Talk:Hindi/Archive 3

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Does Hindi uses 'ळ' ?

Calling all Hindi experts.I want help if character 'ळ' is used in Hindi?If not then how id this used in *http://archive.eci.gov.in/HindiMay2006/pollupd/ac/states/s11/Acnstcand134.htm (search for ळ there)

Is the above usage a mere exception or just a typo?


Also advice me if the script written on the board(see the link given below) is Hindi or no?I need ur help.

Thanks, mahawiki 10:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

No, that is not Hindi. The correct hindi letter is ल -- Lost(talk) 10:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Mahawiki, I don't have Indic fonts installed, so I don't know for sure what letter you're talking about. If I'm not much mistaken, I think you're talking about the letter /La/ (looks sort of like a sideways 8 with a line sticking out from the top). That letter exists only in Marathi. It occurs in your second link, which is in Marathi (as you might know). Hope this helps! --Kuaichik 00:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for this late note, but now that I can see the Indic fonts, I looked at the first link. There, 'ळ' is used only to transcribe the Malayalam character for /La/ in two addresses in Thiruvananthapuram :) --Kuaichik 19:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I need help.

Does Hindi use ळ?There is lots of speculation going on at belgaum:Talk.Plz give ur suggestion at Belgaum talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Belgaum#.22.E0.A4.B3.22_in_Hindi.3F (Look for the subtopic "ळ in Hindi?" mahawiki 15:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

No, Hindi doesn't. I know that it's used in Marathi and Gujarati. Tuncrypt 15:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Edits by Sarvagnya

Sarvagnya, after vandalising articles on Jana Gana Mana, Vande Mataram etc. now you are ready for the main Hindi page itself. I have reverted all your changes. Please provide citations/ sources for whatever your added. I have already provided mine, but for the interest of others, it is The Union: Official Language. Now please do not add crap here.
I request others to please closely follow the edits on this page given the history of Sarvagnya's edits --APandey 18:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Belgaum is also on his hitlist.Few 'other vandalists' have also vandalised Marathi.mahawiki 04:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Correct Official Status and Difference from Other Official (Regional) Languages

Several times and on several wikipedia pages (e.g. Talk:Jana Gana Mana, Talk:Vande Mataram), the official status of Hindi has been questioned. For understanding the correct status, I have read the relevant sections of the Constitution of India and I am providing the links here for those who are interested.

Article 343(1) of the constitution states that Hindi in Devnagari script shall be the Official Language of the Union. Please see that no other language has been specified here as equivalent to Hindi. The same article when read in Hindi, translates "Official Language of the Union" to Rajbhahsa (see the pdf below). So Hindi is NOT the Rashtra-Bhasha (National Language) because no such term is coined in the Constitution of India, but it is indeed the Rajbhasha (Language of the Union).

The use of English for official purposes was allowed (first for 15 years and then through an amendment to be continued later also).

Most importantly, Article 345 (and the related articles 346 and 347) states that, The legislature of a State may by law adopt any one or more of the languages in use in the State or Hindi as the Language or Languages to be used for all or any of the official purposes of that State. So languages other than Hindi may be chosen as the official language of a state (under this provision) but that does not bring them to the same level as THE official language of the Union.

The 8th Schedule, provides a list of 22 identified languages (including Hindi) which are referred in Article 344(1) and 351.

Following are the sources (Government of India sites and others for the above claims):

PDF to read Articles 343-351

PDF (in Hindi and English) to confirm the claims on Rajbhasha

PDF containing the eighth schedule

Another Govt of India site to read the same stuff as above

Based on this, I am going to make some changes in this article and some others too. Please do not revert or provide a solid reasoning for your changes.

Just to mention that my aim is not to prove that other languages are less important or Hindi is the best or anything, but on the pages I have mentioned before, people had objections in allowing Hindi on symbols of national importance claiming that Hindi is just like any of the other 21 languages. That is the reason I had to do this research. --APandey 15:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, the changes are done now. Some other modifications that I made are these:

Removed the line where it says that English has also become the official language. English is used for official purpose but it has not given any such status along with Hindi. If this is wrong, provide citations to the contrary.

Removed the BIMARU word. It has no significance in an article about Hindi.

Higher learning, specially Arts is widely available in Hindi (and possibly in other languages too) in various universities so modified this section a little.

