Talk:Huo Yuanjia/Archive 1

Death by poisoning?

I have just removed the addition of info that Huo's death was due to "poisoning by the Japanese over a period of time". If anyone can find sources to back this up, feel free to add the information back in. — Kimchi.sg | Talk 04:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Huo Yuanjia was poisoned by the Japanese via invited tea drinking. The Russian, French and British were surely sore losers but it was the Japanese who could not admit defeat. One could say it was fear or politically induced, largely due to his agreed involvement in China's military training. This posed as a threat to the rising Japanese powers which eventually invaded and caused mass destruction and terror in China. Thus here is another good question, 1910: Could China have still had a chance to hinder the oppressions to come had Huo Yuanjia not been poisoned? -- 155.245.123.127 22:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC) F. Chan 19/03/2006.

Ah, I notice that the source of this story appear to be Chin Woo Athletic Association. I don't think this is acceptable as a verified source. -- Vapour 15:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is not acceptable as a verified source. The World Chin Woo Federation has a different version of history. (website temporarily down). jaotsu 128.32.147.171 22:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Martial arts serves only to train one's mind and body. The political situation during that time in Shanghi and China are beyond one man's reach. Though he could have reinforced the nationalistic feeling in China, it is doubtful that Huo Yuanjia would be able to stop the attack on Shanghi. -- 24.68.130.0 15:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yar there seems to be extensive vandalism in this page and silly POVishness. -- 68.126.205.129 01:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The poisoning by the Japanese is an unsubstantiated rumor spread by those who have ulterior motives other than reporting unbiased facts. A few Chinese and some of his descendents still desperately cling to this idea, simply because they desperately wish to believe it. In reality, the evidence indicates the poisoning theory is merely a fabrication. Nobody know for sure not even his descendents. If there were actual witnesses to the crime, then his death would not be a mystery. -- Jaotsu 18:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The reason why the poisoning by some Japanese is an unsubstantiated rumor is that there is no positive proof or evidence to validate this rumor. How do people know he was 'secretly' poisoned? So far from my research, the poison rumor is NOT verifiable. What is verifiable is the use of arsenic to treat tuberculosis during the early 1900's was common in China and Europe. -- Huo Xin 00:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC) Another rumor that has been propagated without facts, was that Huo fought the Judo team and broke all of their hands including the master's. He then attended a peace-making dinner given by the Japanese Judo wrestlers, where he was given a medication by a Japanese doctor containing poison. This ridiculous rumor has been disproven. How can the Judo team eat using chopsticks when all their hands are broken? Who reported that he was given medication by the Japanese doctor? -- Huo Xin 05:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Huo was poisoned is a known fact written down not only by Huo's students, e.g. Mr. Chen Gong Zhe, a student of Huo Yuan Jia in Shanghai whose family contributed significantly to Jin Wu Athletic Association in his book '精武五十年史', published in Hong Kong in 1957 and reprinted in 2002, but also in the relocation of Huo and his wife tombs in 1989, in which his bone pelvis bones were discovered to have black spots and tested to contain poison. Please refer to this link. He was treated in Shanghai Red Cross Hospital for 2 weeks and passed away, and the doctors at the Shanghai Public Concession Hospital confirmed his medicine issued by the Japanese doctor Akino, which went back to Japan after Huo was submitted to hospital. -- Karolus 20070608 84.75.252.132 20:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

It is commonly known that arsenic is used in Asian medicines. Investigators at the U.S. National Fish and Wildlife Forensics Laboratory report that they have found potentially toxic levels of arsenic and mercury in Chinese herbal balls. Herbal balls are a mixture of medicinal herbs and honey and are dissolved in warm wine or water and then drunk as a tea. The investigators analyzed the balls as part of their effort to prevent the importation of products from endangered species. They found that the mercury content in the 32 balls tested varied between 7.8 and 621.3 mg per ball while the arsenic content varied between 0.1 and 36.6 mg. The most contaminated preparation was An Gong Niu Huang Wan from the Tung Jen Tang Pharmaceutical Factory in Nanjing. These balls contained between 3.21 and 36.6 mg of arsenic and between 80.7 and 621.3 mg of mercury, most likely in the form of sulfides. The investigators warn that chronic poisoning has been reported in people ingesting as little as 10 mg per day of arsenic sulfide and among people ingesting approximately 260 mg per day of mercury sulfide. Espinoza, Edgard O., et al. Arsenic and mercury in traditional Chinese herbal balls. The New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 333, No. 12, September 21, 1995, pp. 803-04. -- Huo Xin 23:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Mizongquan

Is the family style of mizongquan the same thing as mizongluohan that this article links to? There are quite a few Chinese styles that share the same name, or similar names that are quite different from each other and unrelated. I can't be too sure of this. (also the spelling as my jhong is terrible!) -- 202.147.43.82 22:53, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Was this an actual event?

