Talk:Hermann Stieve

File:HermannStieve.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:HermannStieve.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations What should I do? Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Commons Undeletion Request To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:HermannStieve.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 06:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Problems with this article

• This article reads like a machine translation.
• It seems to me to paint Stieve in an unduly favourable light -- "found him not guilty on any account and thus urged the renown scientist Hermann Stieve", for example
• The sentence "Stieve published his histologic and anatomic findings based on those studies which were, for many years later, found to be essential for understanding the function of the female reproductive system." "Essential" is a strong claim to make -- can we pin down a specific source for this, or remove it?
• It refers to a "Institute for Anatomy of the Chariteé" (also "Anatomic Institute of the Chariteé") that seems only to be mentioned elsewhere on the web in the context of this article: possibly this is another machine translation artifact?

Update: no, this appears to be a real thing: the Center for Anatomy of the Charité

• All of the above appears to have been introduced in a single edit (diff) by User:DocHu, an account which seems to have edited only on topics related to Hermann Stieve. (See http://toolserver.org/~luxo/contributions/contributions.php?user=DocHu&blocks=true ) -- Gigacephalus (talk) 08:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Maybe it was quickly edited due to reading this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21086388 --Pjacobi (talk) 08:53, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

No, the edit was made on 2 February 2011. The BBC article today says "Stieve worked closely with the prison in Berlin where prisoners were executed." -- how "close" or otherwise this was is crucial to any record of Stieve's life. It's interesting that the previous revision used exactly the words ""When a woman of reproductive age was due to be executed, Stieve was informed, a date of execution was decided upon, and the prisoner told the scheduled date of her death," which is reported in the BBC article as a direct quote from Wiiliam Seidelman's paper in Dimensions: A Journal of Holocaust Studies. I'm not clear if the wording "a date of execution was decided upon" is evidence that Stieve was involved in the process of setting the date of death. but if he had been, it would be clear evidence of complicity. -- Gigacephalus (talk) 08:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've just rewritten the article based on two sources: one by Seidelmen, another by Winkelmann and Schagen. The latter seem to have soundly refuted the former's claim, based on a third-hand report of a Stieve lecture 50 years earlier, that Stieve permitted rape. They have also concluded that Stieve didn't time the women's executions according to their menstrual cycles. If someone wants to go further into that controversy, by all means do so but please be sure anything you add is supported by sources that conform to these policies: WP:RS and WP:NPOV. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Adding this source here for later use

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/2013/11/nazi_anatomy_history_the_origins_of_conservatives_anti_abortion_claims_that.html Gamaliel (talk) 03:32, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I thought this should be reflected in the article, so I came here. I can see adding another graf or two based on this.

The German Wikipedia article on Stieve is also longer and appears to have more info, especially in the "Tätigkeit in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus" (Activity under Nazis) section, such as his one refusal to accept a body (one of the perpetrators of the 20 July plot) and his apparent justification for his actions: "I myself have all the bodies that were transferred to the anatomy at the time of the Nazi reign of terror dissected, and have tried it, the collected findings for my scientific work and thus to benefit the to exploit humanity" (Google's translation of the quoted sentence at the beginning of the last graf). However, it's unsourced there (I'm surprised; the dewiki editors are generally fastidious about this (as you would stereotypically expect), even more than we are). Also, of the two sources on which that section mostly relies, the Bartsch piece is a dead link and the Schagen one is only available to readers with accounts at Humboldt's Institute for Historical Research.

There's also more under "Leben" about his earlier life that we could have, and sources that seem at least facially valid.

I'll see what I can do. Daniel Case (talk) 23:11, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Adding stories of victims an excellent idea

Adding the back-stories of the Nazi victims whose deaths Stieve exploited was an excellent idea. Adding their photographs emphasizes their humanity and heroism and contrasts this with Stieve's dehumanization of them as merely convenient outputs of the Nazi death machine. Kudos to those responsible for those edits, -- The Anome (talk) 14:10, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome, and thanks for the barnstar as well. And nice timing it is ... today is, as our featured article reflects, the 75th anniversary of Kristallnacht.

I started doing this after I read the Slate article, looked at what we had here, and realized it needed to be expanded. I actually thought along the same lines as you ... since some of the bodies he dissected were notable people, they should be mentioned. And since that gave me room in the text, I should put in the pictures as well. Mildred Fish's story I hadn't known about ... it should be made into a movie someday. Daniel Case (talk) 17:55, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Father

The current text names a "Robert Sieve" as his father. Is this really verified? I suspect it's been mixed up with his son Robert. Also, there was a history professor in München called Felix Stieve (1845–1898), more plausible to be the correct father although I cannot verify this. /Urbourbo (talk) 14:34, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

That part is more or less a translation from the German article. The source cited there is a book in that language by Ernst Klee, Auschwitz, die NS-Medizin und ihre Opfer, which cannot be previewed on Google Books so I can't verify it. Daniel Case (talk) 05:23, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Now, a user on German Wikipedia found a source confirming Felix as the father. I'll edit here. Apparently already changed here. /Urbourbo (talk) 09:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I formatted the source properly, and decided to include some of the obit's defense of the "accusations" against Stieve as well. I will also have to remove the links to the svwiki articles since we can't use them as sources (using their sources, however, is different). The Bavarian Academy's obit confirms Felix as his father; however, I can't find any mention of Friedrich in it. Am I missing something? Do we have another source we could use? Daniel Case (talk) 03:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Hermann Stieve. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:

• Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/2013/11/nazi_anatomy_history_the_origins_of_conservatives_anti_abortion_claims_that.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 06:38, 29 March 2016 (UTC)