Had to remove the link to www.ishipress.com because wikipedia was saying its in the blocked list. Please add if you know how to unblock it. --APandey 16:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Venu62 and Bharatveer: I have added significant citations here to support the claims on Rashtrabhasha, Rajbhasha etc. Please do not modify anything without discussing it here. Dear Bharatveer, I have read the constitution of India (and provided link here for you guys also) and there is no notion of Rashtra Bhasha, rather Hindi is the Raj Bhasha of India. I have modified the statement a little bit so that it should be OK to both of you. If not discuss here before making changes. Thanks. --APandey 07:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the weasel words "Some people believe..." etc. Who believes? Can I also say that "some people believe that English is the national language?" or that "Some people especially living in South India believe that Hindi is only one of the 22 official languages of the Union? - Parthi 09:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The Eighth Schedule has nothing to do with the language to be used in communications between the Union and the States. Article 346 makes it clear that that will be either Hindi or English, and the Official Language Rules[1] explain when each of these is to be used. The only places in the Constitution which reference the Eighth Schedule are Article 344(1) - which talks about the OL Commission - Article 351 - which talks about the development of Hindi. I've amended the text to remove the reference to centre-state communication. In my opinion, the entire free-standing text above the "Official status" section can go, as it doesn't add anything of value to the article. The first sentence of the "Official status" section explains the situation quite well. -- Arvind 10:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

GA failed

As a non-specialist in Hindi and Indian-related article, I found this article lacks of informative components to give me good understanding about Hindi. This article failed GA criteria, as follows:

  1. Well-written? - passes, but small suggestions:
    • For the prose, I think I can follow the story without too much problems. Not too much specific rare terms, although I'd to look 1-2 words in a dictionary.
    • Lead section is not informatively summarizing the whole article. I think the last paragraph of comparison between Hindi and Urdu is too much presented and preferably replaced by a bit summary of Hindi's history and its status.
  2. Factually accurate and verifiable? - need some improvements
    • I found this article lacking of inline citations. There are some places that require inline citations. For example, in the Area subsection, where it is stated: "Hindi is the predominant language...". How can this be verified?
    • There are also some external links embedded in the article. Please follow the guideline of embedded citations, otherwise put the links in the External Links section.
    • I suggest not to mix between different citation styles, as it often confuses whether it is a citing or just a link to external source. I spotted all three citation styles are used in this article and they are not used consistently. For example, an embedded link is given as a footnote style.
  3. NPOV? - spotted one POV sentence
    • "Since the elite can use English, Hindi has been particularly weak on the Internet." I thas a strong Hindi's view and it is even unsourced.
  4. Broad in its coverage? - need reduction
    • I think this article is too long and need to be splitted.
    • I found some high portion is given to the Hindi region, which I think should be given as a summary.
    • This article should focus on linguistic, rather than regional position of spoken Hindi.
    • Comparison between Hindu and Urdu should also be trimmed and just point to another article about it.
  5. Stable? - some edit wars happening in the history
  6. Images? - need map
    • When I read this article, as I'm not a specialist in India, I'm confused as where the hell are these regions and languages?, especially when I was reading the lead section, demographics, history and Hindi region.
    • Could somebody make a map of India and denote where Hindi is used and spoken and also other languages, described in this article?

When all those matters above are fixed, this article can be renonimated again. Cheers — Indon (reply) — 12:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC) This needs to be still more informative for a non Hindi guy.--Johnhardcastle 11:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Rekhta and Urdu

The section on Variants suggests that there is a form of Hindi-Urdu called "Rekhta" which is distinct from Hindi, Dakkhni, and Urdu. Apart from the Ethnologue, which does get things wrong, can someone point me to any source which uses Rekhta to refer to any form of Urdu or Hindi currently in use? As far as I am aware, it is an old name for Urdu that was in use from the late 17th century till the closing decades of the 18th century, when it was largely supplanted by the name "Urdu" (although it continued to be used sporadically until the late 19th century). I have only ever seen it used thus in the academic literature (I have one of Shamsur Rahman Faruqi's works before me which bears this out), and every 18th or 19th century source I've read uses Rekhta to refer to what we will today call Urdu. So - could someone please cite a source other than the Ethnologue which bears out the claim that Rekhta and Urdu refer to two different things? If not, the reference to "Rekhta" should either be removed altogether, or replaced with something along the lines of "Rekhta, an early form of Urdu which was used in poetry in the Mughal court." -- Arvind 18:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

