Talk:Hutton Gibson/Archive 1

Jeopardy!

Until and unless it can be verified whether or not Hutton Gibson ever competed on Jeopardy!, the section about Gibson's purported appearance on the show should reflect the major discrepancy between the winnings claimed by Gibson ($20,000+) and the actual high score record for that era of the show ($11,110, set by Burns Cameron, who was the Grand Champion in 1965 and the show's record holder until the Alex Trebek era). User Getaway insists on reverting this portion of the article text to the following:

"Whether or not Hutton Gibson ever appeared on Jeopardy! will probably never be verifiable, as episodes from this era do not survive; winnings in the neighborhood of $20,000. However, the record of $11,110 set by Burns Cameron in 1964 was never broken during the Art Fleming era of the show."

This language is strange for two reasons. First, it leaves dangling the incomplete phrase "winnings in the neighborhood of $20,000." Second, it states Burns Cameron's record in non sequitor fashion, failing to link it logically to the issue of Hutton Gibson's claimed winnings. The language as I originally wrote it reads as follows:

Whether or not Hutton Gibson ever appeared on Jeopardy! will probably never be verifiable, as episodes from this era do not survive; winnings in the neighborhood of $20,000, however, are almost certainly an exaggeration, since the record of $11,110 set by Burns Cameron in 1964 was never broken during the Art Fleming era of the show.

Apparently the word user Getaway objects to is "exaggeration", since in his most recent revert he states:

"Those sources don't use that word. Gone."

My response to this is (1) The word "exaggeration" is neither an inaccurate nor a defamatory description of the process under examination here (i.e., Gibson's winnings as reported being impossibly large given what we know about the record from the era); and (2) if a replacement word for "exaggerate" would bring consensus, it would be preferable, but (3) I fail to see what synonym of "exaggerate" or rewording would have any different effect. The dictionary definition of "exaggerate" is "To represent as greater than is actually the case; overstate." The other possibility is that user Getaway believes that the deductive process—putting 2 and 2 together, as it were—constitutes original research, and that even so much as pointing out that only one of the possibilities could be true—either Hutton Gibson is the actual all-time Fleming-era Jeopardy! record-holder, or he is not—somehow constitutes an attack on the character of a living person. Suffice it to say, I do not share this view: I do not believe that an unresolved factual discrepancy reflects, negatively or otherwise, on the character of Hutton Gibson. Robert K S 23:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Once again, it is not your place to comment. The article has the facts based upon sources. Let the reader decide himself/herself. It is still your commentary, which is not acceptable. Also, it is original research. And finally, this is the bio of a Living Person. Now, someone somewhere stated that I am at my three revert limit. However, when it comes to the bio of a Living Person and the information is potentially defamatory, which is what you are doing when you state that he is "exaggerat[ing]". You add it back in and I will revert it.--Getaway 00:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I have reworded that section, which hopefully will be agreeable to both parties. Andy Saunders 00:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Getaway, I like your most recent version of that section. It looks and sounds much better than before. Andy Saunders 00:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, with some minor tweaking, Getaway's current version is satisfactory, especially insofar as it is grammatically coherent. Robert K S 00:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

"Grammatically coherent"!!! From someone that wants to be known as an expert on the winners of Jeopardy! Hilarious!--Getaway 02:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Getaway, let's not get personal here. Regardless of what you may think of Robert's credentials, the fact of the matter is that he is the maintainer of the Internet's largest archive of Jeopardy! episodes. Therefore, I see "wants to be known as..." as a personal attack on your fellow Wikipedian. Andy Saunders 18:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

No. Sorry, I am merely pointing what he stated. He wants to be known as an expert and have his opinion quoted on Wikipedia. He stated that and I repeated it. That is not a personal attacks. Good try though.--Getaway 00:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

User Getaway disagrees with inclusion of the modifier "1965 Grand Champion" for Burns Cameron, and has reverted this addition on the basis of it being unnecessary information. If Burns Cameron had his own article--and I am not arguing that he warrants one--then it might not be important to include it in the discussion of Hutton Gibson. But the fact that Hutton Gibson was reputedly a Grand Champion makes the fact that Cameron's total includes Grand Champion winnings makes it relevant to this article. I hope this explanation is sufficient to elucidate my reason for the minor addition of this small bit of information. Robert K S 12:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

To the editors involved in this disagreement- remember that content and POV disputes are not defamation, and the 3RR applies completely to this dispute. --64.132.163.178 17:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, Anon User. If anyone attempts to put in a potentially defamatory commentary in the bio of Living Person then the 3RR rule is out the window. If those attempts return then I will revert, even if I have to do it fourteen times in one day.--Getaway 00:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

No, Mr. Getaway, it is you who are wrong! The comment is not defamatory, it is a content or POV dispute. --19:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"Notable beliefs" perleeeeeeeeeeese --88.110.174.101 13:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Jeopardy or lawsuit?

