Talk:Horace Greeley/Archive 1

Untitled

The New Yorker as we know it wasn't founded by Horace Greeley, although maybe he founded some other paper with that name. This link to New Yorker is to a really stubby stub. The New Yorker article is no prize either. Ortolan88

It was just a paper, not a magazine. If it was no relation to the current New Yorker, best just to leave it out rather than try and disambiguate it, I guess. -- Someone else 06:21 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

It should perhaps be mentioned that the town of Greeley Colorado was named after Horace Greeley. As I understand it, somebody took his advice of going west and founded a town on the ideal.

New Hampshire?

This article shouldn't be under WP:NH because he is more of a New Yorker than a New Hampshirite. --EvaGears 16:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

He was born and raised and went to school in NH and has a historic site for him in NH, although he probably should have the WP:NY tag as well. Cooljeanius 13:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Republican Heading

The Republican Heading does not have any references of note, and should either be supported by outside sources or removed. 75.182.125.79 (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Horace Greeley

What is Horace Greeley's role during the Gilded age? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.233.101.210 (talk) 03:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

The town of Greeley, PA is also named after Horace Greeley. He was an investor in a Utopia type project in the mid-1800s called The Sylvannia Association. There is a somewhat inaccurate historical marker placed in Greeley explaining the story of the commune. After the project failed, the area supposedly became known as "that Greeley place" and the later town became known as Greeley.204.186.88.252 13:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Greely

he didn't break with the radicals. The liberal GOP was radical. The regular GOP was moderate conservative

Hjalmar Schacht

"The full name of Nazi economist Hjalmar Schacht was "Hjalmar Horace Greeley Schacht"."

This phrase eludes me. Like several readers who are looking for something else, I caught this phrase in an unordered list on the page. Not having the time to research deep enough into this issue, I simply remain with the feeling "Horace was connected with the Nazis"(, which I personally assume and thoroughly hope to be wrong).

So, please, have somebody either discredit and remove the statement, or else put a footnote at the end so that we may read the justification. Thank you.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:Contributions/{[[User:{24.75.194.50 (talk · contribs)|{24.75.194.50 (talk · contribs)]] ([[User talk:{24.75.194.50 (talk · contribs)|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/{24.75.194.50 (talk · contribs)|contribs]] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/whois/gateway.py?lookup=true&ip={24.75.194.50 (talk · contribs)

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Mark Twain

I remember seeing Mark Twain use Horace Greeley's name often in his works, particularly short stories often as someone a character would be corresponding with, and think that would be something good to mention on Greeley's cultural references section, but I'm not sure how to put it. –jqubed (Talk | Contributions) 19:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Horace Greeley was a favorite foil of Mark Twain's. He is mentioned at least twice in Roughin' It. First in connection to an anecdote told repeatedly about him, (Chapter 20, see below) and, secondly, as the intended recipient of a letter written by a man increasingly plauged with schizophrenia and whose letters are increasingly unintelligible (chapter 70).

In the first story, an example of repetition as humor, the narrator tells of coming west on the Overland Stage and how at almost every stop someone would board the stage and, after awhile, offer to tell the same stale anecdote about Horace Greeley. (Sources: Autobiography of Mark Twain, edited by Charles Neider, chapter 28; Roughing it, chapter 20). The following is quoted from chapter 20 of Roughing it:

"On the western verge of the Desert we halted a moment at Ragtown. It consisted of one log house and is not set down on the map.

This reminds me of a circumstance. Just after we left Julesburg, on the Platte, I was sitting with the driver, and he said:

'I can tell you a most laughable thing indeed, if you would like to listen to it. Horace Greeley went over this road once. When he was leaving Carson City he told the driver, Hank Monk, that he had an engagement to lecture at Placerville and was very anxious to go through quick. Hank Monk cracked his whip and started off at an awful pace. The coach bounced up and down in such a terrific way that it jolted the buttons all off of Horace's coat, and finally shot his head clean through the roof of the stage, and then he yelled at Hank Monk and begged him to go easier—said he warn't in as much of a hurry as he was awhile ago. But Hank Monk said, 'Keep your seat, Horace, and I'll get you there on time'—and you bet you he did, too, what was left of him!'

