Talk:Helter Skelter (song)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

The image

put another picture of 1968, because this image is not the time of "Helter Skelter," but the "beatlemaia. Thank you. xD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.92.17.106 (talk) 17:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

That is the sleeve in which HS was released as a B-side in the USA; unless you can provide a better image, I think we're stuck with it. Rodhullandemu 18:00, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I guesse we could draw some glasses on john and a moustache on ringo and upload it but thats the best i can think of XD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.68.227.69 (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I got blisters on my fingers

I always thought it was John Lennon screaming "I got blisters on my fingers" at the end, not Ringo. Anyone know for sure? Postdlf 20:27 4 Apr 2004

I remember reading that no one knows for sure, but that it was most likely Ringo (since he had been playing drums for 27 minutes or however long the original take was) Adam Bishop 00:29, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'd say Ringo. Listen to McCartney talking about it here. He mentions Ringo but I can't claim to hear what he sais exactly. Metallion 00:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it more properly be recorded as "on me fingers"? --BlackTerror 00:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

sorry all, I posted my comment in the wrong section and i forgot to sign, here it is again. I found this on youtube quite by accident and remembered reading here that Ringo had said this line, but at the end of the video you can clearly see John screaming the line into a microphone. Its possible he just did it for the video, but he seems to me too settle it, watch and send me a replay if you agree http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMfkVGCU_BA&feature=related. Wimc1207 (talk) 23:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC) ---I "McCartney got the idea for the song after reading a newspaper review of the latest single by The Who." OK...WHICH single by The Who??? Lee M 23:57, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That's not a clip of "Helter Skelter" in studio, title notwithstanding. That is a clip from the "Get Back" sessions at Twickenham, January 1969. Vidor (talk) 17:55, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The article suggest the single was "I Can See for Miles". This single seems unlikely as "I Can See for Miles" is one The Who's softer songs. A more likely single would be My Generation. This was a much 'louder' song which had highly distorted guitar segments and screaming vocals. Could someone clarify this?

There was no particular single. In the article Pete Townsend mentioned "a track", but not even 1989 Paul McCartney knew which one - if there is one. He got the inspiration from reading the article and not from reading a review. Listen to McCartney talking about it here Metallion 00:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I found this on youtube quite by accident and remembered reading here that Ringo had said this line, but at the end of the video you can clearly see John screaming the line into a microphone. Its possible he just did it for the video, but he seems to me too settle it, watch and send me a replay if you agree http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMfkVGCU_BA&feature=related —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wimc1207 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

No it looks like the maker of the video used stock footage to put it together. The accompanying text in the YouTube link clearly stated that it was Ringo who made the outburst at the end of the song. Steelbeard1 (talk) 03:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
The exact same video commented on six years ago just above by Lee M; that clip is from the "Get Back" sessions. Vidor (talk) 17:57, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Genre

On the Paul McCartney page, the song is referred to as Heavy Metal. On this page, it is Hard Rock. I do not want to start a religious war, but I think both labels are misleading. Early Noise Rock should be most fitting. It is in the repertoire of many bands in that genre as well.

Strange, the article on Noise Rock (a term that I confess I've never heard before) describes the genre as an '80s offshoot of punk. Classing "Helter Skelter" in that category seems rather anachronistic. We can debate whether the song actually is heavy metal, but unquestionably it played an important role in the development of heavy metal, which emerged as a distinct genre only a few years after the song's release. It did not play any direct role in the development of "noise rock," a genre that emerged at least fifteen years later and had punk as its main antecedent. marbeh raglaim 20:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
unquestionably? wtf helter skelter has nothing to do with metal, it's just noise
Says which respected critic? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 16:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I also feel this song is neither Hard Rock or Heavy Metal. However it isn't Noise Rock either... - Prede (talk) 22:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I think Hard rock is right, but not heavy metal. Maybe we should remove that. ☺ Spiby ☻ 12:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Changing to Hard Rock as I tend to agree to this rather than heavy metal, and nobody have said anything here for the past 11 months. Bjelleklang - talk 14:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