My Hindi teacher in the U.K., and my Persian/Urdu teacher in Delhi both told me that in the 18th and early 19th centuries "Rekhta", "Hindavi" and "Urdu" were all synonyms for what we now know as Urdu, or what the British called Hindustani i.e. a North Indian literary language based on the Khariboli dialect of Delhi with numerous borrowings from Persian and Arabic, so I think you're right. Sikandarji 21:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
It might help to see the article on Rekhta. I found a few sources that uses Rekhta to refer to any form of Urdu or Hindi currently in use: Major Indian Languages, UCLA Language Materials Project: Urdu, and Languages in Jammu & Kashmir. I hope this helps. I will add to the Rekhta article that the term was used to refer to the Urdu language in general. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 04:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC).
That is interesting - thank you for digging out those sources. -- Arvind 11:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Phonology

The charts which present the phonology of the consonants are at present inconsistent, in that the same consonant is in a few instances described differently in the first chart and in the following two charts. These are the specific issues:

  • न is described in the first chart as being an alveolar nasal, and in the second as being an apico-dental nasal.
  • व is described in the first chart as being a labio-dental approximant and in the third chart as a velar or glottal approximant.
  • र is described as being am alveolar trill in the first chart and a retroflex approximant in the third chart. A note explains that it was a retroflex approximant in Sanskrit, but surely the third chart should reflect Hindi phonology rather than Sanskrit.
  • ष is missing in the first chart. The note says that it is not used in modern Hindi pronunciation. Is this so even in formal speech? I was taught to pronounce the two aspirated sibilants differently, but Hindi's not my mother tongue and my maintaining the difference is probably because of its importance in Sanskrit.

Could someone please address these issues? I think it's important that the two tables be consistent. -- Arvind 15:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

व is labiodental, र is alveolar, I could well imagine that some people still pronounce ष differently, that is, retroflex.

Another inconsistancy I have noticed is that the र is listed as the alveolar approximant ɹ, when I was under the impression that it was an alveolar (or dental?) flap. Later on, it is listed as being alveolar/dental trill. Which is it supposed to be? Is one dialectal? Some clarification would be most welcome.

Pronunciation of ऐ

In the article, the IPA equivalent of ऐ is given as /æː/ and its "approximiate equivalent in British English" is given as "like a in cat". (Presumably "British English" means Received Pronunciation/RP.) If I look up /æː/ under near-open front unrounded vowel I also get an example of "fat" in RP.

Now I'm a native speaker of British English who's learning Hindi. I claim no expertise in Hindi: however, I have never heard any native Hindi speaker pronounce ऐ anything like the way the "a" is pronounced in "cat" or "fat" in received pronunciation (or indeed any other British or American way of pronouncing English with which I am familiar).

I've heard ऐ pronounced in various ways, varying from "e" as in "hen" (this is the example given in one of my Hindi textbooks) to a diphthong like the "ai" as in "main" in RP.

I have heard native Hindi-speakers pronounce English words "fat" or "cat" with a sound like a ऐ. (I would transcribe this pronounciation as "fet" or "ket" in RP). Perhaps this is the source of the confusion.

This is really a cry for help since I'm having a lot of trouble learning this vowel. Can someone who is very familiar with both Hindi and English (as pronounced in Britain or the US) help?