A day or two after that we picked up a Denver man at the cross roads, and he told us a good deal about the country and the Gregory Diggings. He seemed a very entertaining person and a man well posted in the affairs of Colorado. By and by he remarked:

'I can tell you a most laughable thing indeed, if you would like to listen to it. Horace Greeley went over this road once. When he was leaving Carson City he told the driver, Hank Monk, that he had an engagement to lecture at Placerville and was very anxious to go through quick. Hank Monk cracked his whip and started off at an awful pace. The coach bounced up and down in such a terrific way that it jolted the buttons all off of Horace's coat, and finally shot his head clean through the roof of the stage, and then he yelled at Hank Monk and begged him to go easier—said he warn't in as much of a hurry as he was awhile ago. But Hank Monk said, 'Keep your seat, Horace, and I'll get you there on time!'—and you bet you he did, too, what was left of him!'

At Fort Bridger, some days after this, we took on board a cavalry sergeant, a very proper and soldierly person indeed. From no other man during the whole journey, did we gather such a store of concise and well- arranged military information. It was surprising to find in the desolate wilds of our country a man so thoroughly acquainted with everything useful to know in his line of life, and yet of such inferior rank and unpretentious bearing. For as much as three hours we listened to him with unabated interest. Finally he got upon the subject of trans- continental travel, and presently said:

'I can tell you a very laughable thing indeed, if you would like to listen to it. Horace Greeley went over this road once. When he was leaving Carson City he told the driver, Hank Monk, that he had an engagement to lecture at Placerville and was very anxious to go through quick. Hank Monk cracked his whip and started off at an awful pace. The coach bounced up and down in such a terrific way that it jolted the buttons all off of Horace's coat, and finally shot his head clean through the roof of the stage, and then he yelled at Hank Monk and begged him to go easier—said he warn't in as much of a hurry as he was awhile ago. But Hank Monk said, 'Keep your seat, Horace, and I'll get you there on time!'—and you bet you he did, too, what was left of him!'

When we were eight hours out from Salt Lake City a Mormon preacher got in with us at a way station—a gentle, soft-spoken, kindly man, and one whom any stranger would warm to at first sight. I can never forget the pathos that was in his voice as he told, in simple language, the story of his people's wanderings and unpitied sufferings. No pulpit eloquence was ever so moving and so beautiful as this outcast's picture of the first Mormon pilgrimage across the plains, struggling sorrowfully onward to the land of its banishment and marking its desolate way with graves and watering it with tears. His words so wrought upon us that it was a relief to us all when the conversation drifted into a more cheerful channel and the natural features of the curious country we were in came under treatment. One matter after another was pleasantly discussed, and at length the stranger said:

'I can tell you a most laughable thing indeed, if you would like to listen to it. Horace Greeley went over this road once. When he was leaving Carson City he told the driver, Hank Monk, that he had an engagement to lecture in Placerville, and was very anxious to go through quick. Hank Monk cracked his whip and started off at an awful pace. The coach bounced up and down in such a terrific way that it jolted the buttons all off of Horace's coat, and finally shot his head clean through the roof of the stage, and then he yelled at Hank Monk and begged him to go easier—said he warn't in as much of a hurry as he was awhile ago. But Hank Monk said, 'Keep your seat, Horace, and I'll get you there on time!'—and you bet you bet you he did, too, what was left of him!'

