Talk:History of Florida State University

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Untitled[edit]

The following statement is partially in error: "Governor Claude Kirk once spent a night on Landis Green, in the center of campus, discussing politics with protesting students."

Governor Claude Kirk showed up unannounced and completely without the pomp and circumstance that usually accompanied his movements, on the east side of Landis Green at about 8 a.m. A single assistant who may have been the governor's Florida Highway Patrol trooper bodyguard (he was not in uniform nor was he visibly armed) accompanied the governor carrying a folding chair, which he unfolded... then the assistant faded into the background. Governor Kirk sat in that folding chair and talked to students non-stop till approximately 5 p.m. Governor Kirk did not move from the chair during that entire time. At mid-day a trooper brought Governor Kirk a fast food meal, a burger wrapped in paper and a drink in a cup.

How do I know this? Direct personal knowledge: I was there when Governor Kirk arrived, I stayed till he departed, and I did not leave the immediate vicinity while he was there.

I also question the propriety of referring to Landis Green as "the center of campus". It was, however, one of the open areas commonly used for student protest activities.

Richard White - B.A., F.S.U. 1969 Anhaica (talk) 10:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clarifying the data! I will change the information in the article. As I recall, I found that in maybe Stan-the-Man's book, but I really don't remember at this point. You preceded me at FSU by a few years, but a number of the original participants were still around when I enrolled.
Cheers!
Sirberus (talk)

Albert A. Murphree[edit]

I have recently completed the initial phase of a major re-write of the Albert A. Murphree article. Given that most of the available internet resources emphasize his time as president of the University of Florida (1909-1927), the article as it presently stands is admittedly light on a discussion of Murphree's accomplishments as president of West Florida Seminary/Florida State College/Florida Female College/Florida State College for Women as it evolved during the protean years of Murphree's presidency (1897-1909). I would be grateful if someone more knowledgeable about available FSU references covering these years would make a recommendation of available and reliable references. At a bare minimum, the article should include another paragraph discussing his accomplishments in Tallahassee. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:55, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Looks like a you're doing a credible job with the Murphree article. I'll be glad to help once some other work is addressed. --Sirberus (talk) 13:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, Sirberus. Murphree looks like he was nearly as important to FSU's history as he was to UF's. I would like for FSU folks to read the article and feel that it represents their history as well. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:59, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oldest university?[edit]

I recently removed a line from the article that said "As a result of this merger [of the Tallahassee Female Academy into the West Florida Seminary] Florida State University is the oldest university in Florida, with clear predecessor operations traceable to 1843, about two years before Florida became a state of the United States." There was no source making this claim, and it's a bit dubious in my opinion. First, neither the Tallahassee Female Academy nor the West Florida Seminary into which it was merged were universities. Second, Tallahassee Female Academy was absorbed by the West Florida Seminary only in 1858. I believe it's original research to claim FSU as Florida's "oldest university" simply because one of its predecessor bodies, which later merged into the main predecessor body, was operating in 1843. FSU itself traces its origins to 1851 (the date West Florida Seminary and East Florida Seminary were set up by the state) or to 1857 (when classes actually began). Obviously if we find a source making the claim we can attribute it to that, but I don't think it's a reasonable conclusion for us to be drawing from the bald facts presented here.--Cúchullain t/c 23:09, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll agree that the TFA was not a university in the sense commonly known today, nor even a college. The term could be changed to oldest institution of higher learning, which I suggest would be accurate. Classes began before 1857, however, at the school. Early 1857 is the time the school received state support. Classes were ongoing well before that date as the city supported Florida Institute located on Gallows Hill, where the Westcott building is located today. The point is that this school (today known as Florida State) has been operating nearly continuously since the 1840s. --Sirberus (talk) 23:21, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The claim would still need to be attributed to a reliable source. Otherwise it's still fundamentally original research, as it's making a claim the sources don't directly make. Wikipedia should only reflect what sources say, we shouldn't be making any novel claims ourselves.
On the 1857 date, what I should have said was "when classes actually began at West Florida Seminary". It is clear that FSU traces its own origins to the West Florida Seminary.--Cúchullain t/c 00:08, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FSU officially traces its origin as a state school to the establishment law passed in 1851, not when the school started receiving state funds. The only reason anyone would bring this date business up is to justify the date used by UFlorida, which is essentially restarting the FSU-UF rivalry edit war. I don't see the benefit in such edit warring. Beyond that, the claim is correct, the school is the oldest; especially since this article has been peer reviewed by an independent reviewer and not found particularly wanting. Having said that, the references could be improved so we'll keep that claim out until better references are available. --Sirberus (talk) 03:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What? No one is disputing the 1851 date except you, who claims it was earlier. The peer reviewer missing something is not particularly unusual. At any rate the claim is going to have to stay out until a reliable source is found for it, at which point we can attribute the claim. Until that happens, it's essentially original research and needs to stay out.--Cúchullain t/c 12:19, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Original research[edit]

