Talk:Harajuku Girls/Archive 1

There was a Wikiproject Japan tag here b4 archiving--ZayZayEM 14:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Er, really? Is this "Japan-related"? Three Japanese girls and one Japanese-American girl (if we're to believe the article in its current state) dancing around a US singer and purporting to be from or to be otherwise related to a particular locality within Tokyo: this sounds only very tenuously "Japan-related" to me. -- Hoary 11:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Does the concept of "Harajuku girl" have any currency in Japan at all? This seems like a Western construct. adamrice 01:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a completely a western term, but it has validity because its so widely used (like many japanese terms that are used in the US without much care for what the Japanese would say.) Denaar 04:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If that's the case, the article should be edited to reflect that. I will get on it. adamrice 15:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No reason I believe though to delete the infobox which brings together comparable phenomena and which is a good reference. I restored the infobox and slightly adapted the phrasing of the article to reflect the non-Japanese nature of the expression. LHOON 15:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a userbox, and userboxes do not belong in articles. adamrice 16:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You are right on this one, but probably the Japanese subcultures box was initially designed with userbox code. It should be recoded in the proper infobox format on all affected pages. The presence of this box is useful and informative on this and on the other pages, but it should be properly coded indeed. I would propose to leave the boxes untouched until someone gathers the time to do so. LHOON 17:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

this article is not good

the page for harajuku already covers subculture and fashion. This page should be blanked and redirect to either stefani or that page.Lotusduck 21:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Not A User this needs for facts

disambig

The info here should be redistributed to the harajuku article and the stefani article, this page becoming a disambig page to those.Lotusduck 04:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps outside-Tokyo, anglophone fantasies about girls in Harajuku aren't limited to Stefani and her credulous fanbase. If they aren't, this article might be a useful dumping ground for such fantasies. Perhaps the article would benefit from a clear statement that "Harajuku girl" doesn't (as far as I know) correspond to any Japanese term or concept. -- Hoary 16:05, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Original research

The page as it was previously ("Harajuku girl") constituted original research.

• Girls who hang out at Harajuku are not known as "Harajuku girls" in Japanese or in Japan
• I dispute the claim that they are known by this term outside Japan at all
• If they are known as "Harajuku girls" outside Japan because of Gwen Stefani, we shouldn't be promoting a western Orientalist fantasy, or presenting it as reality
• The "Harajuku girls" are Sefani's "Harajuku Girls"; that's what the article must reflect.

Exploding Boy 22:57, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining your motivation, but in the future please do so when editing, and not after the page had been reverted to its original self. Enjoy wikipedia! LHOON 07:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I've seen references to harajuku girls/style in Japan: eg.　原宿の女の子、原宿スタイル、原宿コスプレー、 など . I've definitely seen the term used in Western media in North America, Europe and travel guides. While being popularised by Gwen Stefani, there was a clear prior sub-culture movement - any more than Snoop Dogg made gangstas foshizzle mo hizzle.--ZayZayEM 05:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

NOTE The writing "原宿の女の子、原宿スタイル、原宿コスプレー、 など" translates into English as "Harakjuku Girls, Harajuku Style, Harajuku Costume-Play, etc". Please bare in mind that the vast majority of users don't read or speak Japanese, so posting in Japanese on the English Wiki is of very little use. To most people you just posted a string of nonsense characters! ShizuokaSensei 08:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

原宿スタイル (harajuku sutairu, Harajuku style), the first one I bothered to check, gets 5810 ghits; not so impressive, especially in view of the fact that 渋谷スタイル (shibuya sutairu, Shibuya style; where Shibuya is the next station south on the Yamanote line from Harajuku) gets a slightly less unimpressive 10,500 ghits. The second that I checked, and the only one of your set whose meaning is anywhere close to "Harajuku girls", is 原宿の女の子 (harajuku no onnanoko, Harajuku girls) gets, wait for it, 1910 ghits. Talk of underwhelming!

But I'm more puzzled by this notion of "sub-culture". Harajuku is about shops selling frocks and stuff. I don't know what's subcultural about the rag trade. -- Hoary 09:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's more an example of a subculture that become commodified. It used to be more about people creating their own stuff and then showing it off by wearing it in the area. This still happens, although to a lesser extent, but now it seems to be more about brands (some more underground, others more mainstream) that set up shop on Takeshita dōri. Exploding Boy 16:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite

Calling for a complete rewrite (almost leaning towards deletion). This is packed full of poor layout, original research, and lack of attribution.

I'm also suggesting that this article be cut down to only about genuine Harajuku culture in Tokyo and the back up dancers moved to Harajuku Girls (dancers), The Harajuku Girls or something.--ZayZayEM 04:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the main objection. A week or so back, the article gave the impression that there was such a species of human as "Harajuku girl" and that Stefani employs four of them. Now, it clearly says that "Harajuku Girls" is the name Stefani gives to her dancers, who it describes, and it emphasizes that neither the name nor the concept is Japanese. (Rather similarly, Super Furry Animals is so titled, not Super Furry Animals (musicians); the photo and text make it clear that while they may be super animals they're not particularly furry.)