hard rock is right i think, heavy metal wasn't born some years after this, it was born roughly some months later with sabbath (beatles fans, at least ozzy is a huge fan) bringing out their first album, so yeah ithink this is heavily influential with the origins of metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.255.115 (talk) 14:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Look guys, I think the right thing to do is write "Hard Rock, Proto Heavy Metal" or just "Proto Heavy Metal" because Heavy Metal was invented in 1969 - 1970 by Black Sabbath, and BEFORE that it's "Proto Heavy Metal" (with reference to 'Heavy Metal Music'). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pilmccartney (talk • contribs) 12:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
For me, it have to be like this...--Julio1017 (talk) 03:15, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
"Helter Skelter (song)/Archive 1"
Song


Broken Link

The first external link - the one that goes to "Instrumentation and lyrics for 'Helter Skelter' "(http://www.thebeatlesongs.com/helter_skelter.htm) is broken. Just thought I'd mention it... Zaita 03:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:The White Album.jpg

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BetacommandBot 03:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"Paul's completely..."

The quote by John Lennon beginning with "Paul's completely ..." found twice in the article (though a different piece of the quote used each time), is used differently in its two instances. The first time, that article states that Lennon said it reflecting his view of the song. The second time, it says that he said it sarcastically. Anyone know which is right? Otherwise there will be two conflicting ideas in the article. Glassbreaker5791 (talk) 01:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you think those quotes conflict?
Regardless, I think sarcastically should be removed; I just reviewed the interview in question and I don't see any remarks to indicate that Lennon was being sarcastic. "completely" is in italics in the book, but that only means that he emphasized the word. In any case, for reasons known only to Lennon, in 1980 when the interview was conducted he wanted to disassociate himself with the song. John Cardinal (talk) 02:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright the "sarcastically" has been removed. That was the only thing that I found made the information conflict, one being sarcastic, the other not. Glassbreaker5791 (talk) 00:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

So, as Lennon himself would say, are we "as happy as Larry" about it now? <g> John Cardinal (talk) 02:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Cleaned up crap from "Trivia" section

People, people, people. "Cultural relevance" should be significant, not "somebody mentioned the song once on, like, Family Guy and here is a detailed summary of that episode! Family Guy roolz!!!!1!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.129.135.114 (talk) 17:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Genre revisited

At present we have Hard rock and Heavy metal. An editor keeps changing the latter to Proto-metal, which is somewhat pointless since this redirects to Heavy metal. In the absence of a reliable source for what "proto-metal" is, I suggest we retain the genres as those that readers will understand. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The recording is something quite its own. Classifying it as hard rock, heavy metal, or, frankly, anything is presumptuous.71.242.159.196 (talk) 06:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps heavy metal is overdoing it? ☺ Spiby ☻ 18:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I think heavy metal is over doing it. The song isn't really a heavy metal song so I would think proto-metal fits good because it was an important hard rock song of the late 1960's in the development of heavy metal. 68.102.235.239 (talk) 04:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Brian Epstein, speaking to reporters three months before the Beatles’ New York arrival of February 1964 (as quoted on page 98 of the 1968 paperback edition of Julius Fast’s The Beatles — The Real Story, Berkley Publishing, New York):
Their beat is something like rock and roll, but different.
There you have it, straight from Epstein himself: The Beatles aren’t even a rock-and-roll band. This song should not be categorized.71.242.135.107 (talk) 06:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Epstein sold washing machines before managing The Beatles so you'd hardly expect him to be reliable as a music critic. The question is "how have reliable sources described this song?", and for that we use sources like Rolling Stone and Allmusic. Not vendors of electrical appliances. --Rodhullandemu 11:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