Looking more closely at the sources given here, there a quite a few more problems with sourcing and original research that need to be addressed. There is a lot of good work here, and I don't doubt that with a little more this could hit the Good Article criteria. But too much of it relies on interpretations of sources that don't actually appear in the sources themselves. This is basically synthesis of sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated in them]. There are additional, more minor problems with lack of sources or relying heavily on primary sources.
The biggest problems involve the age of the school. The article portrays Florida State University as the "oldest university" in Florida, by way of the connection to the Tallahassee Female Academy. However, none of the sources that I've checked actually make this claim. I'll highlight some spots that need fixing:

  • The first sentence says baldly that FSU is "the oldest of the 11 public institutions of higher learning in Florida". Neither of the sources claim this. The first source is about the Leon Female Academy, saying it merged with the Male Academy in 1846. The second source, a book review, says only that the legislature voted to establish the East and West Florida Seminaries in 1851. (Also, there are a lot more than 11 public institutions of higher education in Florida, the Florida College System)
  • The third sentence says that "Florida State, or FSU as is the common shortened version of the name, started as a coeducational academy connected to the oldest church in Tallahassee and would later become after a contentious fight the state-owned Seminary West of the Suwanee River." Again, the source doesn't say this. What it says is that in 1856 the Florida Institute, established as an inducement for the state to put the West Florida Seminary in Tallahassee, was absorbed by the seminary. Nothing about FSU predating the seminary.

That's enough for a start. I think a lot of the problem is terminology. Sources never use the name "Florida State University" for the earlier institutions; they call them the names they had at the time. Additionally, most if not all sources, and FSU itself, trace the origin of the school to the West Florida Seminary, not to the other institutions absorbed by the seminary. Hence, it is common to see titles like "Early Education in Tallahassee and the West Florida Seminary now Florida State University"; we do not see titles like "Tallahassee Female Academy, now Florida State University". Fixing the terminology and removing the original interpretation will go a long way towards improving the article.--Cúchullain t/c 15:01, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to synthesis of information, I really dislike parroting other works and wish to provide the reader with excellent secondary sources which lead to solid verification of the claims in the text. I agree this could constitute a "synthesis", in that my referencing disparate facts would hopefully enable the reader to understand the messiness of reality by virtue of having what I hope is a more complete recitation of the events discussed at hand, as with a plentiful supply of points of color showing very precisely a work of art through pointillism. I am trying to strike a balance between what you call "synthesis", "original research" and permissible POV, as some of the best articles have a definite POV, but are still accurate. --Sirberus (talk) 14:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way - William George Dodd, PhD, Harvard, 1911, was a careful researcher working from a lot of original university materials and public materials in the creation of his multiple works. He was an excellent historian of the university, which apparently was the focus of his curiosity for years.
The first sentence is much better now, thanks. The other one I brought up isn't changed; I'll take a stab at it.
On WP:SYNTH, it's okay to cite facts that appear in reliable sources and allow readers to draw their own conclusion, but we have to be careful with it because it's very easy to start implying (or directly stating) things that don't actually appear in the sources, as has happened here. Thus it is fine to say "Florida State University traces its origins to the establishment of the West Florida Seminary" and "in 1858 the West Florida Seminary absorbed the Tallahassee Female Academy, which opened in 1844." However, it's not to draw or imply our own conclusion based on these facts. We can't say something like "Therefore, Florida State University has been operating since 1844" or "therefore, Florida State University is the oldest university in Florida", because the sources do not make these claims.--Cúchullain t/c 19:38, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is also a problem with the sections describing the school as becoming the "first university" in the state. The sources don't say back up this claim. According to this source (p. 46-47) the West Florida Seminary actually became the Literary College that was part of Florida University, later known as University of Florida. Its "separate Charter and special organization" were still maintained.[1] The university also contained a separate medical college, and the university charter recognized three more colleges. At any rate nothing really came of any of this; the state recognized the title of "University of Florida" in 1885, but provided no further funding for the enterprise. The "title of the University had never been assumed by the institution at Tallahassee under the provisions of the act of 1885...[2] and later that year the medical school moved to Jacksonville; the other three recognized colleges were never established.