Thanks! Grover cleveland 02:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right, Grover cleveland. The vowel ऐ should be properly transcribed /ɛː/ in IPA according to the majority of sources on Hindi phonology, including the entry for Hindi in the Journal of the IPA (where the vowel chart was copied from). This is basically the sound in RP "hen" /hɛn/ and "head" /hɛd/, although pronounced with longer duration than the RP version. This added length makes the ऐ sound somewhat like /ɛɪ/ to non-Hindi speakers, which is close to RP /eɪ/ (as in "hay" /heɪ/ and "hate" /heɪt/), and even closer to the same vowel in some (non-RP/GA) English dialects and in Dutch as well ("mijn" /mɛɪn/). Still, this vowel ऐ is used to transcribe foreign words with /æ/ (like "cat" /kæt/, etc.), even though the native Hindi pronunciation is made with a higher tongue position /ɛː/. Confusingly enough, actual English words with /ɛ/ (like "head" /hɛd/) tend to be transcribed with ए /eː/ in Hindi (along with English /eɪ/ words like "hate" /heɪt/!) - all of this basically helps put together the so-called Indian accent.
You can practice this sound by making the sound in the English word "head" /hɛd/ and then just practice lengthening the duration of the vowel. If you can drop the "d" in "head" after lengthening the vowel, you already have a real Hindi word, है /hɛː/! Hope this helps. --SameerKhan 05:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Great -- that makes a lot of sense. If as you say the entry in the Journal of the IPA has /ɛː/ then surely this should go in the vowel chart in the main article instead of /æː/. Does anyone know why this got changed in the first place? Grover cleveland 08:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I've made the change in the article Grover cleveland 14:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


I'm now confused by the vowel chart image. It clearly shows an /æː/, but there's no account given of any Hindi letter that is pronounced that way in the main text. Possible what's going on is that the pronunciation of ऐ varies between [ɛː] and [æː] (note phonetic, not phonemic brackets!), but if that's the case, then surely the chart (which is supposed to be of phonemes) shouldn't show both. It would be good if somebody could go back to the JIPA, and look at the original chart, to see if it's possible to figure out what the people who made it were thinking.ACW 20:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I do have the Hindi entry in the Handbook of the IPA, and it says that the pronunciation of ऐ is only [æː] in English loanwords, and it remains [ɛː] in native words. I'll make the change. --SameerKhan 01:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the pronunciation of that vowel varies according to dialect and region. Both pronunciations are correct. HeBhagawan 02:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Since I believe that pronounciation chart has errors which may be related to topic being discussed in this talk page, I am writing this. In children's books (used to teach children beginning to learn Hindi) example word used for ए is "eravat" which means "elephant". And for ऐ "ainak" is used which means "glasses" or "spectacles". At http://www.shabdkosh.com/en2hi/glasses I found how "ainak" is written. I hope cut and paste from that site is readable on your PC. I am pasting that word as written in Devnagari from that site: ऐनक . I believe that the pronunciation of both ए and ऐ as given in wikipedia page for Hindi are incorrect. On my PC I am not able to view some text correctly. For example, in the text signed by ACW posted at 20:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC) the text "pronunciation of ऐ varies between [ɛː] and [æː]" shows the word following "between" with a square. With this problem and my unfamiliarity with IPA I will not try to refer to notation used in IPA. However, above reference to two words from children's books each illustarting use of ए and ऐ should help because audio samples of these words' pronunciation can be easily found. Old Hindi movies constitute good source of audio samples illustrating pronunciation of different vowels and consonants. For ऐ there are many utterance samples available in Hindi movies. ऐ is popular prefix of Hindi word "dil". "ऐ dil" means "O Heart". In Hindi movie "C.I.D." Mohammad Rafi playback sings for Johnny Walker on screen in a song which starts with these words. In informal transliteration system which Hindi movies use in writing credits popular rendering of ऐ is "ai". And "ai dil" used as search words with quotes produces more than a thousand links. Most of these are for Hindi movie songs which feature this phrase: "ऐ dil".

Pronunciation of ए is easy to find because word "eka" (एक) stands for "one". This also is a popular word to use in first instructions in Hindi for children beginning to learn Hindi. HTH. --Einsteinwallah 00:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Sorry, I'm a bit confused. What exactly (if anything) do you find wrong with the article? Are you proposing that we should use these audio samples instead of IPA, or what? In other words: could you please clarify? Shukriyaa and thank you. --Kuaichik 05:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Notable Hindi works

Picking some works of literature as "notable" and ignoring others is personal opinion and NOT OK by WP rules. I removed the section of "Notable Hindi works," as there is a main article on Hindi literature and a whole section on ditto just above the section I deleted. Zora 07:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

"Social Status" Section Needs Rewrite

The subsection "Social status" needs to be revised for clarity. The paragraph in question is

Since the elite can use English, Hindi has been particularly weak on the Internet. As a barometer, the Devanagari fonts and keyboards used on computers today were not standardized within India - earlier government standards such as the 8-bit ISCII (Indian Script Code for Information Interchange) or the GIST keyboard were never widely adopted. The present system was finally standardized only during Unicode deliberations. Indeed, Hindi unicode standards were finalised based on inputs from scholars hailing from Fiji and other countries. It is only when Unicode became the dominant standard that a number of changes were sought by the Indian government.