IMO, a song should not be described, particularly in an infobox, as a genre that did not exist at the time it was created; that would seem to take "heavy metal" and maybe even "hard rock" out of contention. "Proto-metal", which implies a backward-looking point of reference, is right out. Detailed genre definitions, especially on a song-by-song basis for a band with a wide stylistic range, are pretty much a fool's errand for a well-referenced encyclopedia anyway, because sub-genre definitions are so poorly defined, overlapping, and subject to personal history and interpretation. I'd say it's a rock music song, and leave it at that. Jgm (talk) 12:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Gee, Rodhullandemu — I seem to have touched a nerve.71.242.135.107 (talk) 19:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Didn't mean to sound like that. It's just that we do need reliable sources. However Allmusic describe it here as "hard rock", so I don't mind going with that. Certainly heavy metal hadn't been invented at the time, although it was just around the corner. "Proto-metal" here redirects to hard rock, so that doesn't help. Propose we call it "hard rock", source it, and stick to it. I watchlist most of The Beatles stuff and you wouldn't believe the nonsense some people think are appropriate genres for songs. --Rodhullandemu 19:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I can believe that strange classifications have been offered for songs. Although I won’t offer a vote re this song in particular, I’ll note that the discussions here and earlier on this talk page show, at least, that Wikipedia editors are taking seriously the problem the recording poses. I suppose you’re right that the Allmusic passage you’ve linked refers to the song as hard rock — somewhat indirectly. On the other hand, Jgm’s argument, above, for “rock” is good, even if it doesn’t involve footnotable sources.71.242.135.107 (talk) 22:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
User:Helpsloose came up with a citation (put in his comments only) wherein a critic (?) writing some 40 years later, describes the White Album as including "heavy metal" and makes the (not unreasonable) leap that he meant this song in particular. Again, my contention is that since heavy metal did not exist as a genre at the time this song was released, it cannot retroactively be placed in that category. This is a pretty weak reference, both in terms of direct verifiablity (was that really what he meant?) and the veracity/qualifications of the writer, but moreover this may be a policy issue that needs to be discussed on a project page somewhere, more than an issue of how good a particular source or citation might be. Jgm (talk) 17:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Heavy metal did already exist, Deep Purple is a good example: [1]. Helpsloose 18:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

BBC's Daryl Easlea says heavy metal is one of the genres on this album [2], what other song could it be? Helpsloose 17:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course Deep Purple became a heavy metal band (the AMG genre tag is for their overall existence), but they weren't playing "heavy metal" in 1968, both because it didn't exist then and because that wasn't their early sound. Jgm (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

since what we now know as hard rock started with link wrays rumble in 58, he got even more harder with jack the ripper in 61, then louie louie by the kingsmen what made ray davies of the kinks write you really got me and all day and all of the night and so hard rock was born. so i go for hard rock on helter skelter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.255.115 (talk) 14:25, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that this song should be hard rock/heavy metal because saying it's heavy metal is overdoing it, but saying that it is hard rock is underdoing it a bit, because that puts it with songs like Hey Bulldog and Polythene Pam. It is nothing like those. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FootyStavros (talk • contribs) 21:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

In-A-Gadda-da-Vida is listed as a heavy metal song here on wikpedia, that was in 1968 so can't Helter skelter at least be Proto-Metal? It's about as hard as In-a-gadda-da-vida. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FootyStavros (talk • contribs) 18:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

  • I believe that the song genre should be rock and proto-metal with a link like this one here: Proto-metal. This song is in the article about heavy metal music, put as one of the major influences, and by form it really would be a heavy metal song if it had been recorded in the period when heavy metal existed. The same example can be found with The Stooges, who are a proto-punk band, performing music way ahead of their time, among many other proto-future music genre bands. This song is also ahead of its time, and deserves this genre label as a recognition of its importance. I also do not mind leaving hard rock, as all early heavy metal bands have hard rock put in the genre sections of their infoboxes. Milosppf (talk) 12:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

This song's genre should be Proto-Metal at least. What is Proto-Metal? Proto is a Prefix meaning first; preliminary; original. Metal is a loud and harsh sounding rock music with a strong beat; lyrics usually involve violent or fantastic imagery, defined by wordnetweb. Put the two together. Helter Skelter has almost every Metal characteristic; loud, heavy, pounding rhythm, distorted guitar with a heavy riff, roaring vocals. I think a new Consensus has been reached. At least five people think this should be labeled as Proto-Metal, so I'm changing it. 76.123.104.175 (talk) 06:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

