Talk:Hate Me!

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Requested move 31 December 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. See little general agreement in this debate. Both types of rationales include citing of the same policy, WP:SMALLDETAILS, so something's off somewhere. As is usual with a no consensus outcome, there is no prejudice toward continuing to garner consensus for the highest and best title for this article. Happy Publishing! (closed by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  08:38, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hate Me! → Hate Me! (Children of Bodom song) – In conjunction with the concurrent RM Hate Me (Blue October song) → Hate Me (song) at Talk:Hate Me (Blue October song)#Requested move 21 December 2017, the Children of Bodom song is insufficiently disambiguated from the Blue October song solely through the addition of the silent symbol "!". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 08:31, 31 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. ToThAc (talk) 14:21, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support ! is not consistently used, and not enough to pass WP:CRITERIA In ictu oculi (talk) 09:31, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom and In ictu oculi. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:37, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:SMALLDETAILS. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:16, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If "Hate Me!" were to continue to redirect to the Children of Bodom song, there would be no point to the move, since the proposed title would be less concise, less natural and overly precise (WP:AT). On the other hand, if "Hate Me!" were to redirect to the dab page, it would be wrong because nothing else on the dab page is called "Hate Me!". Anyone searching for or linking to "Hate Me!" probably wants this article. Station1 (talk) 00:08, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that not everyone will search with the ! because it isn't consistent, but they will search using title and artist. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:01, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But those people will not be helped in any way by the proposed title because it includes the exclamation mark. There's already a redirect from Hate Me (Children of Bodom song) for those searching by title and artist without the mark. Station1 (talk) 17:33, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A user searching for a song entitled "Hate Me" is not likely to type "Hate Me (Some Group song)" or "Hate Me (song)" or "Hate Me!" [with exclamation]. The likeliest form to be typed would simply be "Hate Me" which would take the user to the Hate Me disambiguation page. There, the user will find, among the analogously named entries, "Hate Me (Group Name song)", which is the most useful and least confusing form for users.
Confusion is sown only when titles differ from each other solely through accents, diacritics, symbols or punctuation. None of the "Hate Me" entries needs a hatnote, such as the one currently at Hate Me (Blue October song), since no one who wants Hate Me (Blue October song) will type Hate Me (Attila song) or Hate Me (Children of Bodom song).
As a sidelight, it may be noted that a recent nomination at Talk:Everything Was Beautiful, and Nothing Hurt (Moby album)#Requested move 1 January 2018 which sought to differentiate, solely through the presence of the comma, the Moby album Everything Was Beautiful, and Nothing Hurt [with the comma] from the Breakfast with Amy album Everything Was Beautiful and Nothing Hurt [without the comma], was withdrawn by the nominator. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 00:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what that has to do with this particular proposal. The proposal is not to move to Hate Me (Children of Bodom song). If you're saying people are less likely to search with an ! or with (artist+song), surely they are even less likely to search using both. If you're saying the proposed title would be easier to scan on the dab page than the current entry, I have no objection to that, but a move is not required for that purpose. Station1 (talk) 05:37, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The example of the failed proposal for the Moby and Breakfast with Amy albums was intended to provide a comparison to this nomination. In the same manner that distinction between the existing Everything Was Beautiful, and Nothing Hurt (Moby album) and Everything Was Beautiful and Nothing Hurt (Breakfast with Amy album) is much clearer than the distinction between the unsuccessfully proposed Everything Was Beautiful, and Nothing Hurt and Everything Was Beautiful and Nothing Hurt, so would the distinction between the currently existing Hate Me (Blue October song) and the currently existing Hate Me! become much clearer if Hate Me! is moved to Hate Me! (Children of Bodom song), thus supplying an entry clearly analogous to Hate Me (Blue October song) as well to the two redirects, Hate Me (Escape the Fate song) and Hate Me (Attila song). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 06:51, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So that implies that you would point the Hate Me! redirect to the dab page. I agree that most people certainly search for plain "Hate Me". Those people, as you say, will end up on the dab page, as currently. For anyone who happens to search based on artist+song, they will see the redirect in the search dropdown, also as currently. The only change would be for those few who might search for or link to "Hate Me!". They would wind up on a dab page where nothing else uses the ! instead of the article they want. Frankly, I don't think it makes much difference one way or the other for a low traffic article like this, but I still favor following policy regarding natural disambiguation. Station1 (talk) 07:49, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That minority of users who know the exact title of the work for which they are searching, including the exact accents, diacritics, symbols or punctuation within such title, should have the option of accessing such title directly.
Thus, Everything Was Beautiful and Nothing Hurt should be the title of the disambiguation page, but Everything Was Beautiful, and Nothing Hurt would be more aptly redirected to Everything Was Beautiful, and Nothing Hurt (Moby album) where the currently-existing hatnote, "For the Breakfast with Amy album, see Everything Was Beautiful and Nothing Hurt (Breakfast with Amy album)" would resolve any potential confusion for the extremely small minority of users who might have inserted the comma for the wrong album.