Do you want an article about girls in Harajuku? If so, why not boys in Harajuku, girls in Daikan'yama, etc?

Meanwhile, original research can and should be blasted with {{cn}} and the usual artillery. Go ahead.

If however you're saying that four girls who dance along to Stefani's songs aren't particularly noteworthy, I might agree.... -- Hoary 05:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I would not object to a page called Harajuku style with a very clear DABlink on this page to it. The term "Harajuku Girl" is used by Western Media to refer to a subculture movement in Tokyo, I have heard the term used by Japanese people, though I am not familiar as to what is the "official" term (onna, stairu, kei, gosulori or what...) being used over there (doesn't matter as this is English language wiki).

I would certainly expect a great deal of wikipedia English users to visit this page and expect information on that, not four human marionettes. Just because a band/dance group is named after a subculture, doesn't mean they get precedence on the article mainspace, I'd really expect the opposite--ZayZayEM 05:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

But there is no Harajuku style.

I wonder which "subculture movement" the western media can be referring to: the main business of Harajuku is, and has long been, retailing; and the retailing goes all the way from junk food shops through the kind of cheap fashion you can buy anywhere via some more or less original fashions to the kind of expensive fashion you can buy anywhere.

This page has "Girls" capitalized, a clear indication that it's about a name or even trade name. The article starts off by writing about these marionettes, continues writing about them, and concludes with a reminder that their name is merely a US-manufactured conceit.

The name "Harajuku" is I think public property, as long as you don't claim that your product is manufactured there. US singers are free to cash in on it, just as Englishmen were free to cash in on Spandau and Japanese popsters are free to cash in on Thailand.

But I could be wrong. If you think there is such a thing as "Harajuku style" and can source what you say about it, go ahead and create the article. When you've done that, there's no particular reason to link from it to this article, because US fantasies about Harajuku are of only trivial significance (if any significance at all) to Harajuku. You could certainly change any redirect by Harajuku girl etc to that article rather than to this one. -- Hoary 05:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be on anti-Western sentiment rant. It doesn't matter that the Anglophone media is using the term and location incorrectly, it's their term. If they wanted to call it Japanese Gothic it would be appropriate to use that term even though the style is localised (predominately), not very Japanese (in a traditional sense) and only Gothic by Japanese usage of the word... --ZayZayEM 01:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't realized I was ranting about anything. As for anti-Western, the only evidence I've seen for the western notion so far is Stefani's dancers. I'm willing to be persuaded that there's more. As far as I'm concerned, people in the US and elsewhere are fully entitled to their own fantasies about Japan or their own terms for the realities of Japan or their own terms for their own fantasies about Japan. (Just as Japanese people are free to enjoy fantasies about the US.) -- Hoary 03:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Clarification question: What are you referring to as a Western Fantasy? (Dismissing something perceived by the media as a mere fantasy is "rant tactics" in my books, sorry if we're miscommunicating here). I am referring to "Harajuku girl" as a western term for a japanese subculture (ロリゴス　and other forms of コスプレ common around Yoyogi Park/Harajuku area) - Western media has sort of romaticised it a bit as a form of avant garde fashion statement rather than being more equivalent to contemporary Emo scene in America/Aus (which is also being romanticised and commercialised *sigh*). --ZayZayEM 05:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd dismiss as a fantasy any notion that there is a generic "Harajuku girl", that girls who frequent (or aspire to frequenting) Harajuku are covered by some umbrella term in Japanese, or that there is (even during a short interval) a generic "Harajuku style". I seldom go to Harajuku; but when I do, only a minority of the girls I see are dressed in gosurori (rorigosu is a new term for me) or kosupure. I'm surprised to infer that such a dismissal is a rant. However, what I think is of little import, and of course my reports on what I see (or don't see) are merely "OR". Where are these reports in the western media? (I don't say they don't exist; I just haven't seen them.) -- Hoary 05:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, we already have an article about Harajuku that talks about style (which is what the area is mainly notable for, besides Meiji Jingu). Exploding Boy 16:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Article on Harajuku is small an pathetic. I still want a DABlink at least. The term is used by western media to refer to the silly gothic lolitas (and a growing group of other fashion freaks) that hang around yoyogi park. It is irrelevent if the term has any japanese cred or is a media construct.

If this article insists on remaining about a dance troupe I would like all references to Harajuku Gothic Lolita Style Girls or whatever, cleaned up and merged out to somewhere else (Harajuku or Harajuku style)--ZayZayEM 01:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

If the term or any similar term is used a lot by the western media, then perhaps it deserves an article. But if it does, I'd say that the article shouldn't suggest that the term has any currency in Japan. Or perhaps it could just be a redirect: the last time I heard, "Fujiyama" was still being used (though decreasingly) by the western media; Fujiyama simply directs to Mount Fuji, which the reader is (inconspicuously) told is fuji-san in Japanese. -- Hoary 03:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Article on Harajuku is small an pathetic

Suggestion: improve it.