Ten miles out of Ragtown we found a poor wanderer who had lain down to die. He had walked as long as he could, but his limbs had failed him at last. Hunger and fatigue had conquered him. It would have been inhuman to leave him there. We paid his fare to Carson and lifted him into the coach. It was some little time before he showed any very decided signs of life; but by dint of chafing him and pouring brandy between his lips we finally brought him to a languid consciousness. Then we fed him a little, and by and by he seemed to comprehend the situation and a grateful light softened his eye. We made his mail-sack bed as comfortable as possible, and constructed a pillow for him with our coats. He seemed very thankful. Then he looked up in our faces, and said in a feeble voice that had a tremble of honest emotion in it:

'Gentlemen, I know not who you are, but you have saved my life; and although I can never be able to repay you for it, I feel that I can at least make one hour of your long journey lighter. I take it you are strangers to this great thorough fare, but I am entirely familiar with it. In this connection I can tell you a most laughable thing indeed, if you would like to listen to it. Horace Greeley——'

I said, impressively:

"Suffering stranger, proceed at your peril. You see in me the melancholy wreck of a once stalwart and magnificent manhood. What has brought me to this? That thing which you are about to tell. Gradually but surely, that tiresome old anecdote has sapped my strength, undermined my constitution, withered my life. Pity my helplessness. Spare me only just this once, and tell me about young George Washington and his little hatchet for a change."

We were saved. But not so the invalid. In trying to retain the anecdote in his system he strained himself and died in our arms.

I am aware, now, that I ought not to have asked of the sturdiest citizen of all that region, what I asked of that mere shadow of a man; for, after seven years' residence on the Pacific coast, I know that no passenger or driver on the Overland ever corked that anecdote in, when a stranger was by, and survived. Within a period of six years I crossed and recrossed the Sierras between Nevada and California thirteen times by stage and listened to that deathless incident four hundred and eighty-one or eighty-two times. I have the list somewhere. Drivers always told it, conductors told it, landlords told it, chance passengers told it, the very Chinamen and vagrant Indians recounted it. I have had the same driver tell it to me two or three times in the same afternoon. It has come to me in all the multitude of tongues that Babel bequeathed to earth, and flavored with whiskey, brandy, beer, cologne, sozodont, tobacco, garlic, onions, grasshoppers—everything that has a fragrance to it through all the long list of things that are gorged or guzzled by the sons of men. I never have smelt any anecdote as often as I have smelt that one; never have smelt any anecdote that smelt so variegated as that one. And you never could learn to know it by its smell, because every time you thought you had learned the smell of it, it would turn up with a different smell. Bayard Taylor has written about this hoary anecdote, Richardson has published it; so have Jones, Smith, Johnson, Ross Browne, and every other correspondence-inditing being that ever set his foot upon the great overland road anywhere between Julesburg and San Francisco; and I have heard that it is in the Talmud. I have seen it in print in nine different foreign languages; I have been told that it is employed in the inquisition in Rome; and I now learn with regret that it is going to be set to music. I do not think that such things are right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.184.118.123 (talk) 16:48, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Greeley, Texas

Is there such a place? If no one can provide evidence of Greeley, Texas, I suggest deleting the reference.

Go West, young man, go West.

According to Ralph Keyes in his book Nice Guys Finish Seventh, Greeley was not the actual source of this quote. These words originated with John Babson Lane Soule, editor of the Terre Haute Daily Express. Soule wrote that even Greeley could give no better advice than this. Greeley was promptly credited with the saying. In an attempt to correct the record Greeley reprinted the editorial and added "The expression of this sentiment has been attributed to the editor of the Tribune [ie: Greeley himself] erroneously, but so fully does he concur in the advice it gives that he endorses most heartily the epigrammatic advice of the Terre Haute Express and joins in saying, 'Go West, young man, go West.'" Khajidha (talk) 22:41, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

the point is that Greeley popularized the slogan and was always associated with it. Rjensen (talk) 09:42, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I've tweaked the discussion of this to make that clearer.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:02, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

You stole my newspaper

In the that Greenly cried out to Whitelaw Reid either needs a citation or needs to be deleted due to foul languenge. 71.180.171.44 (talk) 14:25, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Deleting the statement that Whitelaw Reid was editor of the Herald. Whitelaw Reid did gain financial control of the Tribune, but he was not the owner of the Herald at the time of Greeley's death. The Herald and the Tribune were competitor papers at the time and Reid could not have worked for both, much less have been the editor. The editor of the Herald at the time of Greeley's was James Gordon Bennet, Jr. Whitelaw Reid's son, Ogden Mills Reid, bought the Herald many decades later and combined the papers into the Herald Tribune.