First, please sign your edits. (You deleted your sig; I restored it.) Next, consensus is not about counting the editors in favor of a position. Consensus has to consider the strength of the arguments/evidence. Also, many editors who are in favor of leaving the genre as it is now have not commented here.
Where is the evidence tha "Helter Skelter" is proto-metal? Your comments above are original research; the evidence has to come from a reliable source. Without evidence, it doesn't matter how many editors want it to read proto-metal. — John Cardinal (talk) 12:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok I will. Then what is consensus about? How did you get your consensus, how do you know when a consensus is reached? If they didn't comment here how do you know that they are in favor? Evidence? Where is the evidence that its hard rock? You or nobody has provided evidence that its hard rock. So does that mean that the hard rock consensus is not real? Even allmusic.com noted it for its PROTO-METAL ROAR.76.123.104.175 (talk) 09:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

(No need to shout.) "Proto" means preceding the proper beginning of something so AllMusic is saying that this song precedes the genre... and isn't specific about "heavy metal", just "metal". Regarding the current consensus, this topic has come up in the past both here and on other talk pages including the talk page for The Beatles. Also, a variety of different people have edited the article to maintain the status quo. Regarding the "rock" genre there now, I agree that it is unsourced and should be sourced or removed.
Personally, I think the genre assertions in WP are mostly useless, and especially so for sub-genres. There's usually no accepted definition of sub-genres, and the differences between a sub-genre and it's parent genre are subtle at best and inconsistent or trivial. Critics usually do not assign an explicit genre to a song and so sourcing is difficult. For those reasons, I tend to let the main genres stick without explicit sources but I usually argue in favor of explicit sources for sub-genres. That's not WP policy, just my tendency. — John Cardinal (talk) 17:00, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Same thing different words. Yes it precedes metal. Metal is another way to say heavy metal. Even the wiki page says "Heavy metal (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music[1]" Ok so can we change it to proto-metal now? 76.123.104.175 (talk) 18:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


Covers

Should this version sang by former Democratic and Libertarian party presidential hopeful and mixed by rx2008, be put under the covers section? 76.111.88.167 (talk) 04:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Why not? In its unexpected way, it shows more of a feel for the song than, say, U2's version.JohnBonaccorsi (talk) 07:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Genre (yet again)

  • I think Helter Skelter is a mix of Hard rock, Proto-punk and Noise Rock.The beginning is more a mix of proto-punk and Hard rock. All the rest is Hard rock except the last minute and a halfwhich is more noise rock due to the trumpet sound and its fuzz sound.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Eyc2 (talk • contribs)
What we think is largely irrelevant; it's how reliable sources such as rock journalists have described it, and it shouldn't be changed without sources and consensus. Please see previous discussions. Rodhullandemu 22:31, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Helter Skelter, has high pitched screams, Paul McCartney said he wanted to do a one "hard rocking" song, all of the riffs are like on the guitar's lowest strings, I think it's a little more Hard Rock and Heavy Metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.249.67 (talk) 08:31, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I think this would be better because both genres are supported with reliable sources...--SgtPetsounds (talk) 16:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
"Helter Skelter (song)/Archive 1"
Song

Personnel

come on, i love lennon, but it's paul on bass, just like it is george on lead, paul just plays the solo in this song, john wasn't THAT good on the bass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.230.10 (talk) 00:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Source? Rodhullandemu 00:06, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The personnel section is referenced, and besides, there isn't anything going on in the bass line that john's rhythm guitar prowess couldn't cover. They were all fairly talented multi-instrumentalists at this point.Raluboon (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

John couldn't even play the bassline on The Long and Winding Road right, which was probably due to him being pissed at paul overall, but still, this here is in another league than Long and Winding Road. And here's a quote by a source you can't disregard, Mr. Richard Starkey (Ringo) himself: Helter Skelter was a track we did in total madness and hysterics in the studio. Sometimes you just had to shake out the jams, and with that song - Paul's bass line and my drums - Paul started screaming and shouting and made it up on the spot. Ringo Starr Anthology so, that's enough i guess.