The term is used by western media to refer to the silly gothic lolitas (and a growing group of other fashion freaks) that hang around yoyogi park.

I've seen no evidence of this at all. There have always been fashion freaks in Harajuku; this is nothing new, and they've never been known as "Harajuku girls."

If this article insists on remaining about a dance troupe I would like all references to Harajuku Gothic Lolita Style Girls or whatever, cleaned up and merged out to somewhere else

Is there a lot of discussion of these people? There has to be some mention of Harajuku as a fashion mecca if we're to explain why Stefani uses the term and those particular dancers. Exploding Boy 05:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Can we put new posts at the bottom, please. Exploding Boy 06:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Myspace

should they stay or go? my instinct is to toss them, but they may be legit. --Thespian 05:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• toss? Maddie ^{was here} 17:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Move discussion

Move to The Harajuku Girls. This is a definite article dance troupe, every source I've read on the topic through trying to get the to crux of this issue. At least can we try and use correct Namespace.--ZayZayEM 01:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

If they have a definite article in front of their names, by all means move the article accordingly. -- Hoary 03:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

a bit torn now, c.f Backstreet Boys (I'd call them "The")

Screwy layout

Perhaps the article should be renamed with "The", and conceivably there should also be an article about girls in Harajuku. But as it is, the article's titled "Harajuku Girls" (capital G) and is clearly about four girls who act as marionettes for a US pop singer. And I have no argument with that.

So why, immediately after the introduction and before saying any more about these four people (or their use, or their "controversy") is there a chunk about girls in Harajuku?

Previously, I'd seen something like this in a similar position, and deliberately moved it to the foot.

As it is, it's rather as if Black Rain (film) started off with a long description of how rain is (unless polluted) more or less transparent, or with a explanation of how actual Japanese bōsōzoku of the time didn't at all resemble the people striking poses with their (off-road!) motorbikes within this rather ghastly Hollywood flick. -- Hoary 07:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Two seperate articles are needed. Consensus needs to be worked out as to the titles of these pages. Currently I'm in favour of fashion-statement/subculture being merged to Harajuku main article, with a dablink on this page (dedicated to LAMB dancegroup)

The article may be rearranged, but certainly not split two separate ones. I prefer the layout of one of the former versions: first part about the Stefani girls, and then a section about the actual girls hanging out at Harajuku and the fashion hype around them. LHOON 14:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Articles should not describe two different topics. That's why we use disambiguation. As there seems to be a consensus that the term "Harajuku girl(s)" does not meet notability requirements, I propose the section "Actual girls in Harajuku" (which is horrendous and slightly innacurate - most commute there, and certainly are not representative of females that live/work in Harajuku on a daily basis) be moved to Harajuku article and a DABlink added to this page.--ZayZayEM 03:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph has some value in this article just to explain where Gwen Stefani got the mustard, and to allow a comparison with the "real" Harajuku girls. (or actual, or whatever you call them, I agree some of it may be rephrased) LHOON 04:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm the one who moved this. There needs to be some explanation of why the name was selected (why not "Ueno Girls" or "Tōbu Dōbutsu Kōen Girls", for example?), so a description of Harajuku is fine at the top of the page. I also hate the subheading "Actual girls in Harajuku" or whatever it was. Exploding Boy 15:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd be happy if all talk of actual girls in Harajuku (admittedly an ungainly phrase, but not an ambiguous one) were removed from this article about the four marionettes. If so, there should be a conspicuous link to Harajuku or wherever. But as long as this paragraph, or anything like it, remains in the article, it should not be at the top and it should not come with a photo. As long as it is conspicuous, with a photo, the article appears to be about actual girls in Harajuku.

Where did Stefani get the idea from? Who knows, maybe Harajuku or maybe some hyperbolic article about Harajuku in an inflight magazine or similar. To add a paragraph just in order to speculate on her reasoning seems odd to me. -- Hoary 04:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, can we please put new comments at the bottom?

Now then. We already have two separate articles. The Harajuku one and this one. Am I missing something? Exploding Boy 04:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think we're missing anything.

Except maybe my point about this article, which I'll rephrase. I thought that readers might like to have read something very brief about the relationship (if any) between (a) "The Harajuku Girls" and (b) girls in Harajuku. To that end, I thought a short paragraph would help, and (if memory serves me right) I hacked down an existing paragraph for this purpose.

Is something like this desirable within this article? (Frankly I don't much care.) If it isn't, let's delete it. If it is, let's hack it down further (by removing the photo, for a start) and put it near or at the end.

As for the positioning of comments: There's an established WP convention whereby, if I may simplify a little: (i) new responses can go immediately after the end of the comment to which they respond, with an additional indentation; and (ii) new notions go at the bottom. I don't see that anything has gone wrong on this page. And insisting that any response should go at the bottom would I think lead to confusion. -- Hoary 08:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Short paragraphs are not needed. Wikiality allows things to be included as links. A DABlink and possibly a short sentance or two is all that is needed. As I can tell the link between the dance group and actual goings on in Harajuku is teneous and superficial at best.--ZayZayEM 08:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)