Talk:History of the Jews in Russia/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Avaya1, please stop doing controversial changes to the infobox without discussion

A discussion moved from the talk page of Avaya1. Such a discussion should be held on the talk page of the article and not on a private talk page.

"There was a discussion"? Really? Is that what you call a discussion? Half of the people he added are not even Jewish by the Jewish law nor they ever identified as Jews themselves (Jews only on the fathers side), and he removed every representative of the Yiddish culture. If you would be familiar with his posts you would know he promotes the Khazar hypothesis and has a history of pushing stuff into collages without discussion. If you agree with him, fair play, but use the discussion first will you? So far there was no discussion, he even admitted it and said he was being "bold". 2.124.5.254 (talk) 15:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I really don't get why you choose to edit war over it. If you think any of the individuals added by Khazar are good ideas, feel free to start a discussion about them. He admitted himself there was no discussion, so what is the point in your weird revert war? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.124.27.175 (talk) 17:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I really don't get your problem. Do you think it's funny? Do you have some mental issue? I mean, you are reverting to a version without discussion and that has people who are so not notable that they don't even have a Wikipedia article. And referring to me as a sock... really? Using my IP because I can't be bothered registering=being a sock? You need to get your terminology straight. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 11:30, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

You keep removing the collage, without any explanation. Now it seems to involve the fact that one or two of the people in the collage are half-Jews? To me, removing it because of this seems to be borderline racism (although one quite common against people of mixed heritage). As for the Khazar user, actually the present collage is different to his one. Avaya1 (talk) 20:47, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
You really must be taking the piss. You are trying to push a collage which was not discussed, a collage without notable people like Sholem Aleichem, a collage that includes this Lucy Dubchik or whatever which doesn't even have a Wikipedia page cause no one heard of her outside a small community in Israel, and the main point is... as I said, it's a collage with no consensus. It does look like you are doing it as a game just to be "naughty", grow up. The collage I revert to is the collage that was there for ages. If you want to change anything, add anyone, start a discussion.
And one more thing. How the hell is me saying we shouldn't put people who are half Jewish and don't see themselves as Jews is racism? If someone is half Jewish and consider themselves Jews, they fully qualify, it's not about being half Jewish. People like Vladimir Vysotsky though, who is half Jewish, yet never referred to himself as a Jew, always called himself a Russian and was Orthodox Christian (many of his songs had Christian themes)... obviously he doesn't qualify.
You've been on Wikipedia for a while, should no the procedures... and here you are behaving like a troll trying to push a messed up collage with people like Lucy Dubchik without even once using the talk page. What's your problem?
You can't get rid of a good old collage that in my opinion makes perfect sense without a discussion. How can you have a Russian Jews collage without GOlda Meir and Sholem Aleiche, but with people who don't consider themselves Jewish and never did?? If person X and person Y are both half Jewish, yet X sees himself as a Jew and Y doesn't, X is a Jew and Y isn't, why? Because they said so. How is that "borderline racism"? 2.124.5.254 (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I understand that you want to include Sholem Aleichem, which makes sense and I agree with. Excluding Vysotsky because he was half-Jewish, doesn't make sense. He has a lot of Jewish themes in his works, including one of his most famous songs, he wasn't an 'Orthodox Christian' (he was presumably secular), and he represents the history of the community which the article represents (in which a large proportion, even the majority, have inter-married). Finally, the Israeli actress I can agree with - but it would be worthwhile to find another Israeli entry, since a large proportion of the community now live in Israel. And Golda Meir, is really not categorizable as a Russian-Jew. She was born in Ukraine, and grew up in the US. Avaya1 (talk) 17:59, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Again, any change you want to offer you need to bring up on the talk page. I am not saying to exlude Vysotsky because he is "only" half Jewish, if he would consider himself a Jew I would be pro. The fact is, he always considered himself a Russian Christian (many songs about churches) and never spoke about Jews or his connection to them, he always identified as a Russian. Listen to songs like Kupola. And he wasn't secular, how much did you read about him? He believed in Jesus and went to Church. Again, weather he should or should not be in the collage... you can't just "sprung" it on the collage without discussing it on the talk page first, just like I might think Leva from Bi-2 should be in the collage but I can't just add him without a discussion on the talk page. Again, did it really make sense to delete Abraham Goldfaden, the founder of the modern Jewish theater, for someone who clearly didn't see himself as a Jew and was known to be a Christian??
About the Israeli entry... we did have a great entry! Golda Meir, and she is a Russian Jew because at the time she was born there was no Ukraine. Same Sholem Aleichem, he was born in what is today Ukraine, but whenever he spoke about where he'd from he said Russia (actually, so did Golda Meir on her certificates). People who were born and grew up in the Ukrainian SSR or Modern Ukraine couldn't be classified as Russian Jews even if they refer to themselves this way. However, those who were born at a time when Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire are Russian Jews (their country of birth was written as Russia wherever they immigrated). And again, why are we discussing it here? It all should be discussed on the talk page, with more people, before you trying to revert war and delete stuff).
There were other sections in the article which I thought were places as a joke or to take the piss out of the article.
* Garry Kasparov, his dad is Jewish, yet, but he made sure to change his Jewish surname, and described himself as a Kasparov has described himself as a "self-appointed Christian". Did it really make sense to delete Botvinnik for him??
* Some characters I would think were put in by an anti-Semite. Mikhail Fradkov, his dad is Jewish, he considers himself an Orthodox Christian (just look up the article about him), and he is known in Russia for his involvement in corruption. Another person... Roman Abramovich, at last, someone who does see himself as a Jew, but do we really need someone involved in corruption and known for the "dodgy" way he made his fortune in the image?? Do we really need to "feed" on anti-Semitic portrayals?
For me it's simple. I don't care if someone is fully Jewish or half Jewish, it's about self identification and notability. If someone is Jewish only from the dads side and considers himself a Russian Christian, they shouldn't be in the article. Not because they are Jewish "only" on the dads side, but because they are considering themselves to be Orthodox Christian and obviously not Jewish. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Some selections you proposed I actually don't oppose, but I oppose you trying to "push" them in without a discussion or consensus. Example. Pasternak, why not?? He looks like a good option, but is he a better option that Osip Mandelstam that you deleted? I'm not saying he isn't, I'm just saying it's something that needs to be discussed. Lev Shestov? Great idea! I actually love it and think we should add him to the infobox. NOT instead of someone, but in addition to the existing ones. Same about Leonid Kantorovich or Grigori Perelman (I am against adding both of them because that will be over-representation for the exact science). About Ida Rubinstein... just wow! I love it! Great idea, there are obviously not enough women in the collage. Why not?? But again, let's discuss it on the article talk page, let's try and "formulate" something we agree one and only THEN change something which was here for ages. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 14:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I added 4 of your suggestions as a new line to the original collage:

I hope no one is against it, and I think it actually makes sense. All the 4 were your suggestions, all the 4 identified themselves as Jews through their lives, and definitely qualify by notability standards. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 15:02, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I also changed some of the images to bigger ones to balance the lines out in length. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


There is no consensus to add Golda Meir and Isaac Asimov. Neither are Russian in any way, or ever had Russian citizenship, language, nationality of culture. Gold Meir was Ukrainian-born, and grew up in the US, later becoming an Israeli. Isaac Asimov spent three-years in Russia, couldn't speak any Russian, and was 100% an American. We have infoboxes for them - History of the Jews in the Ukraine, Israeli Jews and American Jews. Adding them to this category (which they don't belong to), is nonsensical and extremely misleading for an encyclopedia. There are real Russian Jews, who represent the subject of the article, and those are the people who belong in the infobox. Avaya1 (talk) 15:19, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

"There is no consensus to add Golda Meir and Isaac Asimov"? Are you taking the piss? They area already IN the consensus, they have always been in those collages. If anything, there is no consensus to REMOVE Golda Meir and Isaac Asimov. Just because you don't think they should be in the collage doesn't mean they shouldn't, there is a reason until you showed up they have always been in the collage, and will stay here unless after a proper discussion a new consensus will be achieved.
When Golda Meir was born it was a part of the Russian empire and in every document she wrote that she was born in Russia or the Russian empire. Isaac Asimov was born in a part which even now is Russia. They were both born in Russia/Russian empire, therefore, there are no issues regarding where they were born.
If Isaac Asimov would be born in the US, I would agree with you, but he didn't. About the culture thing... shat culture do you think they had at home? And everyone knows Golda Meir spoke Yiddish, isn't that the culture of Russian Jews (at the time)?
Just because a Jew moved to another country doesn't change the fact where he or she were born.
And why do you think you have a monopoly deciding who is a "real Russian Jew"? Most people would obviously disagree with you. The fact is, it was decided in past collages to have both of them in. And you trying to say Jews born in Ukraine when it was still Russian empire are ONLY Ukrainian Jews and not Russian Jews... that's just laughable.
If you want to get rid of two people, as long as you edit war you will be reverted and ignored. You want to achieve something?? Discuss. And who said you are the one to decide who will go in their place?? Again, a matter of consensus. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 21:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