"The 2006 Jet Li film Fearless (Huo Yuan Jia), described an event that took place on September 14, 1910. According to the film, this day is one of the most significant date in Huo's life. Ever since ... " This refers to the movie Fearless, but did this even actually take place? or was it purely fictional? If it were fictional then a clearer wording should be used because right now it sounds like the event actually took place, and was referred by the movie Fearless. I am currently trying to find some more info on this event. -- clragon 02:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

That was a fictional event from the film I think. There are a lot of colorful stories surrounding him in the public. For example someone told me that they read in a Chinese newspaper that Huo Yuanjia supposedly grabbed the Russian wrestler's wrist and threw him, but from what I've read, Huo only spoke with the Russian. If he really had a physical exchange, why didn't his great-grandson mention it in the interview? -- Shawnc 04:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem with interviewing his descendants is that some of them are trying to hype myths and legends regarding Huo Yuanjia. You will find that such interviews are unreliable sources of information since they over exaggerate the events in his life to benefit their own ulterior motives. Also at that time the press was well known to distort news in order to sell papers, so even newspaper articles must be examined with a degree of skepticism. -- Jaotsu 17:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

What Jaotsu said is wrong. The myths and legends regarding Huo did not begin by the Huo family. Huo Yuan Jia's life was well published in the 1910s, and dozens of novels were written on his life in 1910s and 1920s. There are two branches of Huo Yuan Jia's descendants. One branch still lives in Xiao Nan He village, Tianjin, and the other branch lives in Indonesia. Karolus 2007/2/12 -- 138.190.32.7 13:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The 2006 Jet Li film "Fearless" is a fictionalized story about Huo Yuanjia's life. Like all movies about famous people, they are never 100% accurate. Movies are made for entertainment not for history lessons. Just like the Bruce Lee movie "Fists of Fury" (Chinese Connection) used distorted history about the life of Liu Zheng Sheng to make the movie more entertaining to the audience. Huo Xin 03:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Verifiable story in martial arts?

He "had caught one chance to end the fight, he stopped his one opportunity to deliver a death blow to his opponent realizing that he has caused enough deaths, the match ends anonymously, but Tanaka has realized who the true master of fighting was". This is a writing more fitting for a movie script than an encyclopedia. -- Vapour 15:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I've marked this article as needing a cleanup. We need to clear out or verify all this nonsense that the Jet Li film is generating. -Romas- -- 67.149.176.29 05:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I will be making cleanup changes to clear out all nonsense and verify all the facts. -- Huo Xin 21:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Are all the information true?

I would like to know if all the facts and information are true and unbiased as it is important for people to know the truth. some people might even use this website for their research on huo yuan jia and in the end they use wrong and inaccurate information. so i like to double-check if all this information are accurate. - thank you. -- 220.255.46.84 13:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I have been researching as much as possible in both Asian libraries and on the internet. There are many rumors about his life that some people want to put down as fact which are totally untrue. I have been busy making corrections and removing any bias and correcting historic fallacies. According to what I have studied about his life and events, Huo Yuanjia would never be boastful and never demand anything. He would not brag about his skills - most of the myths and rumors you read about are perpetuated by the press and those who wish to make money regarding stories surrounding events in his life. He would never place blame on others or say or write anything bad about anyone regardless of whether it is true or if they deserved it. Huo Yuanjia believed that to gain superiority of one's self, this was the philosophy to follow and if everyone followed it, the country as a whole would prosper. This is a far cry from what you see in modern day China and what is being taught to the public as a whole. I believe if Huo Yuanjia was alive today, he would be very disappointed to see the state of martial arts and the failure of his teachings to students today. -- Jaotsu 03:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Historical events and corrections have been made to more accurately describe Huo Yuanjia's life. There has been incorrect and unproven rumors previously posted. These will be removed as found. Huo Xin 03:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Not Gregorian

China wasn't using the Gregorian calendar in 1910 (and not really until 1929) and their year numbering system was IIRC a bit haywire, so "this before that" is probably more reliable than "dates" (which are translations). -- 67.169.10.74 15:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Corrections made

