Talk:Hmong: History of a People

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Notes from Tapp's book[edit]

In Pages 25 and 26 Tapp criticizes some books which cite Quincy's History of a People as well as criticizing Quincy himself. This information needs to be obtained and put in the respective book articles. And also in turn it's a great idea to write an article on Tapp's book as it's possible it may make mistakes too. Also as new scholarship comes in, it can dispute findings in older scholarship.

It is important for Wikipedians to get the stories behind the book sources they use and also it's important to make this information widespread and available to teach the public about this, from high school students all the way up to college professors WhisperToMe (talk) 07:56, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Leave no stone unturned![edit]

When I was trying to find more snippets from Tapp's book, I found a passage on Google books describing Quincy as a professor.

Mote, Sue Murphy. Hmong and American: Stories of Transition to a Strange Land. McFarland & Company, March 24, 2004. p. 89. "Keith Quincy, a professor and author of Hmong: History of a People,[...]"

So I did a Google search and found that he taught at Eastern Washington University. I notice Tapp (the detractor) did not describe Quincy as a professor but instead as Quincy's self-description "political philosopher" as a way of showing Tapp's belief in a lack of credibility in the author. We need to get the whole story and not only Tapp's or Pfeifer's story (or just any one story), so I will try to find a EWU page about Quincy's qualifications. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:20, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

http://web.archive.org/web/20031209114419/http://www.ewu.edu/csbs/depts/govt/programs.html - http://www.webcitation.org/6R0dNkbsQ - Quincy obviously worked in the department but it seems like he didn't have a university webpage (I'd love to see his resume to get more info on his qualifications) WhisperToMe (talk) 10:22, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Harvesting Pa Chay's Wheat[edit]

Quincy wrote another book, Harvesting Pa Chay's Wheat.

Mark Pfeifer mentioned the Pa Chay book here:

Pfeifer, Mark Edward. Hmong-related Works, 1996-2006: An Annotated Bibliography. Scarecrow Press, 2007. ISBN 0810860163, 9780810860162. p. 35

If/when someone wants to write about that book, the description from Pfeifer can be a good source! (No, in this description Pfeifer does not criticize the Pa Chay book) WhisperToMe (talk) 10:10, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing for Nicholas Tapp[edit]

Here are the Google Books snippet views used to obtain pieces of Page 18!:

See view of Snippet #1: "If one could bear it, one might summon strength to look through the extraordinarily inaccurate and utterly misleading publication by one "political philosopher" (certainly not a historian!), Keith Quincy, called Hmong: History of[...]"
See search page #1: "[...]repeats the long disproved missionary myth that because of the peculiarity of blonde hair and blue eyes among some Hmong they must have originated from Siberia, without apparently ever having heard of albinism (or considering the more [...]"
See search page #2: "[...]originated from Siberia, without apparently ever having heard of albinism (or considering the more recent effects of Hmong liaisons with Westerners). This sorry publication (Quincy 1988) includes an absolutely extraordinary five pages about[...]"
See view of snippet #2: "[...]absolutely extraordinary five pages about a Hmong kingdom which supposedly existed from 400 to 900 AD, which is presented as absolute fact although there is not a single shred of historical evidence to justify it. Moreover, this wretched paperback describes (in inventive detail!) a Hmong monarchy and specific political organisation at that time, despite the fact that there is no mention of "Hmong" in any historical record; since there is not even any traditional Chinese[...]"
See search page #3 "[...]a Hmong monarchy and specific political organisation at that time, despite the fact that there is no mention of "Hmong" in any historical record: since there is not even any traditional Chinese character for writing the word "Hmong," how could[...]"

WhisperToMe (talk) 13:32, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Follow the rabbit hole! (to get more information on criticisms of this book, get the reviews of the critical books)[edit]

In order to gain more knowledge about Tapp's criticism of this book, get the book reviews of Tapp's book because then the reviewer may have something to say. Maybe Tapp is right, or Tapp may not be. You won't know until you go down the rabbit hole.

There was a Wikipedian who cautioned against this because he thinks you have no way to verify whether the criticism is right or wrong. While I appreciate his intentions and thank him for the advice, documenting the criticisms and disputes is absolutely necessary when writing articles about history. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Entenmann's comments on the romanization of names[edit]

Comments from the article by Entenmann (Archive) (p. 4):

" While reading Keith Quincy's account, I was struck, even before recognizing the conflict he describes as the Jinchuan Wars, by his spelling of Chinese and Manchu names: Akoui for the Manchu general Agūi, Kin-tchuen for Jinchuan, Le Tsong-tou for Li Zongdu 李總督. (Zongdu is actually a title, usually translated as governor-general, but Quincy apparently assumes that it is a personal name.) These spellings follow eighteenth-century spelling conventions used by French missionaries in China."

I will be making redirects from these names, so readers of his book can more easily find what they are looking for.

On page 3 Entenmann states: "Sonom and the Jinchuan Wars have nothing to do with the Hmong. Fadiman and Quincy, among others, have perpetuated a mistaken identification of Sonom and his followers with the Hmong." WhisperToMe (talk) 13:54, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Notes on where the statement of "Miao" being imprecise pre-20th Century come from[edit]

From p. 13 of Entenmann:

"See the discussion in Chapter 9: "'Real History' and the Theory of Ethnic Categories" in Nicholas Tapp, Sovereignty and Rebellion: The White Hmong of Northern Thailand (Singapore: Oxford University Press, 1989), pp. 167-179; Ruey Yih-fu, "The Miao: Their Origins and Southern Migrations," Proceedings of the International Association of Historians of Asia (Second Biennial Conference; Taipei, 1962)."

So remember who Entenmann cites: Ruey Yih-fu and Nicholas Tapp WhisperToMe (talk) 14:30, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hillmer's mentions of the book[edit]

In Google Books PT263 (page unstated), Paul Hillmer, the author of A People’s History of the Hmong mentions how Fadiman relied on the book for the history, and yet Hmong: History of a People has no footnotes even though a university press published it. He cited Entenmann. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On Page unstated PT20: "Robert Entenmann has largely proved not only that that Sonom was not Hmong but that many other details of the account shared by Quincy and others are inaccurate." WhisperToMe (talk) 17:46, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mentions in Emerging Voices[edit]

Here is another mention of the mistaken identity of Sonom in PT32 of:

Ling, Huping. Emerging Voices: Experiences of Underrepresented Asian Americans. Rutgers University Press, December 30, 2008. ISBN 0813546257, 9780813546254.

Its important to note that Entenmann's essay on King Sonom has been cited by other sources on the Hmong! WhisperToMe (talk) 07:45, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]