Generalize Genres Please!

I changed the article, Generalize Genres Please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolando69 (talk • contribs) 01:51, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Without consensus? No. Discuss first, change to reflect the developed consensus. Rodhullandemu 02:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

OK —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolando69 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I want to Change the genre

I want to change the consensous genre of the article--Rolando69 (talk) 19:52, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I got blisters on my fingers - Jim Carrey

He said it after playing the guitar on "Yes man". Would you think it's worth mentioning in the article? Kvsh5 (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Genre AGAIN

Look, I tried to discuss but people just ignore! man, a lot of people aren't happy with that choice "Hard Rock". How is it hard rock? does it have to do anything with Led Zeppelin's music? or AC/DC's? no! it's different! it's a lot psyechedelic and more noisy. there should be "proto-metal" in the genre. that way, it'll just include all the noises and the screams and the heavy guitar playing.
Here, you asked for it, you get it. A fair source that says exactly that Helter Skelter IS a prototype for what later became heavy metal. http://www.beatlesbible.com/songs/helter-skelter/ 84.108.248.109 (talk) 04:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

That website is nothing but an amateur fansite. And fansites are glorious failures of WP:RS. Wiki libs (talk) 20:07, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
I Believe I have more... http://infernality.blogspot.com/2006/09/origins-and-early-popularity-1960s-and.html 84.108.248.109 (talk) 16:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Another link that fails WP:RS. Wiki libs (talk) 16:28, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Well what about this one? http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:jifrxzlsldfe
And this one too http://www.starpulse.com/Music/Beatles/Discography/album/P3644/R1523/ Pilmccartney (talk) 22:41, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Genre (redivivi)

If Led Zeppelin's "Heartbreaker" is considered heavy metal, surely "Helter Skelter" is also the same? After all, "Heartbreaker" consists of one guitar without too much distortion, "Helter Skelter" has two guitars with much greater distortion. In general, "Helter Skelter" is louder and more heavy sounding than many Zeppelin songs, not just "Heartbreaker"; accordingly, "Helter Skelter" should be Heavy Metal. Lordsurya08 (talk) 07:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC) (by the way, I'm new here, so if I'm screwing anything up then sorry)

Rather than insert comments at the top of this page, it might have been better if you had read down to the bottom and followed previous discussions. There is consensus for "hard rock" as that is sourced, and any change needs a new consensus to be negotiated. Best of luck with that, but meanwhile I've reverted your edit pending discussion. Rodhullandemu 16:30, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Negotiate?! Negotiate?! People, one by one, visting this page, trying to edit as they believe the genre should be, bringing sources, and "hard rock" is a consensus?! I think the discussions should be whether making it "proto heavy metal" or simply "heavy metal" and not "hard rock" which no-one agreed for it.84.108.248.109 (talk) 22:06, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
The consensus is based not upon personal opinions, but upon what reliable sources say. And those who come here with such sources that differ should at least have the courtesy to make their proposals here before making changes so that other editors have a chance to comment; that's the minimum we tend to require. Rodhullandemu 22:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
There, I found a source that says clearly that "Helter Skelter" is a proto-metal song, here. Therefor, I suggest to change the genre into "Proto heavy metal" or "Proto metal" with a "heavy metal music" link. Like that: Proto heavy metal. Do I get your agreement?84.108.248.109 (talk) 18:44, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
A source that proves Helter Skelter is a proto metal / heavy metal tune at heavymetalandplace84.111.104.137 (talk) 08:16, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011

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--CactusBot (talk) 18:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone seemed to have vandalized the page saying, "卐卐卐 JÈWS DID 9/11 卍卍卍". Anybody know who did it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.226.118 (talk) 07:37, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I want to request this article to be "semi-protected"

The reason I want this page to be semi-protected is because to provent spam and other scams.

Please let a admin respond to me.

POSTED BY: Apron Jim — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apron Jim (talk • contribs) 16:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Heavy metal

This song IS heavy metal, not hard rock. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.243.74 (talk) 22:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Genre.

