Talk:Henri-Georges Clouzot/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

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I'll be taking on this review. At a glance, the article appears to be well-written, well sourced and comprehensive. I'm sure it'll pass with very little problem! I've only just started my run through, but will be adding more as I proceed. Please address each item line-by-line and I'll strike them as I go... — Hunter Kahn (c) 06:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • This is not a major problem, but you say in the lead that The Mystery of Picasso "was declared a national treasure by the government of France". Although this is properly cited, it is not included in the body of the article itself, and I feel it should be. Could you drop it in near where Picasso is discussed, at the end of the second paragraph in "Return to filmmaking and acclaim (1947-1960)"? Once you do that, you can drop the inline citation from the lead and just use it in the body of the article itself...
  • "...Clouzot was an early fan of the cinema and desired a career as a writer." Reading this, I assume it means he desired a career as a writer of films, specifically. Is this right? If so, can you change it to "as a screenwriter" to make it more clear? If not, the sentence needs to be reworked to clear up the misconception...
  • The source I have simply says writer. It mentioned some magazine names, and I've tried to find information about them with no luck, so I can not really find anything about what kind of writer he wanted to be.
  • "...to work in Berlin working on..." The word "work" is used twice in the sentence here. Can you change the second one to something else? Preferably something that specifies more clearly what he did during this time on French-language versions of German films (Directing? Producing? Writing?)
  • Fixed. Removed extra work and added the writing which is what he was doing. Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clouzot's relationship with Continental led to him being barred by the French government from filmmaking until 1947." Just to avoid the passive voice and "to be" verb, I'd suggest changing this to, "As a result of his association with Continental, Clouzot was barred by the French government from filmmaking until 1947."
  • "Clouzot's career was more minimal with a few television documentaries and two more feature films in the 1960s." I feel like this sentence could be reworded and made a bit stronger. "was more minimal" in particular leaves a bit to be desired...
  • Changed!Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I changed it to: "Clouzot's career became less active in later years, limited to a few television documentaries and two feature films in the 1960s." Is this one OK with you? — Hunter Kahn (c) 05:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Early years:

  • You mention the mother and father in this section, but to keep this consistent with other biography articles, I would suggest you incorporate it into the first sentence. Something like: "Henri-Georges Clouzot was born in Niort, France, to mother Suzanne Clouzot and father Georges Clouzout, a book store owner. He was the first of three children in a middle class family."
  • Incorporated!Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unless I'm missing something, this change doesn't seem to have been made. — Hunter Kahn (c) 05:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oops. I mis-read that you wanted that in the intro to the article. I've changed it where you specified now. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The same source that said Clouzot played piano recitals at age four also indicated he was writing plays during his very early youth. Could you drop that into here?
  • Oops. I think I was interested in the piano recital thing and missed the plays information. Fixed.
  • I'm guessing Babelsburg Studios is the same as Studio Babelsberg? If so, could you wikilink it

Screenwriting career (1931-1942):

  • "The film is a 15-minute comedy short with three actors." Does your source include anything about what La Terreur des Batignolles was about? If so, can you add just a brief sentence or two describing it?
  • Outside it being a comedy (it's sometimes incorrectly called a thriller), there isn't much more information in my sources. The film did not have much of an impact on his career and isn't really relevant outside that it was his first directorial effort. It's hard to even view it oneself as the authors of the book only base their findings about it on what other critics and friends of Clouzot have said who have seen it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I did a quick Google Books search on this title and most of the references I see are consistent with what you are saying, that the short film isn't particularly notable except that it's hist first directorial effort, so I think the way you have it is fine... — Hunter Kahn (c) 05:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His friends and family gave Clouzot both moral and financial support as he had no money." I tripped over the wording here a bit. Could we reword it to something like "Clouzot had no money during this period, and was provided with financial and moral support from his family and friends."
    Rephrased! Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clouzot's health problems kept him from military service." Is there anything you can add from the source about which health problems prohibited him and why?
    I think it's the TB, but the other sources state the Myopia kept him from Naval academy. I can't find much as Clouzot was effected by so many illnesses I don't think historians have kept up on which one it exactly was that made him unfit for military service. Sorry, I don't have an answer for this one. Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm going to leave this one unstricken for now, as I'd really like this bit to be included if at all possible. In the event that you stumble on this, please drop it in; however, if by the end of this GAN review the info is still unattainable, I won't hold up the GA over it. — Hunter Kahn (c) 05:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! I fixed all the situations you recommended. I don't think the piano info is too important for the lead as their is nothing else career or life wise that suggests his music ability or taste later on. So I don't think it's important enough to be part of the lead. The cite about his desire to be a writer is hard to decipher, the cite only says he wanted to be a writer, not specifically for films. So I can't help with that one. The books I have about La Terreur des Batignolles all mention that the authors have not seen the films! They take what info they have from them from critics who have seen prints of it. I think Clouzot's wife info saying that the film did not do much for Clouzot's career suggests it's actual importance of the film and it's plot and everything else are probably not that important. The military service info doesn't relate much as it's the only source. I'm not sure if it's his TB or the myopia. In general, Clouzot was never really healthy and was plagued with a lot of problems so since I can't find a cite, a reader will have to use his or her own conclusions on that one. Thanks for the advice so far!Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC) Ignore this. I should re-read how you want things reviewed. I've fixed it now! Cheers. Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Early directorial work:

  • Something I'm noticing here is you need to add the years some of these movies were worked on and released. For example, rather than, "Clouzot began work on his second Steeman adaptation..." something like "1942, Clouzot began..." Or, at the very least, you need to say The Murderer Lives at Number 21 was released in 1942 (or whatever year it was). The same goes for Le Corbeau, there is no indication of when that movie was released...
    I've added the years and appropriate cites. I do not believe exact production dates are known as lots of information about the Nazi operated Continental films was lost or destroyed after World War II. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I see there are still a few films without years. For those still missing, perhaps you could look a bit further for sources with those years? For The Murderer Lives at Number 21, for example, I simply did a Google Books search and found several sources that indicate the release year is 1942...
  • "Le Corbeau would be the last film that Fresnay and Clouzot would work together on, since Clouzot had used all possible means to try to anger Fresnay during the filming and this caused a large fray in their friendship." This is an interesting little statement, but it gives me the feeling that I'm missing a lot of the back story. Why is Clouzot trying to anger Fresnay? Did they have some sort of friendly rivalry that went sour, or did they genuinely dislike each other? Or was it all related to Clouzot quarreling with Fresnay's wife? What kind of things did Clouzot do to anger him? Could you maybe add a bit more to this or help clarify it for me?
    I've expanded on this a bit. Clouzot was known for being very demanding and sometimes even violent with his actors. It's not specific what Clouzot did with Fresnay as all I have to work off of is that Fresnay says Clouzot wasn't violent with him. After sometime sort of argument between Clouzot with Fresnay's wife, it sort of put a permanent end to their relationship. I've tried to edit the text so it explains that more clearly now. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...with nearly 250,000 people having seen it in the first months of its initial release." I dunno if this one is doable, but is it possible to add a little context to this? In other words, some sort of indication as to what the average viewership of a movie is in the first months of its initial release? To compare to the 250,000 number and demonstrate that it really is a high amount? I only ask because compared to a big expensive Hollywood blockbuster, I'm not sure the average reader would think 250,000 people is necessarily a lot...
    I sadly do not think there is. Weirdly, most of the books give this amount but do not really expand on it saying how this compares to other films other saying basically "It was popular, this many people saw it. Woo!". If you want I can just re-state that it was a popular with audiences on it's initial release. or something. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was attacked by the right-wing Vichy regime, the left-wing Resistance press and the Catholic church." Could you add a little bit about why they attacked it, and/or what they didn't like about the film?
    Will do when I have those sources at hand. I'm currently away from those sources.

Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Clouzot was sentenced by being forbidden..." Again, trying to get rid of that pesky "to be" verb passive voice. Can you reword this to something like, "For his sentence, Clozout was forbidden from..."?
    Re-phrased. I think I know what you mean. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Return to filmmaking and acclaim:

  • Again, just look through here and make sure you are putting in years for the movie releases where applicable...
    Okay I think I've added it.
  • "For Quai des Orfèvres, Clouzot asked the author for a copy of his novel Légitime défense and started writing the script before the novel arrived for him to read." What author?
    Added author. It was Stanislas-André Steeman again. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I just tweaked the wording a bit. Please make sure it's still correct...
  • "Clouzot also worked on the short film Le Retour de Jean..." By worked on, I'm guessing you mean directed? Or did he write it too? Or did he only write it? Also, I'm guessing this one is like La Terreur des Batignolles and we don't have much information about what Le Retour de Jean is about? Or if we do, could you drop it in?
    I've added some information on what it's about. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the film's production, Clouzot met Véra Gibson-Amado..." What was her role in the production? Was she appearing as an actor in the film?
    She met her through one of the other actors on set. It's mentioned in the "Personal Life" section in the article. Should this be moved? Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Nope, it's fine where it is.
  • "...made his first attempt at making a documentary film." In order to get rid of the two redundant "makes", I was going to change this to "made his first attempt at directing a documentary film." I wanted to make sure that was correct before I did it. (In other words, I wanted to make sure he wasn't simply producing it and not directing, which strikes me as unlikely, but better safe than sorry...)
  • "Véra and Clouzot returned to France with the book Le cheval des dieux, a recounting his trip." I'm confused by this. Did they write the whole book while they were on this trip? (How long was this trip, anyway? Can you add that in?) If so, you should reword it to reflect that more accurately; right now it reads like they simply bought a book while they were there. lol
    No real information how long he was gone. I think if someone looks at the time inbetween making Wages of Fear and his previous film they can get an idea on how long it was. And umm...haha about the book. I've fixed it to make it sound like he didn't just buy a book. oops. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clouzot was very anxious to film Arnaud's story, finding it easy to imagine the setting for the film." I try to avoid the -ing verb where I can. Could we reword this to "Clouzot found it easy to imagine the setting of the script and was very anxious to film Arnaud's story."
    Re-worded! Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clouzot wrote the film with his brother, Jean Clouzot, who would collaborate with him on all his subsequent films under the name of Jérôme Geronimi." Unless I'm missing something here, you don't ever identify the Arnaud film by name (or, once again, the year it was released). When I first read this, I thought it was The Wages of Fear because of the segue...
    It's Wages of Fear. I think it's more clear now. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In order to gain as much independence as possible, Clouzot created his own production company called Véra Films." Just out of curiosity, did he name the company after his wife? Is that in a source? If so, could you mention it here?
    Yes it's named after his wife. I've added that there.
  • "The Wages of Fear was the second most popular film in France in 1953 and had nearly 7 million spectators." In my opinion, whenever somebody says something was the "second most" something, they should always say what the first one was, or the reader feels like they are left hanging. lol. Could you drop that in? Something like "The Wages of Fear was the second most popular film in France in 1953 (behind TITLE HERE]]) and was seen by..."
    I'd love to add it but the books are stupid and do not mention what was the most popular one. I'd have to look at them again. If I can't find anything, would changing it to "one of the most popular films in France..." be good? Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Ehh...leave it as it is for now, but if you ever find that 1st most popular, add it right away! lol
  • "It won awards for best film and best actor..." Should those be capitalized?
    Fixed-up. You are right on the capitalization. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In this early and mid-'50s period, Clouzot came to be fully embraced by international critics and audiences, with the films The Wages of Fear and Diabolique. Both movies were screened and reviewed in America as well as in France, and were rated among the best thrillers of the decade." In my opinion, both of these two sentences should be moved to right before the sentence "Clouzot filmed The Wages of Fear in 1951 and 1952." Right now, as I indicated above, I think the segue from the Arnaud film into The Wages of Fear is a little awkward. Also, as the article stands right now, you talk about The Wages of Fear, then mention how Clouzot gained success with The Wages of Fear and Diabolique, then you go back to talking about The Wages of Fear again. However, just moving those two sentences back I think fixes both problems...
    I think you are right. I wish I were a greater writer! Thanks! Moved it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • One thing that I think really needs addressing here is I think you need to better describe what these movies are about. I've honestly never seen any of these movies, so reading this article, I have no clue what The Wages of Fear, Diabolique, Les Espions and La Vérité are about. You don't need to go into a lot of detail, just give the reader an idea by adding a sentence (or two at the maximum), then they can read more about it on the individual film's Wikipedia entries if they want to...
    I've added them. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You give an indication as to what The Mystery of Picasso is about when you indicate it is about Pablo Picasso. However, I saw when I went to the film's page that it shows Picasso in the act of creating paintings for the camera, then subsequently destroying them so they would only exist on film. I find that pretty intriguing! Can you add a brief sentence describing that in this article?
    I've added that information now. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was later was declared a national treasure by the government of France." I see from the source that it was declared a national treasure in 1984. Can you add that year to this sentence? Or, if you prefer, you could phrase it something like "28 years after its initial release" or something like that...
    Fixed! Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clouzot later admitted that he only liked the first two-thirds of Les Espions." If the source doesn't have this info it's not a big deal, but did Clouzot say what in particular he didn't like about the latter third of the film?
    It doesn't. This quote was taken just to just show how he felt pretty unhappy about his previous work with the rise of the french new wave. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clouzot's next film La Vérité was made after producer Raoul Levy suggested Clouzot to make the film with Brigitte Bardot as the lead." This sentence doesn't flow very well. Could you take a crack at rewording it? Also, was Levy suggesting Bardot specifically for the lead of this particular film? Or was Levy just saying he wanted Clouzot to make any movie with Bardot in it?
    I've re-phrased that. Is it more clear now? Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "La Vérité was the second most popular film in France in 1960..." Again, I'd really like to know the first one. (I'm guessing Breathless?)
  • Again, I'm the books I'm going to are not that useful. Should this also be changed to "was one of the most popular films of the year"? Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If it's any help, this source seems to state that La Vérité was the highest grossing French film of the year (not sure if gross is counted only in France or worldwide, but I'd assume the former holds regardless). This line is quoted verbatim in several other pop sources, such as iTunes and Winamp. As a second source, here it says that La Vérité outgrossed all the New Wave films of that year. -Krasnoludek (talk) 20:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
From the Clouzot books I've read, I did not read about this. I'm not against these sources at all, but they do not even cite authors. :) Could they be mixing up the facts with it being Bardot's top grossing film? If the sources seem to be mixing it up, we can maybe re-phrase it to say again that it's again one of the highest grossing films of that year in France. Film history is frustrating. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I prefaced my comment with "if this helps" :-) I could not find any source that I would consider credible enough to support such a figure, and with something like box office numbers one should be able to find a solid source, but it's hard!!! Any books I came across just mentioned that the movie was a counterexample to the dominance of New Wave filmmakers over the established directors, but no figures are cited. -Krasnoludek (talk) 22:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed! When it comes to French cinema stuff, I always found all this "theory" and "style" but not as much about facts and history. That's important too. Bah. We'll figure it out. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Later career and failing health:

  • "...French film critics who were part of the French New Wave and refused to take his films seriously." If I'm not mistaken, only filmmakers can be categorized as part of the French New Wave, not critics, right? If so, do you mean critics who were proponents of the French New Wave? Could you reword if so?
    Many film makers part of the French New Wave started out as critics (Francois Truffaut, Jean-Luc Godard, etc.) so I guess I should re-phrase this.
  • What was L'Enfer about?
    Added. Weird story. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...five television documentaries with Herbert von Karajan between 1965 and 1967." Just checking, but I'm guessing in this case these documentaries on their own weren't particularly notable, and that's why they aren't identified by name here?
    I haven't seen them and they are barely brought up. (imdb doesn't even list all of them). From what I gather they are just filmed concerts. I'll add a little info. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Just so I'm clear, were all five of the documentaries about Herbert von Karajan conducting symphony orchestras? Or just some of them?
    All of them to my knowledge.
  • What is Laa Prisonnière about?
    Added brief plot summary. (It's apparently the same as The Story of O) which I haven't seen. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clouzot incorporated elements of his aborted film L'enfer for the project." What does this mean exactly? Were ideas from L'enfer used? Or portions of the script were used? Or actual footage from that film was used in La Prisonniere? Could you reword to explain?
    I've expanded this a bit.
  • "The 1970s were not a productive time for Clouzot. Clouzot wrote a few more scripts without ever filming them." This reads a bit POVish to me. Could you change it to something more about how his work became less frequent, rather than something like "it wasn't a productive" time which sounds kind of like point of view?
I've re-phrased it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clouzot planned a script for a film about Indochina that was dropped after producers gave into threats of censorship." Does the source indicate more specifically what the issues were that led to threats of censoring?
    On reading back I can not find even the censorship information! I've removed it for now, I'll re-add it once I find out where I got that information from.
  • "Clouzot also planned to make a pornographic film in 1974 for Francis Micheline." This strikes me as a bit unusual. Why would a feature film director decide to make a porn film? Can you include a bit more information on this?
    There isn't much info, and I've lent this DVD to a friend for a time being, but I recall that Marc Godin who researched Clouzot's life states that Clouzot was obsessed with sex. Once I get writing about the plot of his last film La prisonniere you'll see what I mean. I can not find much more information about him wanting to make a pornographic film and Godin states it's a "little known fact". I can remove if you feel it's too questionable. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    By no means should it be deleted, I think it's an interesting little tidbit. Expanding this in the future if you get the sources would be great, but for now leave it.