I think it's inaccurate to assert that West Florida Seminary was the first university in Florida. It is more accurate to say that it was part of the first university. It is also accurate to say that the act recognizing the title was not appealed until 1903. However, we need to be more clear than we are that the title wasn't used as doing so would "misrepresent [the school's] resources and purposes."[3]--Cúchullain t/c 03:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're correct; but see my comments on the FSU talk page. The WFS buildings housed all of the 1883 Univ of Florida. --Sirberus (talk) 01:51, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That may be true, but the sources are clear that the seminary was only part of the Florida University, and kept its distinct charter and organization within it. As such we need to follow that. Of course none of it amounted to much, as the state didn't provide adequate support, but we need to get it down right.--Cúchullain t/c 03:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Was the Leon Academy a "state" institution?[edit]

While Florida was a territory at the time, the Florida Territorial Legislature paid support and passed laws relating specifically to the Leon Academy. Can we consider the Leon Academy a state school? --Sirberus (talk) 23:25, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If Florida wasn't a state, this clearly wasn't a "state school", but rather a school funded by the territorial governement, or whatever. How do the sources refer to it?--Cúchullain t/c 12:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The sources show repeated contact by school fathers with the Territorial Legislature for support and authority. Were Florida a state and not a territory, I'd suggest it was a "state" school. A compression of history, I suppose. Sirberus (talk) 12:23, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request[edit]

"White males who had previously attended Florida State College were subsequently required to attend the university in Gainesville, and took with them the fraternity system and the football team."

This unsupported and unsourced statement is one of the several urban myths surrounding the origins of the present University of Florida and Florida State University, and is inaccurate in several material respects:

1. First, following the Buckman Act reorganization, there were very few transfers of male students from the former Florida State College in Tallahassee to the new University of the State of Florida (in Lake City in 1905–06, and Gainesville since August 1906). The total enrollment of the new University of the State of Florida in August 1905 was just over 100 students, and fewer than half of those students had previously attended the old Florida Agricultural College or East Florida Seminary. I can find no record of any student who previously attended the old Florida State College, but that is not the same as definitively saying that none did. What is clear, however, is that there was no en masse transfer from the old Florida State College to the new University of the State of Florida.

2. Second, there was no transfer of academic programs and faculty from the old Florida State College to the new University of the State of Florida; all faculty were newly hired by president Andrew Sledd, or re-hired from the pre-existing faculty of the University of Florida at Lake City (a.k.a. Florida Agricultural College).

3. Third, there was no transfer of the fraternity system, Greek letter traditions, or individual fraternity chapters from the old Florida State College to the new University of the State of Florida. Florida Agricultural College (a.k.a. the University of Florida from 1903 to 1905) had its own Greek-letter traditions, and the oldest fraternity chapters of the present University of Florida (Alpha Tau Omega, Pi Kappa Alpha, Sigma Alpha Epsilon) were actually founded on the Lake City campus of the Florida Agricultural College in 1884–85.

4. Fourth, there was no transfer of the football team or the athletic program from the old Florida State College to the new University of the State of Florida. The new men's university fielded its first official varsity football team in 1906. Only one of the 1906 players had previously played for the old Florida Agricultural College team; none had played for the last Florida State College team in 1904. Coincidentally, the new university did hire the old Florida State College's last football coach from 1904 to be its first coach of the new team in 1906. The new university's athletic colors were drawn from the traditions of Florida Agricultural College (blue and white) and the East Florida Seminary (orange and black). The Gators sports nickname was not chosen until 1911.