References:

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/people/reid-whitelaw.html

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/412447/New-York-Herald

Duncan, Bingham. 1975. Whitelaw Reid: journalist, politician, diplomat. Athens: University of Georgia Press.Emdupuis (talk) 13:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Omitted information?

This article should probably mention Rehoboth (Chappaqua, New York). Apparently Greeley invested a great deal of time and effort into it, and thought he "would be remembered for it if nothing else".--ɱ (talk · vbm) 01:08, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I've added it as a see also link.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:17, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

That's okay, I guess. Ideally it would go in his biography, though perhaps it's not important enough? He built an NRHP, I'd say that alone is worth mentioning.--ɱ (talk · vbm) 22:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

If you can find a well-sourced, SHORT, way of including it, go ahead. This is a FA. Sources should be of high quality.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:13, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

You clearly aren't at all familiar with my work. I'll do some digging.--ɱ (talk · vbm) 01:00, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

In addition to Rehoboth, we could also mention, and/or use the picture of, his house in Chappaqua, which has recently been renovated and used as a historical museum by the town of New Castle. I mean, he only lived there for the last 15 years of his life, pioneering the idea of suburban living. Daniel Case (talk) 19:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

That's another good point. I'll get to Rehoboth once I finish with Briarcliff Farms, feel free to add about Greeley House, otherwise I'll plan for that next.--ɱ (talk · vbm) 19:23, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I like the 1870 print, though possibly the margins could be trimmed. After all, that's Greeley in the foreground.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:25, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

My recent edit includes numerous grammar and punctuation fixes, rephrases to remove passive voice and other circumlocutory construction, and fixes to some redirected links.

I removed some pointless links, added some useful links, fixed some ref formatting and one error, removed some OT detail (details of Fourierism aren't needed here, nor a ballot-by-ballot history of the 1860 RNC).

I moved some out of place text (the passage about Greeley's support of Taylor belongs before his election to Congress, which resulted from it).

The description of Greeley's election to Congress was clearly garbled - it has been fixed. The Sixth Ward Whig committee could nominate Greeley, not elect him. Per the CBD, Jackson was removed in April 1848, not November.

I re-orged the intro section. A single para summarizing his life, three paras of concise narrative, and a para about his personality, which is surely one of the most important facts of his life.

If there are specific objections to all this work, I would like to see them.

(I note the assertion that Greeley was not opposed to slavery, only to slavery expansion. This is absurd. He may not have been an outright abolitionist in the 1830s, but he was by 1850, when he denounced the Compromise of 1850, and certainly during the Civil War.)

Rich Rostrom (Talk) 07:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

This article recently passed FAC which is a consensus procedure, One of the criteria is that the pros ebe very good and a consensus of people so found. The links were examined and any over linking or under linking of note were addressed so you perhaps would do it differently but what is there now is not incorrect. Saying that he was to that extent outspoken against slavery would not be true whatever he may have believed personally. His letter following succession saying to let the south go is a strong indication that he simply wanted to live in a country without slavery whether the south was a part of it was in his view purely optimal. Regarding the Congressional election I'm simply going by the sources whatever you may think is absurd or not if you have a link to an actual election that really happened with Greeley as candidate that year I would be glad to agree. There are other instances again it's the same the sources say what they say and if you have better sources then bring them forward and let's talk about it.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:16, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Reformer