Again, Avaya1, you fail to use the talk page

No, you can't remove Isaac Asimov and Golda Meir because they "left Russia at a young age", not without a consensus. They have been here on practically every collage ever used for this article, and for a reason. If you feel like they should be removed, start a discussion and see where it gets you. Without it, you can't just delete two people because you feel like they are not Russian enough. They were born in Russia, therefore, Russian Jews. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 22:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


Golda Meir was never even in Russia, she is from the Ukraine. There is no consensus to add Golda Meir and Isaac Asimov. Neither are Russian in any way, or ever had Russian citizenship, language, nationality or culture. Gold Meir was Ukrainian-born, and grew up in the US, later becoming an Israeli. Isaac Asimov spent three-years in Russia, couldn't speak any Russian, and was 100% an American. We have infoboxes for them - History of the Jews in the Ukraine, Israeli Jews and American Jews. Adding them to this category (which they don't belong to), is nonsensical and extremely misleading for an encyclopedia. There are real Russian Jews, who represent the subject of the article, and those are the people who belong in the infobox. Avaya1 (talk) 15:19, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

When Golda Meir was born it was a part of the Russian empire and in every document she wrote that she was born in Russia or the Russian empire. Isaac Asimov was born in a part which even now is Russia. They were both born in Russia/Russian empire, therefore, there are no issues regarding where they were born.
If Isaac Asimov would be born in the US, I would agree with you, but he didn't. About the culture thing... shat culture do you think they had at home? And everyone knows Golda Meir spoke Yiddish, isn't that the culture of Russian Jews (at the time)?
Just because a Jew moved to another country doesn't change the fact where he or she were born.
And why do you think you have a monopoly deciding who is a "real Russian Jew"? Most people would obviously disagree with you. The fact is, it was decided in past collages to have both of them in. And you trying to say Jews born in Ukraine when it was still Russian empire are ONLY Ukrainian Jews and not Russian Jews... that's just laughable.
If you want to get rid of two people, as long as you edit war you will be reverted and ignored. You want to achieve something?? Discuss. And who said you are the one to decide who will go in their place?? Again, a matter of consensus. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 21:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


This edit war around the collage is certainly a kind of fun, and though I'm not sure that these collages are worth anything at all, let me make a proposal and try to define a common set of criteria. In my opinion, the basic arguments are:

  • There is a large number of distinguished persons which would qualify. Therefore one should have no more than one person from each area of activity, and try to cover as broad areas as possible. One should also not put the same image twice on the same page. If one person is shown in the collage, its portrait should not appear in the text body, because there are other distinguished candidates from the same area.
  • In the coverage of different areas, one should consider which areas have had especially strong contributions and choose the "granularity" appropriately. E.g. there were so many "stars" in classical music that it is reasonable to make it with "finer" granularity: at least a pianist and a violinist. On the other hand, the contributions in fine arts are less prominent, so it's enough to have one painter, and not necessary to have one for the realism, another for the avant-garde etc.
  • Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic countries were at some time part of Russia, but their pages have their own collages. Therefore if there are several strong candidates for the same area, one should try to spread them across the different pages, i.e. put the one on the Russian page, and the other on the Ukrainian one etc.
  • Many persons emigrated from Russia and made their careers abroad. If possible, one should choose those who have some cultural connection to Russia, i.e. at least speaks Russian. Thus, e.g. Azimov should not be in the collage.

Applying these rules I would come at this result:

  • Painter: Isaac Levitan or Marc Chagall or Leon Bakst. Levitan is on the Lithuanian page, Chagall and Bakst are on the Belarussian page. I would put Bakst here and take him off the Belarussian page and find another person for the Belarussian page (e.g. Boris Gelfand or Yakov Zeldovich). Chagall is somewhat better known, so let the Belarussian page have some famous names.
  • Prose writer: Sholom Aleichem or Isaak Babel or Ilya Ilf (possibly with a direct link to Ilf and Petrov, because his own page is very short). Sholom Aleichem and Babel are both on the Ukrainian page. One can take one of them out of that page, and put David Oistrakh, a violinist, instead (they have none at the moment).
  • Poet: both Mandestam and Pasternak have well-chosen pictures in the text body which should stay there. But there is another genius which is at least equally renowned: Joseph Brodsky. He is thus the best candidate for the collage.
  • Dancer: Maya Plisetskaya. Then her picture (with Putin) should be removed from the text. There are enough famous candidates from the diaspora, e.g. Evgeny Kissin to be put in the text. Then Ida Rubinstein should not be in the collage. But she can stay in the text body.
  • Pianist: Anton Rubinstein. Yes, this is the best choice, as the founder of a whole school. Kissin should then be removed from the collage, but can be put in the text body instead of Plisetskaya.
  • Violinist: Maxim Vengerov or Leonid Kogan. Other candidates: David Oistrakh I proposed for the Ukrainian page (s. above), Jascha Heifetz is on the Lithuanian page.
  • Chessmaster: Mikhail Botvinnik. Same argument as with Rubinstein. Then Kasparov is not a candidate here (but would be a good one for the History of the Jews in Azerbaijan).
  • Natural sciences: Landau is also on the Azerbaijani page. He is really the strongest candidate, the founder of a theoretical physics school. Alternatives would be Abram Ioffe and Vitaly Ginzburg.
  • Mathematics: Grigori Perelman. Yes, there have been so many contributions in these fields, that one cannot have only one physicist for all exact sciences.
  • Business: Sergey Brin. Then his other picture should be removed from the text body. If one needs a picture of a businessman in the diaspora in the text body, Jan Koum would be a good candidate. But there is no picture of him here yet. I think it's not really necessary to have a picture in the body.
  • Theater director: Abraham Goldfaden is also on the Ukrainian page. The alternatives would be Solomon Mikhoels (no photo) or Mark Zakharov. Here I'm not sure if one should keep Goldfaden on both pages or choose Zakharov for this page.
  • Philosophy: Lev Shestov or Ayn Rand. I would put Shestov on the Ukrainian page, and Rand here.
  • Politics: Well, it's hard to find good politicians in Russia or with a strong connection to Russia. Both Golda Meir and Leo Trotsky are on the Ukrainian page. One can take one of them from there and put her/him here. Or skip politics altogether.
  • Concerning Leonid Kantorovich, he is both a mathematician and an economist. There is Perelman to represent mathematics. I would consider including or not including Kantorovich depending on the size of the collage.
  • My further proposal is to include a theatre/cinema actor and a stand-up comedian. There have been huge contributions in these areas from the Jewish community. The candidates would be Faina Ranevskaya and Arkady Raikin. Alternatively, Raikin could be placed onto the Latvian page.