I propose to remove the inaccurate and unsourced passage quoted above, but I will leave this talk page discussion open for at least 30 days before doing so in order to give other concerned editors the opportunity to respond, voice their opinions, and provide any available sources. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:52, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and removed the line. There is a source for that paragraph, but I don't have access to it, and if it does indeed verify this particular material it's a clear error.--Cúchullain t/c 13:31, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cuchullain, and there is more of the same in this passage from the "Student life" section of the main Florida State University article: "When FSC became the Florida State College for Women in 1905, the football team and fraternity system was forced to attend the now all male school in Gainesville, thus marking the beginning of the football program at the University of Florida." Please also note that Florida State College became the "Florida Female College" in 1905, and its name was changed to Florida State College for Women in 1909. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:05, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dirtlawyer1 - I have a source - a collection at the FSU Libraries - and it conflicts with your fraternity date references. It says: When in January 1903, the Alpha Psi chapter of Kappa Alpha fraternity was installed at Florida State College, it was the first Greek letter fraternity formally established at any college or university in the state of Florida. That is quite interesting as it excludes any formal establishment of other fraternities at FAC. Perhaps those organizations were not formally established? Here's the link: http://guides.lib.fsu.edu/content.php?pid=359827&sid=2942597 As a result, The reference and citation should be restored to the FSU articles - appropriately reworded to make them more accurate with proper references. The aggregation website the the FSU Library is probably good enough for now, as the other sources will require a visit and manual examination. I will travel to the FSU Libraries in Tallahassee over time and perform further research. But I think we can agree this is a non-trivial reference from an academic source. If you, Dirtlawyer1, can provide an equally authoritative reference for your sources (let's assume the fraternity references were installed by a web guy, and thus may be considered less authoritative) then we have an interesting conflict. Otherwise, we have a dispassionate academic source conflicting with non-academic sources of perhaps dubious quality. Thoughts? Sirberus (talk) 01:38, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sirberus, I don't doubt that a Kappa Alpha Order (KA) chapter was founded at FSC in 1903; it was apparently the first KA chapter in the state of Florida (see List of Kappa Alpha Order chapters). But we have multiple sources that state a Sigma Alpha Epsilon (SAE) chapter (see List of Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapters) and Alpha Tau Omega (ATO) chapter (see List of Alpha Tau Omega chapters) were founded at Florida Agricultural College in 1884, including the linked Wikipedia lists of fraternity chapters. The ATO chapter list is partially sourced to an 1897 publication of the ATO national fraternity. The claim of the 1903 KA chapter being the first fraternity in the state is clearly wrong. Keep in mind that there were also two private Florida colleges, Stetson and Rollins, founded in 1883 and 1885, respectively. Both also had Greek systems, although I have not yet been able to find the dates for the first chapters on those campuses. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:45, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dirtlawyer1, we may have an interesting conflict. You might want to see if the chapters at FAC were formally installed. Please post your sources if possible. Regardless, I will add the new information based on the new source into the FSU articles as I have opportunity. I am curious that this FSU source excludes the possibility of a FAC (or any other college or university) Greek-letter fraternity before 1903. I have a number of copies of unpublished papers from William G. Dodd, PhD (Harvard, 1911) who may have addressed this issue. He wrote extensively about the history of FSU. Personally, in researching the history of FSI I researched a bit into the history of FAC. I saw no evidence of Greek-letter fraternities in the period graphics. Indeed, many or most FAC students appeared to wear military-style uniforms. If you compare these graphics to those of FSC, you find at FSC students in civilian dress engaged in typical period activities. While this does not address Greek-letter activities, the stern FAC photographic styling doesn't appear to connote a typical college setting, unlike the graphics at FSC. Sirberus (talk) 09:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Siberus, male students of Florida Agricultural College and the University of Florida, from 1884 until World War II, were members of the ROTC corps of cadets. For most of that pre-World War II history, students wore cadet uniforms to class. FAC/USF/UF was effectively a military school, similar to Texas A&M for most of its history. During that time, over a dozen fraternity chapters were chartered on either the Lake City or Gainesville campus; the military character of the school was not an impediment to the presence of fraternities. In fact, at least two of the national fraternities, Alpha Tau Omega and Sigma Nu, were founded at a military academy (VMI). The 1884 chartering of ATO and SAE at FAC is well documented by multiple publications of the university and the fraternities. Not sure what else to say. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not much to say - use your sources and the best documentation you have as you go. No one suggested history wasn't messy. I will do likewise. Cheers! Sirberus (talk) 13:37, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here's our missing reliable source on point, Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities (1920 ed.). A little research will confirm that Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities is one of the standard references for Greek-letter social fraternities. This on-line PDF of the 1920 edition of Baird's, available through Google Books, confirms several key facts and introduces several previously not in evidence. First, it confirms that ATO and SAE chapters were chartered at FAC in 1884, and PKA at FAC/UF in 1904 (pp. 85, 303, 321). It also confirms that KA chapters were chartered at FSC in 1903 and FAC/UF in 1904 (p. 204) -- clearly, the University of Florida was not a military school so hostile to hosting fraternities, as asserted by the 1903 KA Journal, because it chartered a KA chapter less than a year later. It also notes that Phi Kappa Delta, a local Greek-letter fraternity, was started at Stetson University in 1895 (pp. 699 & 851). It also provides a plausible origin for the myth that the FSC fraternities "transferred" to UF; according to Baird's, the FSC chapter of KA (Alpha Psi, 1903) was "merged" with the UF chapter of KA (Beta Zeta, 1904) -- sometime after the 1905 consolidation and before the 1920 publication date (pp. 204 & 206). Please note also that according to our Wikipedia article, List of Kappa Alpha Order chapters, the "Alpha Psi" chapter name was later re-issued to a new chapter at Rollins College; this is a non-standard chapter naming practice that I have not previously encountered for any other fraternity. Please also note that there are no other entries for "Florida State College" fraternities before 1903; there are several for FSC sororities between 1904 and 1920. You can find all of this information in Baird's by using the simple keyword searches "University of Florida" and "Florida State College."