All the reliable sources agree that Greeley was very famous as a reformer for multiple causes. The text neglects the details so I suggest we add the following two well-sourced passages:
1--in the lede) Reformers nicknamed his newspaper "The Great Moral Organ" because it endorsed so many reform causes, including women's rights, temperance, anti-slavery, high tariffs, vegetarianism and labor unions.[ref] Catherine C. Mitchell (1995). Margaret Fuller's New York Journalism: A Biographical Essay and Key Writings. Univ. of Tennessee Press. p. 125.[/ref] .......and
2) Greeley used his papers to promulgate a wide range of reforms.[ref]Mitchell Snay, Horace Greeley and the politics of reform in nineteenth-century America (Rowman & Littlefield, 2011).[/ref] They included abolitionism, trade unionism, vegetarianism, and spiritualism plus land reform,[ref]Roy Marvin Robbins, "Horace Greeley: Land Reform and Unemployment, 1837-1862." Agricultural History 7.1 (1933): 18-41. in JSTOR[/ref] woman's rights,[ref]Paula Kopacz, "Feminist at the" Tribune": Margaret Fuller as Professional Writer." in by Joel A. Myerson, ed. Studies in the American Renaissance (1991) pp: 119-139.[/ref] temperance, protective tariffs[ref]J.R. Commons, Horace Greeley and the Working Class Origins of the Republican Party (1909) online.[/ref] and improved farming techniques, as well as a utopian version of socialism.[ref]Charles Sotheran, Horace Greeley and other pioneers of American Socialism (1915) online[/ref] Rjensen (talk) 13:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

looks good though I may tweak the prose. What about that 1915 source? Does it stand up?--Wehwalt (talk) 14:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

The 1915 sources is useful because it consists primarily of long dated excerpt from editorials and statements by Greeley re socialism, held together by brief introductions that tell some of the context. Those introductions are largely based on a standard biography by Parton. It's entirely on line free. Rjensen (talk) 14:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

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Further reading and External links

Things sometimes "creep in" so would someone look at the "Further reading" (15 links) and "External links" (10 links) for possible integration or trimming? With exceptions 3 to 5 links (four to five as possible exceptions) seems to be a "reasonable number" but 25 links starts looking like link farming. Otr500 (talk) 22:11, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

More links were added to the "Further reading" section. "IF" there are already concerns of too many then this should be discussed instead of adding more that would certainly warrant a tag and possible declassification. If the links are deemed so important then possibly a two for one exchange of any not so relevant. Otr500 (talk) 23:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

re the books: Greeley led a very complex life and hundreds of studies are in print. I checked each one of these titles to see that it covers a unique aspect and each has been recommended in the major biographies and bibliographies. Further a nearby library --unless it is a major university--will only have a few books and this list helps the reader who want to do further reading. Everyone else can ignore the list at the end of the page. Rjensen (talk) 02:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

• Reply: I am not trying to be difficult nor engage in an edit war. There were two valid concerns. You capitulated in one area, which is not bad, but added to an already long list (now with 22 entries) in another. I reverted the additions only because the list is already too long showing link farming and you just added more to the catalog. Assertions that the additions are important and that others, that may not like the already long list, can just ignore them is not adequate reasoning. "IF" the additions are that important then either a)- trim the list so additions will not be excessive, b)- incorporate the additions into the article, or c)- start a discussion to get others involved for some compromise. The list is excessive now because every editor that added content deemed them "important". The next editor that adds one more will feel the same and then an article gets tagged and possibly delisted. Surely that is not a goal? I am sure that there is no editing deadline that prevented a dialog or honoring BRD. The burden of proof is on the editor wishing to add material and should keep in mind within reason there are limits.

By-the-way; the only way that someone can invoke "ignoring the rules" is ultimately with consensus, and local consensus does not override the more broad community-wide consensus. Also, links in the "Further reading" section are subject to "External link guidelines" (Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#Further_reading) so please note: "This page in a nutshell: External links in an article can be helpful to the reader, but they should be kept minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article.", but I am sure you know this and maybe you will help out. Thank you, Otr500 (talk) 06:07, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Not all of the guidelines and policies that you've linked are relevant here. For instance, WP:ELMIN has to do with linking to one or more official websites of the subject of the article: "Wikipedia does not attempt to document or provide links to every part of the subject's web presence or provide readers with a handy list of all social networking sites. Complete directories lead to clutter and to placing undue emphasis on what the subject says." WP:LINKFARM warns that long lists of ELs "can dwarf articles", but that doesn't seem to have happened here. MOS:FURTHER defines a "Further reading" section as "an optional bulleted list, usually alphabetized, of a reasonable number of publications", but does not specify any maximum number that is reasonable. Examination of other FAs such as W. E. B. Du Bois, Alfred Russel Wallace, Hungarian Revolution of 1956, Oklahoma City bombing, and Influenza suggests that the community-wide consensus regarding this standard is fairly elastic.

