Talk:Hokkien pop

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Taiwanese Pop Misconception[edit]

This article needs to be fixed. First of all, Taiwanese pop does not mean it is sung in Hokkien Chinese. Majority of Taiwanese pop has always been sung in Mandarin pop. The "Taiwanese" pop does not mean it is sung in Taiwanese languages (Chinese Minnan), it just means the pop is in "Taiwanese" style.

I see that some people classify the actual mandarin Taiwanese pop into Mandopop, this is unfair since the mandarin pop in Taiwan is in Taiwanese style, and in fact the pop sung in Taiwanese are a minority compared to the Mandarin ones. To be honest, the page Mandopop should not even exist because nobody knows what that is and all the songs sung in Mandarin are mostly produced by Taiwanese artists and cultivated in Taiwanese styles. Most Mandarin speaking countries like China (Hong Kong), Singapore and so on all listen to Taiwanese style Mandarin pop and the Mandopop is Taiwanese pop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjj84206 (talk • contribs) 01:13, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Finally I decided to fix this. Please voice any objections to the current title though.--Prisencolin (talk) 06:10, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 December 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, GeoffreyT2000 (talk, contribs) 02:11, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hokkien pop → Taiwanese Pop – Revert back to Taiwanese Pop as it has always been. Taiwanese is a dialect of Hokkien. There are differences in vocabulary and grammar between Taiwanese Hokkien and other Hokkien languages. This article only pertains to the music sung in Taiwanese Hokkien which not only has roots in Taiwan, but is also standardized there. Everything on this page, from history, certification system, etc. is all Taiwan. The Chinese Wikipedia page also refers to this by the more commonly used term: Taiwanese pop. The other more lengthier alternative is Taiwanese Hokkien pop. Snow009 (talk) 02:04, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • Oppose Several reasons:
1) In English, "Taiwanese" means "pertaining to Taiwan". Therefore "Taiwanese pop" in English means any pop music produced in Taiwan, regardless of the language (Mandarin, Hokkien, Hakka, Aboriginal languages, Japanese, English or whatever). This can be verified by Googling "Taiwanese pop". Clearly the most popular pop music in Taiwan is Mandopop (also please read the discussion above this move request). This article is about pop music sung in the Hokkien language.
2) Saying "There are differences in vocabulary and grammar between Taiwanese Hokkien and other Hokkien languages" is an exaggeration to say the least, especially the grammar part. While it's true there are several dialects of Hokkien, people in Taiwan don't even speak the exact same Hokkien. Per the Hokkien article: "Taiwanese in northern and coastal Taiwan tends to be based on the Quanzhou variety, whereas the Taiwanese spoken in central Taiwan tends to be based on Zhangzhou speech. There are minor variations in pronunciation and vocabulary between Quanzhou and Zhangzhou dialects. The grammar is generally the same." In music it's even harder to notice minor variations.
3) Taiwan does produce the most Hokkien pop, but Hokkien pop is also produced in mainland China, Singapore and Malaysia. We don't have an article titled Hong Kong Cantopop (even though the article Cantopop seems to be about Hong Kong only). Chen Jin Lang singing in "Taiwanese Hokkien pop" is inaccurate.
4) "Taiwanese Hokkien pop" produces 0 result in Google Books. "Hokkien pop" gets 39. Timmyshin (talk) 15:56, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, create a separate page for Hokkien pop, or even Singaporean Hokkien music, because this article was written in the context that it is under the umbrella of Hokkien pop, not Hokkien pop itself. It does not make sense for its Chinese Wikipedia counterpart to be about 台灣歌 (and also for most of this page’s history), and have it suddenly translate to 福建話歌 in English just to include the greater Hokkien music genre. It's just article theft.
It's also not just about the language that's sung, but also the style with specific roots, influences, and movement/history. Most of this article doesn't make sense anymore under the greater Hokkien pop context. To say that Chen Jin Lang sings this form of Hokkien music (i.e. 台灣歌) is just as inaccurate.
No Taiwanese Hokkien Pop then. However Taiwanese pop has also been used to differentiate itself from Mandarin pop. Snow009 (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
1) Wikipedia doesn't require "identical" titles between en.wiki and zh.wiki. For the matter, the word Hokkien (福建) is never used in Chinese wikipedia to refer to the dialect/language (and in fact outside of Southeast Asia no native speaker calls the language Hokkien).
2) Just like Taiwanese Hokkien isn't a homogeneous dialect, "Taiwanese Hokkien pop" is also not a homogeneous genre. Ang It-hong and Jeannie Hsieh have vastly different styles. The language is the only common factor.
3) The title Hokkien pop is consistent with the titles of Mandopop and Cantopop. As I mentioned, there's no Hong Kong Cantopop or anything like that. Creating separate articles for "Hokkien pop" and "Taiwanese Hokkien pop" is completely unmanageable, especially now that we live in an increasingly global world. For example, do Li Yasha (李婭莎) from Shanghai and Lim Jin-bum (林珍範) from South Korea sing in "Hokkien pop" or "Taiwanese Hokkien pop"? What about Eric Moo? Timmyshin (talk) 22:56, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Language is not the only common factor. Like I said, there are still origins and...everything else on the page. Why is everything so Taiwan centered (nobody in Taiwan calls it Hokkien), and written with only Taiwanese pop in mind? Why the Japan influenced history and Taiwan's certification system? Shouldn't the entire page be rewritten? How do they apply to the likes of Li Yasha, Lim Jin-bum, and Eric Moo? You have changed the direction of the article without actually editing the content itself and it makes no sense. I am all for consistency with Mandopop and Cantopop but until then, only as another page.