I think the genre of this song is heavy metal. After I read the heavy metal article I found out that it resembles every part of heavy metal. Many might say heavy metal wasn't invented at that time,and that Black Sabbath influenced by the song made a heavy metal song. Let mesay one thing, whenever someone releases a music they don't classify the genre. Like Linkin Park introduced new a new genre in their new album, but they didn't classify the genre. There's always a root of something, let it be music, science or anything else, but we can't simply leave out the root, can we? Today we listen to rock, but we don't know who invented it. It might be a Greek guy at 160, but we don't know it because no one ever wrote it down. Now we know that it has a major influence on the development of heavy metal, but listen to it yourselves, this song is a heavy metal.I hope everyone gets it. Now can I add Heavy Metal beside Hard Rock? Thank You. Phymacheo (talk) 07:28, 24 August 2012 (UTC)Phymacheo[1]

Could you please provide some reliable sources that support your opinion? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 21:24, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

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--BroVinny (talk) 01:26, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

U2 Cover

Is there any reason the live U2 cover on Rattle and Hum isn't mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BroVinny (talk • contribs) 09:40, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Because any mention of it keeps getting removed, from what I've seen. The U2 cover should definitely be included. I don't think it's any exaggeration to say U2 were the biggest band in the world at that time, 1987–88 – and they choose to include the song as the opening track of their 1988 album. With Bono's spoken introduction, they provide a comment on the song's unfortunate association with Manson, and if there's any concept or overall theme to Rattle and Hum, as I understand it, it's an exploration of old American musical themes versus modern America. We just need reliable sources to support those points, of course. JG66 (talk) 03:59, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

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Picture sleeve

@JG66: File:The Beatles "Helter Skelter" US picture sleeve.jpg is not part of the actual 1976 single release. I can't tell whether the picture sleeve is authentic, but looking at the sticker saying "Limited Orange Vinyl Edition" with the Capital Records logo in the middle and "S7-18899", I believe that the sleeve is intended for the 1996 jukebox-only re-release. I'm planning to replace the current sleeve with the Japanese one, which puts "Helter Skelter" as the Side-A track and to change the infobox reflecting the Japanese release. Would that do? -- George Ho (talk) 22:48, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

George Ho: Hi, and thanks for raising it here. It does seem you're right that it's not the 1976 US release at all (which was Capitol 4274). I'd rather avoid using the Japanese 1976 sleeve – I think the text/non-Roman script is really off-putting here on English Wikipedia, given that the image is meant to be the "primary means of visual identification" of the article's subject. (The picture of the musicians might be instantly familiar to some readers, but very very few are going to look at that Japanese '76 sleeve and think "Yes, the Beatles' 'Helter Skelter'.")
I'd prefer to clarify in a caption what the existing sleeve is, because the band pic is pretty familiar as a contemporary (1968) publicity shot. And all the sleeve text is instantly informative, of course. JG66 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

@JG66: Changed the caption. Nevertheless, if you prefer another early release, that would be great. I can upload copyright-free side label from a 1976 release showing a B-side track. George Ho (talk) 11:27, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for that, George. I think the current image does the job perfectly, for the reasons explained.
I'm interested in what you say about a free label image from the 1976 single – not for this article, but perhaps for Helter Skelter (scenario). When you say it's copyright-free, do you mean in the sense that any generic Capitol label is a free image? Thanks, JG66 (talk) 04:07, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
@JG66: I uploaded two versions:
  • File:Helter Skelter by The Beatles B-side label US vinyl (copy 2).png
  • File:Helter Skelter by The Beatles B-side label US vinyl (copy 1).png
    • If the "(scenario)", then I don't know which section I must put the image. George Ho (talk) 05:15, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
    I'd say it belongs almost anywhere at Scenario. Towards the end of the Background section wouldn't be too bad, for a start.
    I've done a bit of work there over the years, but I can't say I'm very familiar with the article. What it might say, but possibly doesn't, is that the Beatles' "Helter Skelter" suddenly became a song of interest as a result of the 1976 TV dramatisation of Bugliosi's book on the Manson trial; Capitol instantly smelled a commercial opportunity, but got itchy feet about issuing the song as a single A-side (I've added all these details here in the song article). If that info's in the Scenario article, then the Capitol single label would belong there instead.
    But can you just confirm that it is a case of all generic Capitol single labels being copyright-free? That point's of interest for many, many song articles, of course. JG66 (talk) 06:49, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
    The Scenario article mentions primarily the song but doesn't mention the 1976 single release or "Capitol Records". I guess adding a label wouldn't help much, would it?