Okay, guys, I've done my part. What you do with this reliably sourced information is up to you. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:45, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Dirtlawyer1 that this appears to be another error. The source is just a timeline attached to a library guide about what's in the collection. The bit about Kappa Alpha looks like it comes from this 1903 issue of Kappa Alpha Journal, which does claim this chapter was the first Greek letter fraternity at a Florida college. But the Baird's source shows it's a mistake. And none of the sources indicate that the FSC fraternity system transferred to the University of Florida, so the original claim needs to stay out as well.--Cúchullain t/c 15:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there is also the matter of the FSC fraternity "system," which apparently consisted of the one KA chapter from 1903 to 1905; according to Baird's, there was also a single FSC sorority, Kappa Delta, chartered in 1904. The original claim was that FSC fraternities "transferred" to the new university and formed the basis of the new university's Greek system; that did not happen -- there were already four fraternities in existence at FAC/UF in 1905: (1) ATO (1884); (2) SAE (1884); (3) PKA (1904); and (4) KA (1904). The most that can be said, using Baird's as the source, is that the FSC KA chapter was merged with the UF KA chapter, keeping in mind that the two KA chapters were one and two years old, respectively, at the time of the Buckman Act. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, we can indeed say that the Florida State KA chapter merged into the UF chapter based on Baird's p. 206. Anything like that for the sororities? If it's just KA I doubt it's worth getting into here.--Cúchullain t/c 16:49, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why would the sororities have merged, Cooch? FSC became an all-girls college in 1905-06, and USF/UF became an all-boys school. As far as I can tell, FSC had one sorority in 1905 (Kappa Delta, 1904), and UF would not have any sororities until after World War II when it went co-ed in 1947. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ha, good point... so I guess there's really nothing to it beyond the fact that the KA chapters merged.--Cúchullain t/c 20:33, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cuch, the issue may have been resolved by the reference you posted regarding KA. If you read through the text the Board of Trustees at FAC did not allow the Greek system as the character of the school was military. If the orgs at FAC were unauthorized then that tends to corroborate FSU's claim. Sirberus (talk) 16:16, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, if the claim is really accurate. I don't think I'm ready to accept this source in contradiction to Baird's saying that two of UF's frats go back to 1884, and that one of Stetson's goes back to 1895.--Cúchullain t/c 16:49, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sirberus, did you miss the part where KA chartered a chapter at FAC/UF in 1904, the year after it chartered the chapter at FSC? Seems kind of odd for an institution that does not permit fraternities, and whose president in 1904 (Andrew Sledd) was an initiated member of Phi Delta Theta. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:55, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Plus, regardless of whether the Kappa Alpha Journal was correct about FAC's frats, there's the fact that Stetson University apparently had a frat back in 1895. It seems pretty clear the claim is an error.
That said, it's probably worth indicating more clearly that male students transferred to the new university in 1905.--Cúchullain t/c 20:33, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dirtlawyer1, the issue I see is if the chapters were authorized by the respective college Boards of Trustees. This salient detail appears to be what the FSC claim in part states, per the KA recitation. The KA Journal says only the FSC had an authorized chapter in 1903. FAC's BoT may have followed suit in 1904 with KA and perhaps authorized the other chapters. I have seen nothing in Baird's which states what chapters were "authorized" by the university and which were not. This is like your other, earlier, FAC frats. I am thinking they were unauthorized by the FAC BoT. Apparently competition was alive and well back then too and FSC appears to have jump started the frat competition by establishing the first "authorized" chapter in Florida. Frats were highly organized social affairs back then, if my parents are a guide. I suspect this hypothesis is the best answer. When viewed in this context FSU's claim holds water, since FAC followed FSC in authorizing previously unregulated groups and the new UoSoF subsequently absorbed both or all male chapters. Technically this logic also follows the Buckman Act law where previously existing colleges were abolished and the remains segregated and consolidated. Bairds thus is not relevant as any but a period phone book of generic Greek-letter groups. I see no error in FSU's claim; but maybe a bit of an exaggeration, not at all unusual in the university realm. Kind of like freshman admissions stats. As a result, I see no harm properly showing the claim, with appropriate references and qualifiers. Clearly such information as this shows POV; but indeed it is their respective histories. The same goes for UF and their "facts" about their history. Sirberus (talk) 00:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can take this source's claims for granted. Sure, it's possible the FAC frats were "unauthorized" or something, but it seems just as likely, or more so, that the source is mistaken. Again, we have another reliable source saying there were frats at both FAC and Stetson well before this time. I think it's time we move on to other things.--Cúchullain t/c 15:59, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cuch, I am not taking any source for granted, as I initially posted on your talk page when I joined the conversation. My point is about best evidence. The KA Journal source gives period explanation into why FSU makes it's claim (which I would break into two parts), the other sources do not - at least not where I have found it. However, you are right this is a small matter and I have many other things to do. At my leisure I will re-review all the sources and post my conclusions. At this point I am thinking I may ask for additional comment. I urge you and Dirtlawyer1 to post links to your best evidence if you have not already done so. Interestingly, I was quite ready to set this down per your and Dirtlawyer1's position before you produced the period KA Journal. That was a great find. Cheers! Sirberus (talk) 11:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request - delete school shooting reference[edit]

