Talk:Handel & Hendrix in London

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Sources for the Handel House Museum[edit]

I completely rewrote this article after visiting the Handel House Museum, where I bought the paperback companion (Riding, Burrows and Hicks) and also the shorter guide to the house, a leaflet published by the Handel House Trust, which lists the rooms with floor plans somewhat more completely than the companion. I have dug out my copy of the companion, but have not been able to find the leaflet, As far as I am aware, these are the only detailed sources for the current state of the house. Looking back at the history I took 4 days to write the content, increasing the article from 2,600 bytes to 19,600 bytes. GFHandel did 5 hours worth of editing. It is not clear if he had access to either of the publications of the Handel House Trust. I can certainly get the shorter guide again either when I'm back in London or through friends. I see no reason to dismiss the shorter guide as unreliable. Hard to get, yes, but not unreliable. the Handel House changes their website, so information available in August 2009 might n longer be available. I haven't checked the images of the interior of the house. Mathsci (talk) 01:55, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for responding. No one is denigrating your work, but things move on and subsequent editors have the right to challenge and change article text (which is what I've done). Regarding your revert today, I do feel it is the fair thing to do to provide an edit comment explaining your action (or preferably starting a discussion here – which you have now done in response to my revert-revert request – so thank you). It would be good if you could find the source so that you can enter more detail than "Floor Plan, Handel House Museum" (e.g. a date and specific text – which I would be happy to incorporate into the more modern citation scheme I worked hard to introduce). I do feel that there is much citation work to be done in the article – work that is more important than the section at issue today. It is worth noting that not much has occurred to improve the sourcing in the 3.5 years since you last made your many changes, so you should not be surprised if another editor wishes to improve the article with some larger changes (as I did).
Specifically, I don't believe that the bold font is appropriate mid-article, and there was a strong sense of advertising about the previous text (supported by a dead link) which I don't believe is appropriate for Wikipedia. Perhaps we need a rethink about the level of detail required for this article (e.g. perhaps it is up to the museum itself to be describing its rooms – rooms whose use can change)? I'm happy to have an independent editor evaluate this, and look forward to working with you (and other editors) in continuing to improve the article.
GFHandel ♬  02:33, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Things have not changed very much in 3 1/2 years, except for dead links; and if you check, almost all of the content is due to me. (In the same way Organ concertos, Op.4 (Handel), Concerti grossi, Op. 6 (Handel), Organ concertos, Op.7 (Handel) have not changed drastically, except for the format and spacing in the titles.) Without the companion, it's not quite clear how an editor can check anything at all, such as page numbers. There is no other source for the house to my knowledge. On the other hand, it is quite easy to add inline citations for the content from every section. That content is almost all drawn from the second chapter of the companion. The website of the Museum (or Handel House Trust) has a brief account of the recent history of the house which, from memory, is identical to what was in the short guide. As for the floor plan, on page 23 of the companion there is a reproduction of John Sambrook's 1721 design for the three floors of the house as it was in Handel's time. As you will read in the article, the current ground floor is not part of the museum, except for the ticket office, and is used for shops; so the 18th century plan has its limitations. As far as I can see, to improve the article it is essential to have access to the sources. (The quotes from the Handel inventory appear elsewhere.) Even for the three other wikipedia articles above, I had to buy the main source, Stanley Sadie's BBC guide to the concertos. Mathsci (talk) 03:21, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, and no worries. My primary aim was to improve the referencing and citations, but I did get interested in trying to improve some of the text. Would you like to rewrite my text based on whatever sources we can use, but keeping in mind:
  • Bold font shouldn't be used in the article text to emphasise the start of such points.
  • If a particular snapshot in time is being described (e.g. 2009), then the text should make that clear.
  • There shouldn't be any hint of WP being used as a promotional tool (e.g. advertising events at the museum).
  • Less detail may well be appropriate – especially considering that a link to the museum is available to the interested reader.
  • Can replacements for any links that have gone dead be found?
I'm more than happy to help format references and citations if you just throw them into the article text. I'm also happy to work on other aspects of the article if you have any suggestions (e.g. researching sources via Highbeam, etc.).
Best wishes. GFHandel ♬  05:21, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The text from 2009 is out of date and should be updated by whatever can be found on the website of the Handel House Museum. The dead links for Christopher Hogwood can probably be retrieved using the wayback machine on archive.org. That is routine maintenance. The detail in the article about the history is in the companion and mostly not on the site. Wikipedia is not a substitute for the site. The article has four aspects. (1) History and background at the time of Handel (2) history after Handel (3) recent restoration and (4) actual information on the museum, its use and naming of the rooms and general functioning. Most of (1), (2) and (3) are contained in the companion or (or the Daniel Steulcher biography available in multiple formats on archive.org) and (4) either in one of the modern short guides or on the site itself. Subheaders help the reader and can become wiki-headers. Obviously the article is not intended to be a substitute for the short guide, for which visitors have to pay . Mathsci (talk) 08:48, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Floor Plan, Handel House Museum[edit]