I would therefore think that those artists are singing Hokkien pop and not Taiwanese Hokkien pop, however from Chinese sources they seem to be singing 台語歌. Not sure why the double standard here. Snow009 (talk) 00:30, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The genre's production hub as well as the largest market is Taiwan, there's no denial of it. (Just like how the article Cantopop is pretty much all about Hong Kong.) The bottom line is "Taiwanese pop" is ambiguous. This is unlike for example Taiwanese opera (btw we are not titling it Song opera like zh.wiki). You are correct that some people use "Taiwanese pop" to mean "Taiwanese-Hokkien pop" as opposed to Mandopop, but there's no evidence that this is the primary use. If you search "Taiwanese pop" in Google Books you get more Teresa Teng and A-mei (mostly Mandopop singers) than Jody Chiang. If you must include the word "Taiwanese" in the title, then some kind of disambiguation is required, because again Mandopop is more popular in Taiwan and that is unlikely to change in the near future. The only possible alternate title I can think of is Taiwanese-language pop but "Taiwanese-language" is somewhat of a misnomer and not only is it inconsistent with the title Taiwanese Hokkien, but also potentially offensive to the Taiwanese aborigines who don't speak that language, and in addition the term is not nearly as popular as "Hokkien pop" in English-language books on Taiwanese pop culture as can be seen from a GBooks search. Timmyshin (talk) 09:11, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure how you got 39 results because I see only 9 results for hokkien pop, with quotes, screenshot. One is incorrectly parsed from a cursive font, reading "hok kien poe," in a Dutch-Chinese dictionary written in Dutch. Three of them aren't even about hokkien pop. (EDIT: I see 10 results now. New book called "Angry White People: Coming Face-To-Face with the British Far Right"). This means I see 5 sources with "hokkien pop." You're correct that Taiwanese pop is also used to refer to Taiwan's collective music industry including Mandopop but there are more sources that refer to it as Taiwanese pop. The already cited articles on this page also use Taiwanese pop (and even Hoklo pop). I don't see any Hokkien pop.
Among the 5 sources:
1. In "From Tian'anmen to Times Square...," Hokkien pop is used in context of language only. "Mandarin or Hokkien pop tunes," not the mononyms "Mandopop or Hokkien pop."
2. In "Cries of Joy, Songs of Sorrow" - also used in context of language only. "Mandarin and Hokkien pop records, not "Mandopop and Hokkien pop." The same source refers to this music as a single mononym "Taiyupop" throughout the entire section where "Hokkien pop records" appears in. The section is titled "1932: The Birth of Taiwan's Pop Music" (p31).
3. "The Oxford Handbook of Dance and the Popular Screen" calls it "Hokkien pop," next to what they call "Mandarin pop" and not "Mandopop."
In total, I see at 2, at most 3, sources that can be used. In fact, from regular Google Search results I find "Taiyupop" used more often in articles (from news, academic, and government sites). "Hokkien pop" comes up mostly in streaming and illegal download sites. So there is another alternative, Taiyupop.
I am not hell bent on using "Taiwanese" just for the sake of the word, it's just that "Hokkien pop" strikes me as a completely out-of-the-blue and alien term; this has always been popularly known as Taiwanese pop or some shortened derivative like T/Tai/Taiyu for as long as I can remember. I see that Hokkien pop might be a popular term among Singaporeans online but it refers to the Hokkien music in Singapore. Again, I am now open to Hokkien pop if the core focus of this page isn't about the music in Taiwan (with its specific history ad nauseam), even if they take up a significant portion of it. Taiwanese pop just hasn't been known as Hokkien pop for most part. (EDIT 2: On Chen Jin Lang's page, he is touted as the "King of Hokkien Pop" in the first paragraph. But when users visit this page and they find that it's ever so Taiwan-centric, that it's also known as "T-pop," etc, does that not strike you as odd too?)
Re: Taiwanese language and aboriginals. Unfortunately, Taiwanese is already used as the common term for Taiwanese Hokkien language. This is probably more suitable for a separate debate in the Taiwanese Hokkien or aboriginal language pages, other than that there's consistency again. Snow009 (talk) 18:15, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Timmyshin, this is the unambiguous, common name of the topic. Unlike today, in the past the Hokkien and Amoy dialect music industry has not been so Taiwan-centric, for example until the 70s there was a good amount of output from Hong Kong and then later from Southeast Asia until the 1980s. That being said this article is currently needs more information added about those regions. There may be a conflict between the terms used in Chinese and English, but this would be resolved by using the more common name in English per WP:USEENGLISH. There appears to be distinction made in English literature between "Taiwanese music" and "Taiyu Music". "Taiwanese pop was sung in local dialect, mostly with enka-style vocalisation, and was popular mainly among the working class" from World Music: Latin & North America, Caribbean, India, Asia. That being said there might be a need at some point to split the concepts of "Taiwanese Hokkien popular music" and "Hokkien pop" or something, considering they are separate. I don't really like the idea of putting "-pop" on things in the same sense. On a side note if there is a commonly used name, there's no need to avoid offending people, for instance why do we use "Cantonese" if there are Hakka and Teochew in HK and Guangdong or "Hokkien" is spoken by on half of Hokkien province.--Prisencolin (talk) 21:25, 18 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I also oppose to my original request on the condition that a distinction is made and that Taiyu is not the core of the article. Taiyu music (or however we call it) should be under the umbrella that is Hokkien pop (or again, however we call it), because not all Hokkien pop is Taiyu music like this page currently suggests. Snow009 (talk) 00:42, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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