Personal life:

  • Where is the Deus Anes Cabaret? What city or whatever?
Not sure as I've found other places with similar names. This story on how they met is only mentioned from various interviewed people on the disc so I haven't found much luck finding how else they had met. It's in France from the best I can gather if that helps! Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Delair eventually left Clouzot after working with him on Quai des Orfèvres." Does your source indicate why she left him? If not, no biggie...
  • I do not think I can find that. I had trouble even pin-pointing when Delair left him! Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead of this article says, "Véra died of a heart attack and Clouzot's career suffered due to depression." But the mention of her death in the "Personal life" section doesn't mention the heart attack, nor the fact that her death contributed to his depression and/or career decline. Can you add this into the body of the article itself? (My concern is addressed, but please not the question by Krasnoludek below...) — Hunter Kahn (c) 02:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • When writing this, I guess I assumed I just wrote a lot of it already. I've added it back in there. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if this is the best place to add this, but I wanted a quick clarification on the sentence "Clouzot met his second wife, Inès de Gonzalez, for the first time on the set of at a casting call for a film". Did he meet her at the casting call for the film or on the set of the film? It seems like two ideas got merged here. -Krasnoludek (talk) 22:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Big oops. Fixed up. Thanks! I'm glad we have a few people looking over this whale of an article! Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy:

  • Can you drop in just a word or so indicating who Noël Herpe is? Like "Twenty years after his death, scholar Noël Herpe..." or "film critic Noël Herpe" or "film historian Noël Herpe" or whatever he is?

Almost there now! :) — Hunter Kahn (c) 05:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Final comments[edit]

A good article is:

  1. Well-written: Prose is good, MOS is good.
  2. Factually accurate and verifiable: Sources are good, no original research.
  3. Broad in its coverage: Covers main aspects, no unneeded detail.
  4. Neutral: Yes.
  5. Stable: Yes.
  6. Illustrated, if possible, by images: Yes.

Nice job, Andrzejbanas, and thanks for your patience in working through my comments and addressing them one-by-one. I would like to leave you with a bit of advice, though. I'm not sure if you are planning on following this through to a featured article nomination down the road. I hope you do, and I think there is potential here for an FA; all the elements are there, as the article I think encompasses just about every element of Clouzot's life and is fairly comprehensive from that regard. However, I don't think it's quite to FAC-standards yet, mainly because I think you need to strengthen it with more resources. You yourself indicated to me that you had a limited amount of English book sources about Clouzot, but I know they are out there. Just a quick search at Google Books and at Google Scholar turns up a few, and I think if you were to visit a library and use some of the academic database resources there you'd be surprised how many you might find. During this GAN process, there were a few times when I asked questions and you couldn't definitively answer because the sources you had didn't include the information. If you cast a wider net for more sources, I think you'd find a lot of those blanks could be filled in.

However, even if it's not quite ready for FA, I think the article as it stands right now certainly meets GA standards, so I won't hold it up for that reason. Congratulations, that's a pass! — Hunter Kahn (c) 21:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'll try to make this article better. There are a few books out there with more sources, but none in my reach. My local university only had one in English (the one titled Henri-Georges Clouzot) so without learning French, I'm left a bit in the dark here for this one. I'll see what I can do though! Thanks for taking the time to review this!Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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