I have now found my copy that the "Handel House Trust" published as "Floor Plan, Handel House Museum". It an 4 page A4 folded cardboard document. The first title page contains the watercolour of the huose included in the article, a list of "Top 5 things at Handel House":

  1. The harpsichord
  2. Handel's handwriting in a letter to Charles Jennens
  3. The unusual and ornate frame around Handel's portrait
  4. "The harmonious Boar" satirical engraving
  5. The composition exercises

At the bottom of the page is the logo of the Museum.

On the second and third pages are schematic floor plans of the first and second floors (British naming conventions) of 25 Brook Street (page 2) and 23 Brook Street (page 3). The 2 houses are interconnected on the first floor. On page 2, the 2nd floor rooms are the Bedroom (front) and the London Room (back), with an audio visual room at the rear. The 1st floor rooms are the Rehearsal and performance room (front) and the Composition room (back), with a shop and exit behind the composition room at the rear. On the facing page 3, the 2nd floor rooms are an exhibition rooms (front) and an activity area (back); the 1st floor rooms are both exhibition rooms.

The back page of the floor plan contains the following text.

George Frideric Handel (1685-1759) lived at 25 Brook Street from 1723 until his death, and it was here that he composed some of his greatest works, including Zadok the Priest, Music for the Royal Fireworks and Messiah. This landmark address opened to the public as the handel House Museum in November 2001 and is the first museum dedicated to a composer in London.

Room information

  • London Room (2nd Floor) Handel used this room as his dressing room. Originally this was the back room in the second floor connected to a small closet room (the closet was replaced by a bow-window room now the audio visual room). The theme of this room ceates the context for Handel's career in London, and includes portaits of his patron George I and comtemporaries from London's cultural scene.
  • Bedroom (2nd Floor) This room was the main bedroom where handel would have slept and probably where he died. The theme relates to Handel's personality, parivate life and posthumous reputation. Furniture includes a magnificent full tester (canopied) bed as described in the inventory of the house taken within months of Handel's death.
  • Rehearsal & Performance Room (1st Floor) From the 170s handel rehearsed at Brook Street in this room. The displays includes portraits of singers he worked with, the painting A MusicParty by Philip Mercier and a reproduction of a Ruckers double-manual harpsichord. We encourage musicians to come and use this unique space to rehearse; you are welcome to come and enjoy the atmosphere.
  • Compoisition Room (1st Floor) This room is believed to be where Handel composed some of his most famous works, including Messiah. Originally a small closet was located to the rear of this room where the bow-window room is (now the Museum Shop). The collection includes the famous portrait of Handel after Thomas Hudson and a portrait of Charles Jennens (librettist of Messiah).

The bottom of the page contains information on "Events and activities" and "Groups and schools" followed by contact information.

My belief is that it would difficult to find a more reliable source for the layout and functioning of the museum. Mathsci (talk) 12:33, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Handel and Hendrix in London rebranding[edit]

http://www.handelhouse.org now redirects to https://handelhendrix.org/ which describes Handel and Hendrix in London It appears the the museum has been extended and rebranded. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:01, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Those two guys would no doubt have been very appreciative of one another and their music. :) Hendrix is known to have been aware of the Handel connection and of having acquired some records of Handel. 192.121.232.253 (talk) 14:28, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Handel & Hendrix in London[edit]

I can see the logic of this new title given 23 and 25 Brook Street. I was not aware of the new rebranding which does not particularly surprise me, given the history and the method of financing the building. I cannot see any particular pros or cons for either titles. Most of the article, however, seems to be about Handel's house on 25 Brook Street and his musical activities around London (operas, oratorios, singers, etc). On the other hand 23 Brook Street was where Hendrix lived for a period and has its own claim to fame. Mathsci (talk) 14:58, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article was previously titled "Handel House Museum". If that museum has renamed itself, Wikipedia should surely use that new name instead. --Lord Belbury (talk) 15:18, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
From 27 July 2009 onwards, I was statistically listed as the "top editor" on the article. There is a pie chart if you are interested. You have made 4 edits compared to my 94 edits. Mathsci (talk) 15:37, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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