The links in this article seem "meritable, and directly relevant to the article"; the only question is whether they are minimal. I would think that Wehwalt and Rjensen, as the primary authors of this article, are in the best position to make that judgement. Ewulp (talk) 01:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Being prudent do you think 22 is "minimal" especially without some examination? I agree that the "Further reading" section may need to be longer in some articles and that "External links should be very relatively shorter (3 to 5) but the reasoning I provided above (to use some in the article or other options) can be used to restrict unbridled adding and clutter.

The reason I do not like to just delete or hide a number of links and possibly get into a long battle, that will also likely result in some trimming anyway, is that: a)- I may not know enough about the subject to try to discern which to keep, b)- it is better if those that regularly edit (or watch) an article make these decisions, c)- I am not doing this to get into battles or edit wars but to correct often times incremental additions that result in article degradation, d)- it is an area (appendices) I have been working in for years but never noticed that GA and FA articles also need looking at and possibly correcting. Look at the "Books by Greeley" section that is normally placed in the "Works" section., and e)- I do not want to "tag" a GA or FA article unless absolutely necessary or have edit wars or other protracted battles that can also degrade an article. I have not looked at the articles you provided but have found that oftentimes incremental additions are overlooked and that many FA articles do not go through any further vetting process usually until they are so degraded someone finally takes action. I don't know how long the list is but I have run across many "Formerly FA" articles.

You stated: "WP:LINKFARM warns that long lists of ELs "can dwarf articles", but that doesn't seem to have happened here.", but I am sure it did and several "External links" were trimmed. To me this was a needed improvement but I still have concerns with the "Further reading" section. "Community-wide consensus regarding this standard is fairly elastic" is probably true also but length can also be a result of things just being overlooked, or other reasons, and still subjected to article consensus on things that do not go against community consensus. I am just stating there needs to be a limit where enough is enough. At the start there were 25 links, and trimming plus adding equals 22, which to me is still too many.

Just defending that your edits are important or necessary may be correct but adding to a list I think too long without any consideration (examination) of relevance or size is not (to me) adequate justification. If you care to look at this with the consideration that 22 "may" or "could" be excessive, and possibly agree to review them, then I would be happy to leave this in your hands and just check back in. If you are too busy we can look into other areas of dispute resolution. Maybe some other editors may feel that 22 is appropriate in this instance or possibly that 10 would be enough. Thanks, Otr500 (talk) 16:35, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Meritable, and directly relevant to the article

I missed the comments per @Ewulp: because the were aligned with previous comments. The comments state: "The links in this article seem "meritable, and directly relevant to the article"; the only question is whether they are minimal.", and support that the "primary authors" of this article, are in the best position to make that judgement. The comments appear to have been made at 20:26 after the removal of two links, because they were "already in bibliography", made at 18:59 and 19:00 by the same editor. The comments are actually in line with my comments. Since two were removed that means there was an excess and a need to review this with an open mind to article improvement. As I stated I don't have a problem with "primary Authors" looking into this. What I don't want there to be a thought or assumption that there is ownership. In fact, I think there should be more open-mindedness and less "battles" on valid concerns.

Some statistics: There was a high of 32 links in the "Futher reading" and "External links" that is currently 23. I would say this is a good thing. Thank you, Otr500 (talk) 18:51, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Recent lead edits

A recent edit to the lead states, "He endlessly promoted utopian reforms such as socialism, vegetarianism, agrarianism, feminism, and temperance, while hiring the best talent he could find.". Greeley firm on some things, not so firm on others, and yet wishy-washy on others. Greeley did espouse utopian reforms, socialism, feminism and agrarianism but his stance concerning being a vegetarian is questioned as to the point of endlessly promoting it.

