Talk:History of the Boy Scouts of America/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Attention tag

Please expand the lead. Great start! A few sections need expanding too: 50s,60s, 90s, 2000.Rlevse 15:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

OK for B-class now, a bit more for GA or A-class though.Rlevse 17:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Growth section

Should growth be renamed training or something similar?Rlevse 17:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Historical membership controversies

I found the following in an old version of the BSA Membership Controversies article. Not sure if you can use any of it in this article:

"The Boy Scouts give female adult leaders all of the privileges of male adult leaders. Although this was not true in decades past, the policy was instituted in response to a shortage of adult males willing to participate actively in running the troops. While many scouting adults do have their own children in the program, it is not necessary to have a child in the program to be actively involved with a scout unit.

Until 1954, the Boy Scouts of America was a racially segregated organization. Colored Troops, as they were officially known, were given little support from Districts, Councils and the national offices. Some scouting executives and leaders believed that Colored Scouts and Leaders would be less able to live up to the ideals of the Boy Scouts.

In the 1980s, some Boy Scout troops in the Eastern United States were involved in a scandal resulting in violence occurring on campout trips. In Virginia, a report surfaced that a scout had been badly beaten by fellow scouts at the Goshen, Virginia Boy Scout Camp. Further reports followed of bullying of younger scouts by older scouts, especially on prolonged outdoor trips where adult supervision was limited. Parents challenged the Boy Scouts attitude to such instances, since several adult leaders were quoted as saying that scouts in the field should "know how to take care of themselves" and that "natural horseplay" on campout trips was not a problem.

To prevent such incidents and other forms of child abuse, the BSA developed an extensive Youth Protection Plan in the mid-eighties that actively teaches both youth members and adult leaders in how to recognise, resist and report child abuse in both Scout and non-Scout venues. In addition, it provides tight requirements on adult leadership and activities to help ensure that Scouting is a safe venue for its participants. Several Scouts have been expelled from the organization for violence."

This is from the BSA legal site:[1]

"Quinnipiac Council v. Commission on Human Rights & Opportunities, 528 A.2d 352 (Conn. 1987) A female volunteer leader sued a Boy Scout council alleging that the then policy of limited Scoutmaster positions to men violated the Connecticut public accommodations law. The Connecticut Supreme Court held that the public accommodations law did not apply to Scouting’s leadership positions because volunteering to serve youth was not a right protected under that law.

In 1988, Boy Scouts of America changed the policy and allowed women to be Scoutmasters." --Jagz 07:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Early controversies

In the sentence:
"Thus, much of the American south as well as many major northern communities had segregated programs with 'colored troops' until the late 1940s."
Does "northern communities" mean communities in the northeast US? --Jagz 18:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I specifically know that Chicago had segregation for some time, as the Lone Scouts of America got caught up in it. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

In the last sentence " In 1918 Robinson[who?] proposed that the YMCA troops form a branch of the BSA..." the comment 'who? was inserted and should be deleted. Edgar M. Robinson of the YMCA is listed in detail in the "Scouting comes to America" section.

Learning for Life

Learning for Life is linked to Exploring (Learning for Life) because a Learning for Life article does not exist yet. --Jagz 05:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I changed the wording around the link to clarify. --Jagz 22:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Learning for Life was created in 15 Jan. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Attempt to repeal BSA's federal charter

There was at least one attempt to repeal the BSA's federal charter. This one was right after the Supreme Court's June 2000 ruling on BSA vs. Dale. It was called the Scouting for All Act. See: [2] and [3]. I don't think this has been covered in any BSA articles yet. Should it go in this one? --Jagz 01:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Either here or the controversies. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Is the BSA's federal charter discussed anywhere? --Jagz 02:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Here- the Boyce attempt and the West charter. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 03:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I put the repeal attempt in the Controversies article. --Jagz 00:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Early controversies

It says in the article, "By 1930, West claimed to have stopped 435 groups from unauthorized use of Scouting". Was it just for that word only or other words like Scout? --Jagz 03:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Rowan, Edward L (2005). To Do My Best: James E. West and the History of the Boy Scouts of America. Las Vegas International Scouting Museum. ISBN 0-9746479-1-8.

I'm sure that would have included Scout as well. While it included some organizations like the American Boy Scouts, it was mostly commercial products using the Boy Scout name and images to sell everything from shoe polish to rifles. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

American Boy Scouts

In the article it says, "The USBS renamed to the American Cadets but soon folded." In the American Boy Scouts article, however, it says they renamed to the U.S. Junior Military Forces. Which is correct? --Jagz 08:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Federal charter

What are the reasons that the federal government granted the BSA a charter? --Jagz 13:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Stewart

In the "Scouting comes to the U.S." section, there is mention of a Edward S. Stewart. I am wondering if this could be Edwin F. Stewart, eventually the Scoutmaster of Troop 1, Ozone Park, Long Island? I am in possession of some items that have him as the Scoutmaster in February 10, 1913 (he was a relative of mine). We do not have record of where he stands in Scouting's history, but we believe him to be the third Eagle Scout. I do know that my grandfather had received his Eagle Scout sometime around 1912 (the year he turned 18). Rpoof1 02:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I got that from the Boyce bio. The book is at work- I will check it tomorrow. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I can find no reference for Stewart and Willis (I thought I had added these!). The entry comes from the very first version of the BSA article. They are not mentioned in the Boyce or West bios. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Senior patrol