What does "Hindi unicode standards" refer to? Unicode does writing systems, not languages. Did the author of this paragraph mean to refer to Devanagari?

Sarayuparin 02:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Writing System" Section Revision

Is it necessary to have the table of hypothetical conjuncts in the "Writing System" section? It belongs -- and in fact does -- more appropriately in the Devanagari article. Sarayuparin 02:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. --SameerKhan 18:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll make the change. Sarayuparin 20:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

We need to agree on the phrasing of the very brief content in the "Etymology" section. I originally added the section and the following content:

The name "Hindi" is derived from the Persian word hindi, which referred to the language spoken in region of hind comprising modern India and Pakistan.

Tuncrypt changed the content to

Of Persian origin, the word Hindī (ہندی) is comprised of Hind, meaning India, and ī, meaning of. Hence Hindi translates as Indian.

I objected to Tuncrypt's revision for two reasons. (1) If we are going to specify the morphology of the term "Hindi", it should be done accurately and completely. (2) The phrase Hindi translates as Indian" is misleading. "Hindi" does not 'translate' simply as "Indian". If we're going to split hairs, then the Persian term "Hind" and its adjectival derivative "Hindi" refer specifically to the region around the Indus River.

Any comments?

Sarayuparin 05:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern Sarayuparin. I think it would be great if you provided the complete morphology of the word Hindi. I can see why you find the translation of Hindi to Indian misleading. However, the Persian term Hind (हिन्द ہندی) not only refers to the region around the Indus River but to all of the area the Mughals conquered (it originally did refer to the region around the Sindhu). It is actually a shortened form of Hindustan. In fact, the Iranians still refer to India as Hind and we still use Jai Hindi to mean Hail India (the whole country). The term is contentious because many would associate Hindustan or Hind with North India and the North Indian culture. In light of these facts, we could insert North in front of Indian if necessary. Please let me know what you think. Thanks, AnupamTalk 22:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

translators needed at Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation

Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation--D-Boy 19:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Real Relative Pronouns?

I agree that kab and jab both translate to "when" in English, as the article describes. However, is there really a word jahaaN? (I know there's jahaan which means "world" but I'm not so sure about jahaaN.)

There's no relative pronoun "where" in English; it's an interrogative pronoun, just like "when" in the sentence "I don't know when he'll come back."

In Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani, as I understand, this construction is expressed by "kee" + the interrogative pronoun. So the above sentence, for instance, would be (I think): Mujhe maaluum naheeN (hai) kee kab vaapas aayegaa (or maiN jaanthaa naheeN (hooN) kee...). But you could use jab if you were saying something like "When he does come back, I'll give him a good thrashing!"

Also, shouldn't "jitna" be translated as "as much (as)" ? --Kuaichik 18:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry, a mistake of mine concerning English grammar!! There is a relative pronoun "where" in English, in sentences like "I'll go where he goes." However, I think this is expressed by a different construction in Hindustani (something like "Where does he go? I'll also go."). --Kuaichik 19:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Oops again! I found out that jahaaN actually does mean what this page says it means!! But what about jitnaa? Shouldn't that be "as much (as)"? --Kuaichik 19:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

VANDALISM!

I believe there is more than 2 native speakers and 3 total speakers of Hindi. This only appears if you use certain links, so I don't know how to fix it. - Bigbandfan

I believe the number you're referring to is a ranking, rather than a total number of speakers. ConDemTalk 02:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Question

I found a Donald Duck comic book story, in which Donald is hypnotized by some Indian fakir. Could anyone please tell what Donald says in this picture: [2] --Lalli 16:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a mishmash of devanagari and gurmukhī characters to me. I don't know gurmukhi, so I can't say whether transliterating the symbols would make an intelliglbe word or not. Probably it's nonsense to go with the hypnotizing theme. - Taxman Talk 18:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. --Lalli 12:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction?