--Off-shell (talk) 00:17, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The only problem I have with the collage is the style that's used. The template that should be used should be the one that can be found in the Ashkenazi Jews article. Khazar (talk) 04:23, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I personaly don't have a problem with changing the style, I think the Ashkenazi Jews style is very nice and think it will make the article look much better. The only issue is... in the style of Ashkenazi Jews there is space for 15 people, here we have 16. If we are changing the style, who should be the person removed? I personally think that it should be Isaac Asimov, Boris Pasternak, or Osip Mandelshtam, because we have 4(!) writers in the collage, which I guess is over-representing an area. I on purpose didn't mention Sholem Aleichem because I definitely think Sholem Aleichem should stay, after all, he is the greatest Yiddish writer ever (and was named the Jewish Mark Twain). What are your thought on the topic? Who should be removed? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 07:16, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi, I liked many of the name you proposed (though it would require a radical change to the collage), but I don't think there is a problem in having the same person in few collages. The thing is, until the foundation of the Soviet Union there was a very tiny amount of Jews in the border of modern Russia (the Pale of Settlement), so when you were speaking about Russian Jews at the time, you literally meant the Jews from Ukraine and Belarus. They were the one going through the pogroms, the ones speaking Yiddish, the stereotypical old town "Russian Jews". They didn't define themselves in any other way than Russian Jews, and when they moved to the US or Israel at their country of birth they wrote Russia, because Ukraine and Belarus were non existant terms then. Like if someone was born in Lviv when it was still Poland, they are qualified as Polish Jews even though later it became a part of Ukraine, right? Well that is the same case.
I get your argument some people are being used twice in collages, but I think it's normal. I think they were originally on Russian Jews because they were so notable, and later were used on Ukrainian Jews and Belarusian Jews because... well, they were so notable they were just taken again. I personally think it's good.
I don't agree we should limit ourselves to one person from every area... but we should reduce the amount of representatives of each area, and allow to represent other areas this way, you are completely right in that. Very fair point! We do have 4 writers in the collage, yet except Sholem Aleiche, who I definitely think should be here, I am not bothered who shell be removed out of them. What is your opinion on that?
Painters: I think Chagall is such a huge figure, he should be kept on both Belarusian Jews AND Russian Jews pages. It's funny you mentioned Yakov Zeldovich, I'd love to add him to the Belarussian Jews page! The problem is... we don't have a normal picture of him? Like a normal size one!
Prose Writer: Ilf and Petrov are genius, however, they are known only for two books, and they are not known enough separately but rather as a team. Sholem Aleichem always wrote he was from "Russia" or born in "Russia", and due to his influence on the whole Russian Empire Jewish culture I think he should stay. Isaac Babel... he is such a big figure... amazing idea! Obv he should be in, but instead of who? Instead Pasternak or instead of Asimov? Because we need to be careful with the number of writers. I don't mind instead of whom, Babel definitely should be in.
Poet: I think Joseph Brodsky should be in, but instead of Mandelstam. Having two poets in... isn't it too much? And Brodsky is more known abroad. Your thoughts?
Violinist: The problem with the Violin player, as much as I think Leonid Kogan or David Oistrakh are notable enough... we don't have a good picture of any of them. And who should they go in instead? We do have Anyon Rubinstein representing music, but are the more notable than him?
Mathematics: I agree with Grigori Perelman... problem is, instead of who? I definitely think he should be in, but don't see instead of whom! Instead of... I am not a big fan of idea but don't see another choice, instead of Levitan or Kantorovich? I lean more to instead of Kantorovich, but I really can't decide. There is no one I feel like removing, but I do see that Perelman needs to be in.
Business: We don't have a picture of Jan Koum, and I do believe that Brin's face is very recognizable.
Philosophy: Such a great idea!!! We lack women in the collage, and that does the trick. Nice one! I hope no one minds as I put Ayn Rand in this collage already, it simply is such a good idea to increase the number of women in the collage.
Politics: Golda Meir is the one we have which is great also because of the male/female balaknce, I think Trotsky was avoided due to his "controversy". I really don't agree with it, but I think that's what was discussed on the talk page in the past.
I agree Perelman should replace Kantarovich. The problem is... do we have a normal size of Perelman? How do we make one?
Raikin is a great idea, the only issue is instead of whom but he is a great suggestion!
I loved some of your ideas for the Ukrainian page, do you mind posting them on the Ukrainian Jews talk page, just so we could take it further there as well. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 07:58, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I checked for Grigori Perelman... the problem with his picture is the size, is unusable. Hoe can we reduce it or find one which fits the normal standard used here? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 07:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

So based on the proposals so far, might be a bit to early, but what do you think about that version. The design will be 5 lines of 3 like in Ashkenazi Jews, as proposed by user Khazar.

What do people think so far? I tried incorporating as many suggestions as possible, while not-over representing any area. I also tried to increase the number of women to stick to the equality standards (also, I made sure a woman will be places in the middle of every line, for the sake of esthetics).

The main thing I struggle with, writers. The occupation was over-represented, but what I am not sure is this: Boris Pasternak or Isaac Babel? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 12:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Well done! Since a good Pasternak's picture is present in the text (where it fits very well in my opinion), I would prefer Babel. Concerning Perelman, I created a cropped portrait version out of the original one:


I propose to put it instead of Ida Rubinstein, whose other picture may remain in the text body. --Off-shell (talk) 18:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I would also propose to keep only one prose writer. Either Shalom Aleikhem or Babel should be enough. Instead, a violinist, like Kogan or Vengerov, would be good. A fiddler is a so typical Jewish occupation :). In addition, Anton Rubinstein lived on the 19th century, and since then there were so many great musicians, that it would be good to place a young one. So I would propose Maxim Vengerov. --Off-shell (talk) 19:26, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Nice!!! Good, now we can use Perelman. Here is the problem with removing Ida Rubinstein, she's a woman. Ideally the situation would be 50% men-50% women, but that's a bit hard to achieve.
About Maxim Vengerov... there are many Jewish violin players who were better then him, I feel like putting him in would be disrespectful to the better ones. Leonid Kogan is a brilliant idea, problem is there is no image of him. But David Oistrakh has plenty, I didn't notice but he has good ones in the common. The question is... instead of whom?
At least for now I'll enter Perelman instead of Babel. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 20:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Really so many? :) For my taste, he is the best. :) But I don't pretend to be an expert in the field. To avoid having 2 female dancers, here is a possible female alternative: Lina Stern, a life scientist. --Off-shell (talk) 20:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
He is good, but he didn't "revolutionize" anything. Like Oistrakh was unique, he dictated a style. I guess it's like comparing Slash to Jimmy Hendrix. Slash is great, but Hendrix left such a bigger mark.
Such a great idea!!! I never felt fully comfortable with Ida Rubinstein in the first place, I mostly used her for being a woman, but that one is such a better candidate. Nice! Now who should we get out from the collage for a violin player? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps, make one more raw? with Oistrakh, Kantorovich... but then we need one more female in the middle :) May be Yevgenia Ginzburg or Maria Gorokhovskaya (this post stamp is somehow intriguing:))?
I feel like then it will be too big, they tried doing it on Ashkenazi Jews but it looked over loaded and was reverted by a consensus. I thought of instead of Raikin, just because it is English speaking Wikipedia and Raikin didn't really manage to get his name abroad due to the fact his humour is in Russian, but then again... he is the biggest comedian (and most influential) the Soviet Union has ever known, so I really don't know. That's a head ache. Ranevskaya is another person, but again... it will ruin the female line in the middle. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 21:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I see. I don't know either. In contrast, Germans page has got 30 pictures (5x6), Rossiyane 32 (8x4), French people 27 (9x3). But these collages indeed don't look nice any more. May be, just leave it as it is now. It is already well balanced. If other editors come up with different ideas, we may revisit it later. Thank you for your commitment. :) --Off-shell (talk) 22:08, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Nice propositions. I just want the template to be the same as the Ashkenazi Jews page because it's much easier to edit and change than the current one. Also, the only featured article that's about an ethnic group (Tamils) uses this style as well. Khazar (talk) 22:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I love the whole concept of having the same style for Russian Jews and Ashkenazi Jews. It makes it easier for other to pick a style because they will know there I sort-of a "standard one". 90.198.246.7 (talk) 23:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
At least for now it is a good idea to leave it like it is. I have to say, it looks much better then before! 90.198.246.7 (talk) 23:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I changed the formatting of the collage in line with Khazar's proposal. I also think this looks better. Furthermore, looking at the Tamil people page, I think one could also make a 4th column here. This will still look good even loosing the male-female symmetry. --Off-shell (talk) 18:00, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Amazing! It does look much better, I didn't know how to do it. Doesn't it look a bit over-crowded the Tamil one? They have so many you don't notice the individual. Also, it does make this page unique, the male-female symmetry. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 18:36, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

new lead

The old lead for this article about the history of the Jews in Russia did not even mention the word "pogrom". The longer lead gives an overview of the major events in the History of the Jews in Russia. As MOS:LEAD says, the goal is to create a "standalone introduction" to the topic.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 19:48, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


Edit warring by Khazar

This is the estimate of the official Russian Jewish community for 2015. It is notable by any standard of inclusion - WP:RS, WP:V, WP:DUE. The Russian Jewish Congress also have made an even higher estimate this year. The infobox is also designed for this, stating - "Different estimates have been given". Removing it and writing threats in your edit summaries, is hardly productive. Avaya1 (talk) 01:36, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't care what the Russian Jewish community says. Fact is that virtually all censuses on the Russian Jews in Israel and Russia contradict it. Therefore, it is fringe. Khazar (talk) 01:38, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Remember this incident? Everyone but you questioned the source. Now you're repeating your own actions. Khazar (talk) 01:41, 2 March 2015 (UTC)