This is an inappropriate subject to cover in this article. For example, we don't include the Ted Bundy killings or other crimes which occurred in and around campus over the years. Such subjects are not relevant to the foundation of the university nor alter or affect the general direction of the university over time. This strikes me as inserting a gun control political position in a history article. I suppose one could argue the Gallows Hill executions are like references, but that association relates more to the location of Gallows Hill being part of the FSU campus than the executions which occurred there in the 1830s. I suggest the section on the school shooting be deleted from this article. Sirberus (talk) 21:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed and done. This section was removed and the Ted Bundy section was as well. Contributing authors need to stay on task and avoid the trap of recentism. I also deleted some puffery which added no value to a history article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.168.151.105 (talk) 10:43, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Trouble archiving links on the article[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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Removing Ted Bundy makes FSU look weak and deceptive[edit]

Not even a link? Not even a "See also"? This isn't how a great university handles an unpleasant episode. IMHO. deisenbe (talk) 12:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • No it really doesn't. Don't you have anything better to do than bash Florida State University on every talk page? Its getting old.--SeminoleNation (talk) 06:03, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I removed the Ted Bundy homicides as they did not occur on the FSU campus but at other places which, while the Chi Omega house might be affiliated in some way with FSU officially, was not actually FSU or state property. Since no list of student crime victims is on any university history page I know about I think it unwise to start one here. I really don't know why this would ever be suggested for a university history page on Wikipedia. The library shooting, while on FSU property, was also removed for the same reason - there is no list of crime victims on any university history page I know about and I again find it unwise to include it here. I agree with the other comment (above section) the sensational shooting crime reference in this article appeared more political commentary on things other than the history of a state university. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.168.136.62 (talk) 07:19, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the FAMU article, there's a lot on the band "incident". deisenbe (talk) 14:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC) 14:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Consider the Harvard University history page. The oldest university in the United States and it certainly has problems with crime on and near campus. There must be thousands of crimes which have been logged on or near Harvard overs the years. However, the history page contains only significant events which affect the direction of the University in a material way. For FSU, as a state university, I am surprised there is no mention of the law showing FSU is now deemed a preeminent university in Florida which is certainly a material event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.168.217.187 (talk) 07:54, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Removed this section as the Chi Omega murders by Bundy have nothing to do with FSU's history as a state university. I am surprised this was allowed to be in the article as long as it was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.168.181.176 (talk) 06:27, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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edit warring about see also history of florida[edit]

Deisenbe and SeminoleNation about your see also section history of florida edit warring:

  • please stop editwarring.
  • figure this out on THIS page. if you cant call for a WP: third opinion. I am taking this off my watchlist--Wuerzele (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should not have link to "History of Florida" under "see also"[edit]

Neither FSU nor any other university deserves a link to History of Florida. deisenbe (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I think that it does. This was the first state university of the state of Florida. It definitely deserves a link to the history of Florida.--SeminoleNation (talk) 17:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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