In the first note in phonology it says "The short open-mid front unrounded vowel (/ɛ/: as e in get), does not have any symbol or diacritic in Hindi script." Yet right above it, ऐ represents /ɛ/. lol. Tuncrypt 18:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think I was sort of wrong about this, in some way Tuncrypt 20:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Location of hindi2.png

In order to maintain consistency with other articles such as Japanese Language and Arabic, shouldn't the image of the word "Hindi" written in Devanagari script be moved to the infobox? It looks like that change was done, but reverted by another user. Optical333S 01:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Advice on how to put in Hindi characters

I am continuously trying to work with hindi related articles, but I dont really know for sure as to how can I key the hindi letters in from my English/German keyboard. Do I have to install a font or something ? And, does it matter which browser do I use ?

Raghav 07:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Redundant Phrase (Which Is Uncited Anyway)?

Come to think of it, isn't the bolded part of this uncited sentence a bit redundant? "It is understood and/or spoken throughout the Indian subcontinent, from Afghanistan, the borders of Iran, to the borders of Burma, and in the south, it is understood in Sri Lanka."

As I understand it, Sri Lanka is part of the Indian Subcontinent, so what's the point of saying Khariboli is understood in Sri Lanka AND throughout the Indian Subcontinent? Unless of course the intended meaning is that it is ONLY understood in Sri Lanka (not in South India), which would then make this sentence self-contradictory. (How can it be "understood and/or spoken throughout the Indian subcontinent" if the only part of the South where it is understood is Sri Lanka?) --Kuaichik 21:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Intonation silliness

"The intonation of speaking is very important in Hindi (although Hindi is not a tonal language like Chinese) to express the sentiments of respect, politeness, question, etc."

Can someone tell me what language doesn't use intonation at all to express respect, politeness, questions, etc? I think essentially none.66.171.76.138 15:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Excellent point, I think. I support the idea of removing this sentence, but I'll wait a little and see if anyone else wants to keep it for some reason.
The first reason that jumps to mind is that some non-native speaker pronounced a sentence like kyaa aap khaayenge (are you eating?) with awkward intonation (e.g. undue stress on complementizer "kyaa"), suggesting that the intended meaning may have been e.g. aap kyaa khaayenge (what are you eating). But for that matter, it would be just as awkward in English if you stressed the complementizer "that," and even weirder to stress "que" in French. --Kuaichik 15:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Where Hindi is Spoken

Is it incorrect to say Hindi is spoken in Pakistan and Nepal as well as India? The Hindi spoken in India is essentially the same as the Urdu spoken in Pakistan. Also, as the article mentions, Hindi is widely spoken in Nepal as well. --Kuaichik 15:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Hindi Image

So, if the image should be deleted from this article, what about Hindustani language? Shouldn't the image there be deleted, too, by the same logic? --Kuaichik 17:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Schwa

The article states that English speakers pronounce final "a" as [a] instead of schwa. For instance, it asserts that the "English" pronunciation of Kama Sutra is "/kɑːma suːtɹaː/". This isn't correct - very few English speakers would pronounce anything other than a schwa at the end of each of these words. And I think the same is true of the other words in the list. -86.146.46.45 22:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I'll make some changes at once, since no one seems to read the talk page anymore. --Kuaichik 23:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
There, I've done this and this. Better now? --Kuaichik 23:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes - thank you.-19:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Classification

we need to be clear, for the purposes of the infobox, do we mean

  • "Hindi" as defined by Ethnologue (Central zone, Western Hindi; 180 M speakers)
  • "Hindi" as defined by the 1991 census (includes Central, Western and Northern zone dialects, 337 M speakers)

The 2001 census was probably the last one to work with that inclusive definition of "Hindi", and with the recognition of Bihari as independent languages, the percentage of "Hindi speakers" in India will fall from 40% to about 25%.

Since "Hindi" according to SIL is really just Khariboli, I suppose this should be about the wider definition. But we have to be very clear about the issues involved. "Hindi" (and "Hindustani") in this sense is not a Central zone language, but a macrolanguage composed of disparate dialects, selected for political, not linguistic reasons. dab (�) 12:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good question to me. But please note that no one seems to be looking at the talk page of this article except me (and maybe others posting a question). I wish I could say something knowledgeable about this.
I also am tempted to think this is about the macrolanguage ("Hindi" as defined by the 1991 census). But in that case, I think (like you?) that we would have to account for the many varieties of Hindustani/Hindi, their similarities and their differences (Chhattisgarhi vs. Bihari vs. Khariboli vs. Braj Bhasha...vs. Rajasthani dialects? etc.). But I currently have very little idea about the variety between these dialects, since I'm not a native-speaker of Hindi, have not looked thoroughly at Grierson's resources, and have never been north of Chennai! :( --Kuaichik 04:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

