from New Englanders for a military base to challenge the 'hostile' French presence to the north. At the time, the English (including the colonists) didn’t make the distinction between Quebec and Acadian that we do today; nor were the Acadians “remnants.” When Cornwallis led his transports into the harbour, the famous Expulsion was still six years in the future.

I also think it's important to recognize that Halifax was established as both a town (he brought over 2000 settlers with him) and a naval station.--OldCommentator 15:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The name is just Halifax

Can we have this named "Halifax "or "Halifax Nova Scotia" juswt like the legal name --Vic 23:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)