I think the BSA supported the idea of a senior patrol for older boys and then it was changed to the Leadership Corps. The Leadership Corps was eliminated and then older boys were supposed to stay in patrols with the younger boys, except that the new boys to the Boy Scouts (not sure if it was just the youngest ones or just the ones new to the Boy Scouts) were supposed to be in a separate patrol. Are they still going with the new boy patrol concept? There was supposed to be an experienced Scout and an assistant Scoutmaster assigned to the patrol. I thought the idea was foolish because unless there is someone babysitting the new patrol, they aren't going to be effective at setting up camp and preparing cooked meals, etc., by themselves. That's why it is good to have the new boys in patrols with older boys so they can learn from them. What was the reason for it, so the new boys wouldn't get picked on? --Jagz 15:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

AS to your first question, the BSA has gone all over the place as far as senior Boy Scouting. Currently, the official senior program is the Venture patrol (not to be confused with Venturing). In our troop, we have a Greenbar patrol composed of the senior leaders- effectively, this works like the old Leadership Corps. Second: There is no BSA policy on how to deal with new patrols- this is left up to the troop or team. In my troop, we generally have entire Webelos dens cross over. Since these are already functional groups, the new patrol concept works for us. We assign a First Class or Star Scout as patrol leader and have an assistant Scoutmaster as mentor. If we had an older boy join up, we would either let him pick the patrol or assign him to a light patrol. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe the older teens want to be in a separate patrol usually, plus that gives the younger Scouts more leadership opportunities as patrol leaders and assistant patrol leaders. I think the 10th edition of the BSA handbook supported the new boy patrol concept. Assigning an experienced boy as patrol leader to the new boy patrol sounds like a good idea provided you can find someone interested in doing it and they can attend most of the camping trips. The 10th edition talked about assigning a Troop Guide to the new patrol, an experienced Scout but not actually a patrol member (but they would not always be there with them). --Jagz 16:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
There are guidelines and recommendations, but it is really up to the troop. Where does this discussion fit into the history article? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The article mentioned that the Leadership Corps was eliminated period. The next sentence talks about Tiger Cubs. It doesn't say what they did with the older boys. --Jagz 16:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Ah. Some stuff was a bit out of order and has been updated. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Scout rank

Anyone know when the Scout rank was added? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 03:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Other issues

I hope I'm doing this right; please forgive me if I've violated anything. There are a few controversies in Scouting history that might be worth looking at; both were in the '70's. One was the arrest of the executive director of the BSA in (I think) the Holland Tunnel between New Jersey and New York City. There is a police booth in there. One fine day a car pulled up to the booth. Its driver got out and started beating the hell out of the police officer therein. Turns out that the driver was way beyond drunk, and moreover he was the executive director of the Boy Scouts.

I don't recall a police booth *in* the tunnel- perhaps at either end? Regardless, is there any reference for this? --Gadget850 ( Ed)

Around the same time there was a mighty scandal in the Chicago area. I'm not sure precisely who got the Federal anti-poverty money for the non-existent Scout troops that were supposed to have been formed in inner-city neighborhoods, but the incident was regarded as a great blow to the Scout's national organization.

This is covered in Boy Scouts of America membership controversies --Gadget850 ( Ed)

And a few years ago there was yet another scandal about the sale of Scout camps to developers for exceedingly high profits by local Scout councils, the money for which sort of disappeared. The Wall Street Journal ran a story on this.

Again we need a reference. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

All might be worth investigating. M Kinsler kinsler33@hotmail.com Kinsler33 04:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

New discussions go at the bottom of the page. Simply click on the + tab at the top and it will create a new section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 09:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Rewriting history

Some recent edits seem to be an attempt to censor history to make it more politically correct at the expense of accuracy and information. --Jagz 16:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It's sort of like "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "The history of a war is written by the side that won". In other words, history is a multi-dimensional thing and what it looks like depends on where you're standing.Rlevse 16:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Age limit

In the section 1950s states, "Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts lowered their age limits". Is that the maximum or minimum age limits? --Jagz 13:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Minimum as I recall. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Adult advancement

Adults used to be allowed to work towards Eagle Scout. Does the article mention this? --Jagz 13:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Not that I see. It is in the Eagle Scout (Boy Scouts of America) article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

BSA history article

I found this BSA history article from 1923.[4] --Jagz 16:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

"There is a very enthusiastic boy down in Virginia at Staunton..." Which is ten minutes from me. I wonder if Herman Newman is still alive? Not Scouting related, but interesting. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Missing Lots of Controversy

This article comes off like a propaganda piece written wholly in favor of scouting. Where's all the information about Gays being denied participation? Where is all the information about politicians who have used the boyscouts to raise campaign funds? Where is all the information about the boy scouts attempting to model themselves after "Hitler Youth" during World War II? This article reads like a sugar pill. 98.211.129.152 (talk) 09:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

No kidding. The LDS crowd obviously owns this article in whole. Hardly even a whimper about what is perhaps the organization's defining controversy in the last 20 years. That and the fact that they've been overrun by a cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.29.20 (talk) 21:35, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Boy Scouts of America membership controversies; linked through the navbox. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
I see no such link it this article... I searched for the text on the whole page.Dougsa (talk) 14:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Click on show, then issues, then take your pick. --  Gadget850 talk 18:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

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Girls can be Boy Scouts of America, too

Now they can be Boy Scouts, too. http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-boy-scouts-girls-20171011-story.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Never mind the political bullsh*t in the article, this is a welcome and needed step that should have happened 35 years ago. This is way more monumental than previous changes. Now American girls have a viable alternative!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 01:20, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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I can't find a source for this:

In the "Early Controversies" section, it says

The original handbook used a wealth of material from Baden-Powell's handbook. The comments on loyalty to employers concerned the labor unions– the Industrial Workers of the World in Portland, Oregon protested loudly during the 1912 tour. These comments were removed from the 1911 edition and West made much of the labor positions of the rival American Boy Scouts.

I could not find a source for this. Does anyone have one we could add? ForTheGrammar (talk) 23:29, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

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