As the head of the Russian Jewish Congress himself explained this year, the census only counts people who specifically select Jewish as their nationality over being Russian. In the census, you have to choose mutually exclusive categories, and define yourself as non-Russian if you want to choose 'Jewish'. The Russian Jewish community are using a different criteria - people eligible for taking part in their programs and services, or repatriation to Israel. Interfax is a WP:RS and the claims of the Federation of Jewish communities are WP:DUE (and in no way could be counted as fringe, since they are an official state-sanctioned body). Even if we (editors of Wikipedia), believed them to be wrong, this is 'verifiability not truth' WP:V. They are notable and deserve to be in the infobox. And this 2015 statement is not Berel Lazar saying it like last time, but Alexander Boroda. We've had higher estimates this year from Yuri Kanner. If multiple official Russian Jewish leaders are giving the estimate - it is notable and also very difficult to describe as fringe view. Avaya1 (talk) 01:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Guys, please settle your dispute on the talk page rather than edit war. Maybe show both numbers: Censuses say A but the leaders of communities says B. Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:02, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I will add it to the infobox, with the explanation that there are different viewpoints and community's heads estimates have been disputed - WP:RS, WP:V, WP:DUE. Avaya1 (talk) 16:31, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Potential edit war by Sigehelmus

@Galassi and @Sigehelmus, I saw your edits on this page. If you have any disputes, discuss here. --Fazbear7891 (talk) 23:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

No dispute. An inflammatory undocumented edit rv'd. --Galassi (talk) 00:17, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
There is a dispute. See my reasons in the changelog. See Narodnaya Volya which was led by Vera Figner, Aleksandr Ulyanov, and Andrei Zhelyabov. This terrorist organization was led and the murder of the Tsar instigated by Jewish people. --Sιgε |д･) 00:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Got sources??--Galassi (talk) 14:02, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
" Vera Figner, Aleksandr Ulyanov, and Andrei Zhelyabov" at first, they were not Jewish Cathry (talk) 14:09, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

"many Jews were prominent in the Russian revolutionary movement"

According to the British historian Richard Overy in his book "The Dictators", "In 1917 there were 300,000 Zionists in Russia, organized in 1,200 local groups. Very few of of Russia's Jewish population were Bolsheviks; only 958 had joined the Party before 1917. By contrast, the main Jewish socialist organization, the Bund, had 33,000 members." p. 565

That's why I put "citation needed" behind it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.173.145.52 (talk) 13:10, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

The lede

After the latest changes (starting from Sep 2015), the article structure got distorted. The lede is overloaded incredibly with many details, in particular for the Soviet period. The detailed numbers of pogrom victims, schools, newspapers, decorated heroes etc. etc. must be in the respective sections of the article but not in the lede. According to WP:LEAD "the appropriate length of the lead depends on that of the article, but should normally be no more than four paragraphs." Currently there are 2 paragraphs for the whole history (1000 years) before the October revolution, and 7 for the Soviet period. --Off-shell (talk) 17:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

The maps of Jewish populations in the various Republics

Seem to be incorrect. Crimea was part of Russia in 1939, and Western Ukraine was a Polish possession. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.168.222 (talk) 02:56, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

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The following section needs to be updated

"Expelled en masse from England, France, Spain and most other Western European countries at various times, and persecuted in Germany in the 14th century, many Western European Jews naturally accepted Polish ruler Casimir III the Great's invitation to settle in Polish-controlled areas of Eastern Europe as a third estate, performing commercial, middleman services in an agricultural society for the Polish king and nobility between 1330 and 1370, during Casimir the Great's reign. Approximately 85 percent of the Jews in Poland during the 14th century were involved in estate management, tax and toll collecting, money lending or trade.[citation needed"

This has been shown to be patently false by genetics, the idea that many of the ashkenazi russian jews were derived from sephardic immigrants from the spanish and portuguese expulsions. DNA shows that virtually all Russian Jews derive from a population of Jewish males who moved from Northern Italy and Greece into central europe and so forth, while marrying indigenous women,

As an aside, this implies that Russian Jews are not even Jewish by Jewish law as one is jewish by ones mother being Jewish- there is also no legiiamate evidence of conversion among the indigenous women... - signed by anon IP

I'm unsure on the accuracy of census figures of the Russian Jewish population (both in Russia, its empire and former Soviet republics). There could been over a million (like 1.5 million) Jews in 1900 Russia alone, and the Ukraine would have 4 million. The emigration rate of Russian Jews to other countries was rather high, unless the birth rate was high and life expectancy increased over time before the two world wars (the Holocaust in WW2) and emigration to Israel. Today, about 100-150,000 known Jews in present-day Russian Federation, then estimates of 200-500,000 are still compiled. The number of Jews in Russia and former USSR greatly declined in the 20th century, from pogroms to forced assimilation, the Nazis' antisemitic racism to Soviets' state atheism, and mass emigration (90% reduction of Russia's overall Jewish population since 1900) to possibly those who hid their Jewishness from the outside or public, in fear of Russia's known antisemitism. 67.49.89.214 (talk) 02:23, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