this is a bit like German language vs. Standard German or Arabic language vs. Literary Arabic. Viz., information on the grammar etc. of the standard dialect should go to Khariboli while at this article, we should sketch the nature of Hindi as a pluricentric or macrolanguage. dab (�) 14:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Not a bit but exactly like Arabic, which is said to be "spoken" in such a huge region but whose dialects change so dramatically. While discussing Hindi grammar, stick to standard Hindustani grammar and everything which has been accepted as the social standard. Instead there is a separate article called Hindi languages where you can discuss the differences you are talking about. Maquahuitl 01:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Good bye

Alvida for good bye Are you sure that alvida is not a urdu word. I think that namste is used to say good bye Yourdeadin 11:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)Yourdeadin

Do you think that Kabhi Alvida Na Kehna is an "Urdu" movie? Or do you just think alvida strictly means "farewell"? I'll admit that I myself am not familiar with that word; I am not a native-speaker of Hindustani, but to me it seems that the word for "goodbye" used most often by Hindustani-speaking Muslims is xudaa haafiz (from Persian/Farsi). (I say "Hindustani" as I personally believe the line between spoken Hindi and spoken Urdu is, at best, very blurred. I also think you could consider that expression to be either Hindi or Urdu, depending on how you define those language names.) --Kuaichik 23:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I have added Khudá Hafiz (ख़ुदा हाफ़िज़) to the list of phrases for goodbye. With regards, AnupamTalk 00:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Are, shukria, John Sahib! It's really nice to see someone else look at the talk page for once. Personally, I think this article has gone from not even "good (GA)" to worse.
Anyway, having looked again at the list of common phrases, I noticed something else: the explanation for tu. It says that tu is "used intimately." But I think perhaps it might be more accurate to say that tu is used (almost?) exclusively in (songs and) poetry. I mean, you wouldn't really use that word in spoken/conversational Hindustani (or Hindi/Urdu), would you? I could be entirely wrong, of course, but I'm just asking. --Kuaichik 02:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Koi baat nahi hai! Yes, lately I've noticed that a lot of the article has been vandalized and important content has been supplanted with opinion. Three WikiProjects have given the article a "B" class rating. Tu (तू تو) is similar to the Thou tense in English. It is used in poetry, songs, religious texts (see this), and with lovers. However, it can also be derogatory when used in a certain manner (see here). But yes, it is not used ordinarily when talking to someone else. In most cases Tum (तुम تم) is used when talking informally or Aap (आप آپ) when talking formally (or when speaking with elders). Regarding the article, do you think it would be appropriate to include colloquial Hindustani words like shukria (शुक्रीया) along with standard Hindi words like Dhanyavád (धन्यवाद) even though they might not be standard Hindi? I look forward to hearing from you soon. With regards, AnupamTalk 03:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Mere xayaal se: Haa'n, bilkul! If ख़ुदा हाफ़िज counts as Hindi, why not शुक्रीया, which (I find) is used by both Hindus and Muslims? I highly doubt that most "Hindi"-speakers realize that that word is a cognate of the Arabic shukran.

However, I would also advise against putting up too many expressions in that little box; it might overwhelm those who speak no Hindustani at all. Anyhow, that's what I think. By the way, is "John" your last name? If so, we have the same surname! LOL! --Kuaichik 06:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind reply! I will go ahead and add shukria to the list and will refrain from cluttering the table ;). With regards, AnupamTalk 06:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
शुक्रीया/شکریہ :-D --Kuaichik 04:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Bangladesh?!