The currently-existing hatnote at Everything Was Beautiful and Nothing Hurt (Breakfast with Amy album) which states, "For the Moby album, see Everything Was Beautiful, and Nothing Hurt (Moby album)" is thus unnecessary, since no one would type "Breakfast with Amy" if he or she wanted "Moby".
Likewise, in the case at hand, Hate Me! would more aptly redirect to Hate Me! (Children of Bodom song) for that minority who might type the very exact title with the "!". Likewise, again, a (currently non-existent) hatnote would be advisable there for that other extremely small minority who might have inserted the "!" for the wrong song. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:59, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. If Hate Me! were to redirect to Hate Me! (Children of Bodom song), that's less objectionable than redirecting to a dab page. Station1 (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Respectfully oppose per Station1. It is pointless to move this to the parenthetical disambiguation, as the exclamation point is already sufficient disambiguation. There are no other pages with this exact title. In case of any confusion by readers, I have just added a hatnote to this article, pointing to Hate Me (disambiguation), which should be sufficient.--Aervanath (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music)/Disambiguation, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 08:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC) [reply]

My key argument has always been that it is confusing/unhelpful to users if Wikipedia entries are disambiguated solely on the basis of accents, diacritics, symbols or punctuation within such entries' main title headers.
Since there are a number of songs titled "Maria" and "María", those would not be directly-applicable examples. However, there is one film, María (1938 film) and two others, Maria (1975 film} and Maria (2003 film). Should the 1938 film be titled simply María (film) because the accent is already sufficient disambiguation from the other two Maria films?
Furthermore, at Lucia dab page, we have an entry for a film titled Lucía, which does not even have a redirect and is thus inaccessible on standard keyboards from the English-speaking world. The accent cannot be sufficient disambiguation under such circumstances and, yet, that is this entry's status, with no entry at all for the accented Lucía (film) [even if the accented Lucía (film) existed, it could only be accessed through the unaccented Lucia (film)].
There is also an entry for Lucia (2013 film), with Lucia (film) redirecting to that same Lucia (2013 film). Would it not be more helpful to users if we had, instead, Lucia (1968 film) redirecting to the accented entry for Lucía (1968 film), thus depicting a title that is analogous in form to Lucia (2013 film)? Lucia (film) would, of course, redirect to the Lucia dab page.
Still further, to use the "Maria" / "María" analogy, if one songwriter wrote a song with an accented "Lucía" and another songwriter wrote a song with an unaccented "Lucia", should the first song be disambiguated as Lucía (song) and the other as Lucia (song) since the accent is already sufficient disambiguation? Or, should these be disambiguated as Lucía (John Doe song) and Lucia (Richard Roe song)?
Finally, returning to the argument that the exclamation point is already sufficient disambiguation, we have film titles such as Nice Girl? and Sink the Bismarck!. If there were also films titled Nice Girl and Sink the Bismarck (those are currently redirects to the original films), would we be satisfied with two different film articles titled Nice Girl? and Nice Girl, or two different film articles titled Sink the Bismarck! and Sink the Bismarck, based on the explanation that the exclamation point [or question mark] is already sufficient disambiguation?
It might seem that the titles more helpful to users would be Nice Girl? (1941 film) and Nice Girl (1991 film) as well as Sink the Bismarck! (1960 film) and Sink the Bismarck (2010 film). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 08:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like we should not further muddle this discussion by comparing a difference of two or three pixels ("i" vs "í") with a difference of an entire character. They are clearly quite different situations. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:14, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Disambiguation solely by tiny differences, with one main title header possessing ",", "!", "?" ";", "-" or an accent / diacritic, and another, otherwise-identical, header not possessing those is a recipe for inaccuracy. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 05:45, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Those that are opposing this change are making an assumption - that the nuances of titles are known by those searching. Because computer programming understands the difference, does not concur that humans do too. --Richhoncho (talk) 11:20, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – per Station1, the arguments for the paranthetical hold no water. The exclamation mark is enough to disambig, and a paranthetical doesn't make it any easier for the user to find the article --Ilovetopaint (talk) 12:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this move. Readers typing "Hate Me!" are unlikely to be looking for a topic that does not include the exclamation mark. James (talk/contribs) 13:51, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@James Allison: @Ilovetopaint: @Aervanath: yes, I think we all know that/agree that. But since sources aren't consistent with "!" what about users who don't know to type "!" for this song? The reason for this RM is for them. Please see screenshot of right box search results. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:57, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
how do readers who don't know to write "!" find the correct song?
As has already been stated, those users will find it through the redirect that already exists, Hate Me (Children of Bodom song). This move does not in any way help users who don't know about the "!" because they would have to type it anyway before the artist. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:10, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyrael: where is that redirect on the jpg to the right? In ictu oculi (talk) 22:43, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an 8 character limit in the search box now? If you type the space and opening paren (as anyone who was trying to avoid the DAB page would do), then the redirect is the fourth suggestion down. -- Fyrael (talk) 07:32, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@In ictu oculi: Similarly to any other ambiguous phrase typed in by a reader, they would click on or be automatically directed to the disambiguation page (Hate Me) and go from there. Is that not what disambiguation pages are for? James (talk/contribs) 00:04, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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