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make no sense that more than two million russian jews flet to the usa between 1880-1920

according to this article in russia in 1897 there were 250,000 so if more than two million russian jews fled from russia this times it should have happened between 1880-1897 but according to this site http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop1.html in 1900 there were less than 1.1 million jews in the usa so how this is make any sense that more than two million russian jews fled to usa this times? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.69.213.137 (talk) 20:02, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not going to try to account for the discrepancy in numbers (and how they were tallied) as it is long standing content. It also appears in the body of the article, so my suggestion is that the figure is tagged for a reference. If no editors can find a reliable source from which the figure was taken, a change can be made. It could well be that the two million figure accounts for the entire outflux, not specifically to the USA, and that someone has conflated the figures of the exodus to read as being the US alone. I don't believe 'many' to be a reasonable alternative for the caption as it's far too vague and can mean hundreds, thousands, etc. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:22, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

it said mostly that is mean at least 1 million jews fled from russia to usa between this years in 1880 there were 230000 jews in the usa in 1900 1,058,135 at that time between the russian jewish population grew from 250000 to 536000 until 1926 so if this is not make any sense that most of the jews who fled from russia fled to the usa unless most of them fled to other countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.69.213.137 (talk) 20:44, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

You're using one source which doesn't actually address how its earlier figures were arrived at. I've checked the references, and they only deal with the Holocaust to post-WWII figures. In other words, the earlier statistics are unaccounted for raw data. As you can see, I've already found a reference that backs up the 'over two million' arriving in America. Wikipedia follows WP:RS, whereas your calculations are merely your own calculations based on a reference that doesn't even claim to be accurate (see WP:NOR). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
87.69.213.137, I think you're correct that "mostly" should mean "over 1 million", but in this context it seems possible that the verbiage was mangled a bit and actually means to say that of all the countries they fled to, the US was the destination of the greatest number of them. Not necessarily being greater than 50% of the total emigrant population. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 21:39, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Additions

Hello,

I plan on adding information to bulk up the area on Jews under the Tsars in the late 17th and early 18th century before Alexander the II. I will be pulling my information from a scholar on this time period, Gartner, in his article about Jews under the Tsars. Through this I will also be bulking up information on the schtels and the time directly after the semi-liberation of the Pale of Settlement. If there is anything else that anyone feels I should add, feel free to let me know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Russe138 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Russe138, can you be more specific? How will you "bulk up" that section? What are you planning to say? Mind the second "t" in shtetls. And what text by Gartner do you plan to use? What's Gartner's first name? Important so that we Wiki users can find it if we want to. Good luck!Chapmansh (talk) 22:37, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Lede

The lede is remarkably long. Does all of the information need to be there before a heading comes in? Can't parts be dispersed throughout the article? --Coldtrack (talk) 15:29, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

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Outsider looking in

Some sentences end awkwardly, some end in prepositions- in deep need of editing

An explanation of the causes of the diaspora from the Middle East 1500 years ago would have enhanced wthis article

Poor specifics when it comes to immigration into Europe as well as Russia

No mention of how immigration took place to the US in the early 1900's, and why the US was chosen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:4E02:9580:81EC:A33B:429E:98F8 (talk) 23:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Naming (2005)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Is there a particular reason, or need, for this article's name to specify "and the Soviet Union". I realise the Soviet Union was a larger entity than Russia - but the government was essentially based where it is now. --Oldak Quill 02:33, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jews lived in many places; Russia, Ukraine, BeloRussia, Khazakstan, Georgia, etc. The history covers all of them. Jayjg (talk) 02:36, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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Catherine the Great and Congress Poland

The author of the section titled Russian Empire says that Catherine II implemented the Pale of Settlement, and that Congress Poland constituted a portion of the Pale of Settlement. Since Catherine died in 1796 and Congress Poland did not come into existence until 1815, the section as written is misleading. 169.253.162.2 (talk) 17:59, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

WW1

IMO, it's highly questionable that large numbers of refugees, especially Jews "fled in terror before enemy invasion" (by which enemy? Germany and Austria-Hungary are the only contenders). There is ample, if anecdotal evidence that the Jews in conquered territories welcomed the German and Austro-Hungarian troops as liberators, which is quite plausible given the oppression in tsarist Russia and the relative freedom in Germany and Austria-Hungary at that time. 93.203.105.21 (talk) 23:16, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

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