People have been mixing myth, rumors, and unsubstantiated stories about Huo Yuan Jia. Corrections have been made to make his life history more accurate. -- Jaotsu 23:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Grammatical Correction

It read "a few months helping found..." Now reads "a few months after helping found..." -- 128.61.137.240 20:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC) Carsonc

You cannot learn to fight by yourself and his great humility

You cannot learn martial arts fighting just by doing forms. If you wish to learn to fight others successfully you need to practice daily with another person. Thus, Huo Yuanjia could not of practiced by himself secretly for 10 years and become a champion fighter. -- 128.32.147.171 22:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The exclusion of his Japanese tutor is historically inaccurate although his name may not be correct. Regarding the Russian fighter and the newspaper article, Huo Yuan Jia would never "demand" any thing. He would ask rather than demand because of his great and well known trait of humility. -- Jaotsu 00:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Phrases such as "No Dogs and Chinese Allowed" were widely used by the Europeans forcibly occupying territories in China

This is a myth, refuted many times over by Chinese academics. It's interesting to note that this "no dogs and ___" claim is made in regards to many ethnicities who have suffered second-class status during periods of history, for example the Ainu in Japan. -- 68.227.68.36 14:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

What you are saying is incorrect. You are misrepresenting the Chinese academics. Let me clarify this issue regarding this catch-phrase. It is a myth that the Japanese posted signs which said "No Dogs and Chinese Allowed" in Shanghai, but in reality, the phrase "No dogs and Chinese allowed" was widely used verbally by the Europeans forcibly occupying territories in China just like "Sick men of Asia". "Chinaman" and "Chink" were also commonly used terms to describe a person of Chinese ancestry. Such phrases and terms were very popular during the early 20th century to describe the exploited Chinese people. Fact: The phrase "No Dogs and Chinese Allowed" has it origins in what is now called Huangpu Park. It is located on the northern end of the Bund in Shanghai and stretches along Suzhou Creek. It was first established in 1886 as Public Garden, the first European style park in China designed by a Scottish gardener. It included a resting pavilion and a tennis court, and was specifically designed for use only by European foreigners living in Shanghai. Signs such as "The Gardens are reserved for the foreign community", and further down: "No dogs and bicycles are admitted" were posted on the entry gates to this park. These two rules have probably contributed to the birth of the simplistic (though in essence correct) catch phrase. The rumor is perpetuated by the 1972 Bruce Lee film "Fists of Fury" also known as "The Chinese Connection". The film is famous for the scene in which Chen Zhen is denied entry into a park bearing a sign stating "No Dogs and Chinese Allowed" which fictionally was posted by the Japanese. He kicked the offending sign in the air and broke it with a flying kick. In reality, no such sign was ever posted by the Japanese. It never existed. Fact: In Beijing's Forbidden Palace, there are two shops with the signs "Foreign Guests Only, Chinese Nationals Forbidden." -- Jaotsu 18:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Additional historic content added

I have included additional historic content. The story of Huo Yuanjia and the history of the Chin Woo Association was over simplified and excluded the political environment. The influence of the Tongmenghui, a secret society and underground resistance movement organized by Sun Yat-sen and Song Jiaoren in Tokyo, Japan, on 20 August 1905, and the financial support in the creation of the first Chin Woo center should not be excluded. -- Huo Xin 06:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the additions seem to much like political axe-grinding and legened polishing and less like sourced verifiable stories. -- Fire Star 火星 23:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The historic additions are verifiable and is an important part of the Chin Woo Assoc.'s history. The removal of these additions are political. The school's history can be verified from the June 1910, the Eastern Times newspaper as well as doing research on Tongmenghui history and their influence on China during the early 20th century. -- Huo Xin 22:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The Tongmenghui involvement is an integral part of the Chin Woo Association's history. Omitting this fact would be unethical and politically manipulative. -- Jaotsu 20:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed the Fearless reference from the death section. Not appropriate there. -- Jaotsu 19:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Keep the name consistent

About two thirds of the way through this article, the notation of the name switches from the pinyin notation "Huo Yuanjia" used in the article title to "Huo Yuan Jia". The notation should be consistent throughout and conform to the Wikipedia Chinese naming conventions. Should pinyin be used for all occurrences? -- 216.170.205.9 23:00, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I searched the article and tried to standardize all name references to "Huo Yuanjia". -- Jaotsu 23:52, 2 January 2007 (UTC)