    As for the last question, I don't know how "generic", but a label must have text with plain font and simple color(s) and must have simple, plain background color but without a drawing of The Capitol. If it has a symbol/logo, the shape should be simple. That way, a label would be un-copyrightable (though with trademarked logo). (File:Columbia Records logo.svg is not copyrightable in the US, despite the way circles interact each other (or form some eye-looking wave?).) There's another example, File:Fly Like an Eagle by Steve Miller US vinyl A-side.png. Some more at c:Category:Capitol Records @Commons. Most Capitol Records labels manufactured in mid-1970s should be okay to upload, though GIMP works best to eliminate areas of images and with alpha channel. Unsure about the File:I-Wish-I-Didn't-Love-You-So-1947-Capitol.jpg, which was manufactured in 1940s but has the Capitol drawing. George Ho (talk) 07:27, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

    Then again, the image is free to use. Nevertheless, WP:IUP#Image content applies. George Ho (talk) 07:48, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
    Exactly, the image is free, and it just has to be relevant – which I think it is at Helter Skelter (scenario)#Background, and/or later in that article.
    Thanks for your explanation about the Capitol labels. JG66 (talk) 07:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
    You're welcome. Almost forgot: vinyl labels (sometimes part of "typographical arrangements") manufactured outside the US are subject to copyright, though duration is a little shorter than others. One label (File:Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da by The Marmalades UK vinyl Side-A.png) made and published in the UK was copyrighted as a "published edition" for 25 years since its first release, which Australia also does. According to copyright law of Ireland, those arrangements ("published editions") are copyrighted for 50 years for such works made in Ireland. BTW, I'm thinking about alternatively using the cover art of The Beatles (album) as a better alternative since the passage mentions the album as a whole. It would be more relevant than the B-side label for the Background section. How about that? George Ho (talk) 08:58, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
    My head's swimming with label-copyright particulars now, George ... I'll have to take a rain check on that point(!).
    Re using the White Album cover at HS scenario: sure, why not. I think if that article was properly worked on and expanded, both images would appear: White Album early on, as part of Manson's inspiration; the Helter Skelter label with a discussion of the scenario's portrayal in the media and standing in modern culture. JG66 (talk) 09:59, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

    Bass player

    I'm not a Beatles expert but I think the comment on the archive is correct. This is definitely Paul on bass, as corroborated by Ringo's full quote. John played bass on the slower, bluesier arrangement. Jules TH 16 (talk) 17:31, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

    is vs is claimed to be

    Collection of direct quotes on the matter whether >>"Helter Skelter" was assumed to be interpreted by cult leader Charles Manson<<, or >>"Helter Skelter" was interpreted by cult leader Charles Manson<< (as a message predicting inter-racial war in the US), and further mentions of this:

    The Helter Skelter scenario is a theory put forward by Vincent Bugliosi, the lead prosecutor in the Tate–LaBianca murder trial. It is mostly based on the testimony of Paul Watkins, as a motive for the series of murders that were committed by the Manson Family in order to convict Charles Manson of conspiracy to commit murder. Bugliosi described his theory at trial and in his subsequent book Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders. According to Bugliosi's theory, Manson often spoke to the members of his "family" about Helter Skelter in the months leading up to the murders of Sharon Tate and Leno and Rosemary LaBianca in August 1969, an apocalyptic war arising from racial tensions between Black and White people. This involved reference to music of the Beatles, particularly songs from their self-titled 1968 double album (also known as the "White Album"), and the New Testament's Book of Revelation. Other scenarios besides Helter Skelter exist, with some writers, police detectives, attorneys involved with the case, and perpetrators identifying the Tate–La Bianca murders as either copycat killings, revenge for a bad drug deal, or a combination of two or all three.