OK, I know I said Hindi is spoken in Pakistan and Nepal. I have no objection if it is an official language of Fiji. But Bangladesh?? No need to go overboard here! If you're going to include Bangladesh, you might as well include Guyana, Suriname, Mauritius, the US... --Kuaichik 01:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Similarly, why is the language code for Nepali included here as a code for a dialect of Hindi?! As far as I know, at least, Nepali is officially considered a separate language from Hindi - by the governments of India AND Nepal. --Kuaichik 22:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Now Trinidad & Tobago and Guyana, too! Like I said: No need to go overboard!! --Kuaichik 01:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

you are right, Nepali is listed by mistake. dab (�) 17:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, but there is still that stupid problem of all the countries. That huge list of countries has been around for too long; if anyone objects, they really should discuss it here, and no one has objected here in nearly two weeks! So I'm taking it out now. --Kuaichik 22:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Indian Scouting

Can someone please render Taiyar (Be Prepared), the Scout Motto, into Hindi? Thanks! Chris 15:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

तत्पर(tatpar), उद्यत (udvat) are two equivalents. apurv1980 13:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Need Hindi

Need Hindi script for Jal tarang. Badagnani 02:10, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Done, AnupamTalk 02:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

IPA

Can someone come up with good examples of ʈ, ɖ, ɽ in Hindi words that Brits and Yanks might be familiar with, to illustrate the examples at Help:IPA pronunciation key? Thanks. kwami 20:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I added harder and kart as the closest sounds in English words to the retroflex consonants. But I'm not a linguist, someone please check. Come to think of it, harder seems closer to ɽ to me than the example, but of course, that sound just doesn't exist in English. - Taxman Talk 00:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

HINDI IS NOT

an Indo-European language spoken all over India in varying degrees.

Actually, Hindi is spoken only in the following states - Himachal Pradesh, Haryana, Delhi, Rajasthan, Uttaranchal, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Bihar, Chhatisgarh, Jharkhand. It is a lingua franca in Arunachal Pradesh and Andaman & Nicobar Islds. People in W. India (Maharashtra + Guj) manage a little bit of Hindi. But what about the South, the N.E. and Bengal?? Hindi is not spoken in any of these states. Therefore, I doubt if the phrase all over India is suitable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.227.156.156 (talk) 14:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Need Hindi script

Surbahar needs Hindi script. Badagnani 05:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Subdivision of Hindi in ISO-639

The info box gives the erroneous suggestion that Hindi is a macro-language. It is not. GerardM 13:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Hindi can mean both- as a standard and as a group. The confusions arise due to conflict between linguistics and politics. Maquahuitl 01:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Hindi, as the official language of India, is a register of Urdu, which in turn is one of a chain of dialects, many of which are also called Hindi. What a mess, but of course you can't be honest and say that Hindi is Urdu, nor that Urdu is Hindi. kwami (talk) 00:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Removal of the phonetics section

I disagree with the removal of the phonetics section. Yes, the article is too long and parts should still be trimmed, but that section is not too long given its importance to the subject, and it is already a very concise summary. Any survey of a language should include a summary of its phonetics, given that phonetics is a primary subbranch of linguistics. Instead, other sections should be looked at for summarization to conform with WP:SS. - Taxman Talk 00:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but if you check the Hindu-Urdu phonology (main) page, you'll see how changed it is as of recent. Leave it reduced here for now; in a short time a summarized form will be put up. Tuncrypt (talk) 16:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't make any sense. If you can create an improved summary that's great, go for it. But eliminating what's there and leaving nothing is damaging the article. Standard practice would say leave what's there until you have something better to replace it with. I've explained why it should be included, and you haven't explained why it shouldn't be, and you've removed it twice. - Taxman Talk 19:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Two reasons. 1) The consonant table that's there is wrong, and 2) the vowel table was discarded because it was partly irrelevant (had to do with script) but mostly because it was redundant. So, nothing is better than a wrong thing. Tuncrypt (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Then fix the errors and leave what's good. The vowel image is still useful. In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. - Taxman Talk 20:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

On a general note, this is a really hard page to edit. Because there is already so much here, instead of creating a nice, thoroughly sourced page from the start, one has to sort through all the junk and play this a 'match-a-source' game with it instead. Tuncrypt (talk) 03:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The Devanagari transliteration for "Zabān-e-Urdū-e-Mu’allah"

I noticed that the Devanagari for "Zabān-e-Urdū-e-Mu’allah" which is "ज़बान-ऐ उर्दू" actually reads: "zabān-ai udūr" as seen under this heading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi#Hindi_and_Urdu

Should I change it to read "Zabān-e-Urdū-e-Mu’allah" or should I leave it? --Yoshiroshin 17:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

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