It was written that he was a one-time vegetarian (page 77). There is supported content "Soon after his move to New York City, Greeley met Mary Young Cheney. Both were living at a boarding house run on the diet principles of Sylvester Graham, eschewing meat, alcohol, coffee, tea, and spices, as well as abstaining from the use of tobacco.", but there is also "Greeley was subscribing to Graham's principles at the time, and to the end of his life rarely ate meat.". The words "endlessly promoted" does not seem to be sourced, certainly not concerning being a vegetarian, so needs to be corrected. Otr500 (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

he was a member of the American Vegetarian Society and the local society. the text says that he promoted lots of utopian reforms his entire life, not that he promoted each one of them every day of his life. He moved through various types of vegetarianism (Grahamism and other versions) and "promote" for a journalist means giving them space in his paper and talking them up with people--we don't have his menus but it is said there was no meat or coffee in his home but there were eggs. see Adam D. Shprintzen (2013). The Vegetarian Crusade: The Rise of an American Reform Movement, 1817-1921. UNC Press Books. p. 229. https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1558499113

Christopher B. Daly - 2012 - ‎says he was "a tireless advocate for reform who operated as a party of one. Promoting his program of temperance...etc" I think "endlessly promoted" is a good paraphrase of "a tireless advocate for reform". Rjensen (talk) 14:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Reply: "Endlessly" would be a Synonym and a "good paraphrase of" "a tireless (endless) advocate for reform" but that is not all there is in the sentence. Breaking down the various "utopian reforms" he advocated for at some points, as an example of those he "endless supported or advocated for", looks like synthesis. The first source you provided states that Greeley's wife (a strict vegetarian) would not allow her husband to eat meat or drink coffee in the house, and that he was sympathetic to the vegetarian cause. Apparently he did eat meat: just not at home. Since he did eat meat he was actually a pescatarian but that word wasn't around during his time. Giving the impression that Greeley was a vegetarian (even if he supported it) is presenting a point that does not appear to be supported by sources. Unless that whole sentence is supported somewhere it would be better presented as "an endless advocate for reform" without the superfluous additions that can be individually covered in the article. Otr500 (talk) 12:04, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

The statement does not say he practiced certain things, but that he promoted them through his newspaper-- he wrote endless editorials ( every day, that is) many of which promoted one or another different reform. He also hired prominent writers who were advocates of various reforms, such as socialism. There's nothing original here – all of the reliable sources emphasize that he did that throughout his newspaper career. Historians of vegetarianism always list him as a promoter, and he was active at the national and local vegetarian organizations. He publicly ate at a vegetarian establishment. For a highly visible public figure, that is active promotion of a utopian cause. My children tell me that the younger generation in 2018 has a whole range of attitudes toward vegetarianism, and apparently there was a range as well in the early 19th century. Grahamism seems to be related to the graham cracker. The Seventh-day Adventists developed a breakfast cereal industry designed to keep people away from the typical American heavy on the bacon breakfast. Socialism is another interesting example, with a very wide range of possibilities in those days--I'm not sure how many of Karl Marx's 300 paid contributions implicitly advocated socialism-- I've not gotten around to reading them! But the issue is not Greeley's actual menu every day, or whether he somehow practiced socialism, but how he used his high visibility, and is very influential newspaper, to promote multiple utopian causes. Rjensen (talk) 12:42, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

He did print a lot of material but I still cannot see the need or want to include "endlessly" (or tirelessly) promoted---- with an inclusive breakdown of causes or beliefs he supported or wrote about, that is just not supported by source. Being a "a tireless advocate for reform" is open to interpretation with further exploration in the article body and supported by source right? Breaking "advocate for reform" down to include a list, presenting something that doesn't appear to be accurate and needing a tag, can be improved.

You seem dead set that your chosen words are the best and argumentative that leaving out one word (endlessly) would somehow not convey whatever you are trying to present. I do not understand this and think we may need to move on to dispute resolution. Thank you, Otr500 (talk) 19:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

the difference is that i rely heavily on the reliable sources. Rjensen (talk) 03:33, 29 July 2018 (UTC)