    • From linked wiki page Charles Manson: (see the references there for more info)

    According to Los Angeles County District Attorney, Vincent Bugliosi, Manson felt guided by his interpretation of the Beatles' lyrics and adopted the term "Helter Skelter" to describe an impending apocalyptic race war. During his trial, Bugliosi argued that Manson had intended to start a race war, although Manson and others disputed this. Contemporary interviews and trial witness testimony insisted that the Tate–LaBianca murders were copycat crimes intended to exonerate Manson's friend Bobby Beausoleil.

    • From "The Influence of the Beatles on Charles Manson" (Linder, Douglas (2007)) - already cited on this page before I edited anything here:

    "The interpretations on this page are generally those offered by Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, based on his interviews with several Manson Family members. The interpretations are discussed in Bugliosi's book Helter Skelter, pages 238-245." 

                           But as far as lining up someone for some kind of helter skelter trip,
                       you know, that's the District Attorney's motive. That's the only
                       thing he could find for a motive to throw up on top of all that
                       confusion he had.There was no such thing in my mind as helter
                       skelter. Helter skelter was a song and it was a nightclub - we
                       opened up a little after-hours nightclub to make some money and
                       play some music and do some dancing and singing and play some
                       stuff to make some money for dune buggies to go out in the
                       desert. 
                       And we called the club Helter Skelter. It was a helter skelter club
                       because we would be there and when the cops would come, we'd
                       all melt into other dimensions because it wasn't licensed to be
                       anything in particular. And that was kind of like a speakeasy back
                       in the moonshine days behind the movie set.

    Manson repeatedly uses this phrase just as a synonym to "chaos" or "bumpy ride" (or other similar terms), as in the common usage.

    ... so, IMO, this is obviously a claim of Bugliosi. It's been disputed by numerous parties, including both the detectives on the case, attorneys, and perpetrators, including Manson. Only person who at least partially agreed with this claim of Bugliosi is Paul Watkins, by saying "Then we started from the 'Revolution 9' song on the Beatles album which was interpreted by Charlie to mean the Revelation 9." etc. In no transcript I could find does he connect the phrase "Helter Skelter" (understood as the song title) or its lyrics directly to CM actions or beliefs. There's mention of Manson's use the phrase "helter skelter" later on repeatedly as a common phrase, meaning roughly just "chaotic ride" (subject to interpretation). He obviously was generally inspired by Beatles' songs and their lyrics, including this one, but saying that HS (song) itself has solely or mainly inspired his beliefs and visions, or that it was interpreted by him to explicitly mean an impending apocalyptic race war (instead of e.g. the other way around, i.e. him having this notion from the beginning and finding references to his ideas in the song) is completely contradicted by available source material.

    • One of the other sources claims this (said by Watson, only edited, so the credit goes to him):

    Then there was the song "Helter Skelter" itself. None of us had any way of knowing that in England this was another term for a slide in an amusement park. When Charlie interpreted lines like "When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide . . ." as a description of our coming back up out of the Bottomless Pit, it seemed to make sense to us, as it did when he used other parts of the song to plot out our escape route to the desert.

    To Charlie, however, the most significant band on the album wasn't a song at all. "Revolution 9" (underscore mine)

    Both state that (and that agrees with CM himself), that while the song title & lyrics proved inspirational, it's the Revolution 9 that was the main inspiration and subject of interpretation, and none other than Bugliosi claims a direct correspondence between the song and sum of violent CM's actions or beliefs/preachings/ramblings (however we call them). As such, the only one stating this with certainty and enough credibility, relevance and clarity is Bugliosi. Thus, I say the only objective and NPOV-way to phrase it is to say it like it is in the sources - that it is just a claim, and leave the possible ponderings to the educated reader. 83.233.189.145 (talk) 15:17, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

    1. ^ Paul McCartney.
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