• ...Gibson's father relocated the family to Australia in 1968, after his father won a work related injury lawsuit against New York Central after a seven day trial on February 14, 1968 where the jury awarded him $145,000. [1]
• Following a victory on the Jeopardy! game show, he moved his family to Australia in 1968,... [2]

This article and the "Mel Gibson" article appear to have contradictory statements. The other artilce is clearly sourced, while this article doesn't have a have listed reference. Should we report both assertions? -Will Beback · † · 00:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Will; if you check this talk page and the article's history, you will see there has been a good deal of discussion on this subject already. An edit by User:24.227.231.156 deleted the entire section of the article related to this subject on December 8, 2006. I have reverted back to the previous version of this article to restore the section this editor removed, and ask that others help to identify good changes that have been made since then and restore them individually. Robert K S 19:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for straightening that out. I hadn't seen any mention of hte lawsuit on this page. Cheers, -Will Beback · † · 21:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Jeopardy section

I see that this has been remove from the Mel article. we should probably do the same here since the sourcing is problematic. --Tom 14:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

A quick google search of "Hutton Gibson" AND Jeopardy yields 1,360 hits. This qualifies Hutton's winnings as "widely reported." Also, no references or citations have been provided that quote Hutton Gibson making any claims about winning Jeopardy. Therefore, the article should not include the phrase "Hutton Gibson claims" in reference to the Jeopardy winnings. Finally, the information about Burns Cameron has no place in this article. The issue is a supposed contradiction between Gibson's "claims" and Cameron's putative record. The reference cited for Cameron's record is an interview with Cameron at triviahalloffame.com [3]. Even if Cameron's claims are true (ie, that $11,110 is the record for the regular season of the Fleming shows), that doesn't necessary contradict that widely reported figure of Gibson's winnings because it does not include any bonus earnings for winning the Tournament of Champions (which both Cameron and Gibson won). If someone wants to provide a biography of Burns Cameron and celebrate his winnings, that person should write a wiki page for Cameron.Claisen 17:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

A crappy google search means sqwaut. What is your agenda here?? Please come clean, thanks, --Tom 19:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Figured out your agenda, never mind. --Tom 19:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

What the Google search on "Hutton Gibson Jeopardy" proves is:

• Wikipedia is the top source for information about Hutton Gibson's alleged appearance on Jeopardy!
• That Hutton Gibson was allegedly a Jeopardy! champion is a standard part of his bio [4] [5]
• That accounts differ about exactly how much money he won [6] [7]
• That there is no evidence anywhere on the Internet that Hutton Gibson was ever on the show... no photograph, no image of his name recorded in the NBC master books, no contemporary newspaper article or press release, nothing.

For it to be reported that Hutton Gibson was on Jeopardy!, somebody has to have claimed that he was. Whoever that person is, if Hutton Gibson and Jeopardy! are mentioned in the same sentence, the claimer's name should be part of the sentence, too. Saying that something is "widely reported" is textbook weasel. The question is: How do we know (or think we know) that Hutton Gibson was on Jeopardy!? Somebody had to say so, initially. Who was that person?

As for Burns Cameron, The Jeopardy! Book (an official authorized publication) calls him "the greatest player of the 1960s" (page 109). When Art Fleming was asked if he remembered any contestant in particular (interview on page 188), he talks about Burns: "He won everything, including the Tournament of Champions. What a great player he was." Burns's record also let him be brought back for Super Jeopardy! in 1990.

Unless a complete record of contestants from the era is compiled, we cannot discount the possibility that Gibson appeared on Jeopardy!, or even that he won the total that he is reported to have won. And the information that he was alleged to have been on Jeopardy! appears to be notable, so we cannot advocate removal of the section outright. But guidelines call for sourcing to be nailed down, especially on contentious information, and especially in BLPs. I'll be removing any statement that uses language such as "is reported to have". Robert K S 23:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Claisen claims above that Burns Cameron's $11,110 total does not include Tournament of Champions bonus winnings. Cameron has verified that it does, and that he won $7070 in his first five games and $4040 in his ToC. [8] He says there was no ToC purse back in the Fleming days--you just kept whatever you won. The $7070 figure is corroborated by Burns's introduction in his for-charity appearance on the 2000th episode on February 21, 1972, which is currently up on YouTube. Burns says that according to the inscription on his trophy, he made his ToC appearance on October 21, 1966. I have a trip to Washington, D.C. coming up next week and I can scour the NBC Master Books on microfilm at the Library of Congress for the names of the contestants in the 1968 Tournament of Champions, provided that it was held around the same time of the year, two years after Burns's appearance. If I find the ToC, we will have confirmation about whether Hutton Gibson appeared in it or not; at the moment, it appears unlikely that he won the sum currently reported for him on Wikipedia (twenty-some thousand dollars). I have corresponded privately with Wensley Clarkson, whose biography of Hutton Gibson is currently being used as the cited source for the claim that Hutton Gibson appeared on Jeopardy! Here's what he said: "All I can say is that I was told catagorically that Hutton did appear on Jeopardy but I found that info in cuttings from interviews with Mel himself so I would appreciate it if you would let me know if it is not true because I will remove it from all subsequent editions of my book." Robert K S (talk) 08:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I have indeed learned more about Gibson's Jeopardy! appearances from primary sources and have updated the section to reflect my findings. Gibson's winning of the Tournament of Champions is corroborated by a secondary source, Maxene Fabe's TV Game Shows book from 1979. Reports of Gibson having won more than $20,000 on the show are simply implausible; I don't know where such a number could have come from. Back in the Art Fleming days of Jeopardy! there was no purse for the winner besides a $1,000 bonus and a tropical vacation trip; all players kept what they won each game, which was typically a few hundred dollars. Hutton Gibson probably won somewhere between $6,000 and $7,000 total on Jeopardy! There are many good sources indicating that Burns Cameron's cumulative record of $11,110 was never broken during the Art Fleming era, even though his 5-day record of $7070 was broken at least twice. Robert K S (talk) 20:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)